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Walking_Home
Guest
It’s already shown how similar the language describing the violence of lust – is to the language describing the violence of rape.
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Two Hardcore Videoed EWTN Homilies on How to Dress/Act for Mass
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
Can you not see the insulting divisive language on this thread?
If not, I suggest the media is doing a great job in the Kingdom of the world , in making people insensitive to what’s going on.
Are we of the world or of God?
This language is the result of desensitisation in how we treat others who disagree.
It’s absolutely grevious.
If not, I suggest the media is doing a great job in the Kingdom of the world , in making people insensitive to what’s going on.
Are we of the world or of God?
This language is the result of desensitisation in how we treat others who disagree.
It’s absolutely grevious.
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
Absolutely, me too. I came back to the Church a year ago. The tone on this thread is how the non Christian friends of mine speak.
It was like a breath of fresh air to walk into a church and make new friends
WHO held their tongues and attitudes in respectful repose. In the imitation of Jesus.
It was like a breath of fresh air to walk into a church and make new friends
WHO held their tongues and attitudes in respectful repose. In the imitation of Jesus.
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Walking_Home
Guest
I wonder if one of the moderators should pop in…
The tone here is appalling.
Edit: this post wasn’t directed at you Walking_Home. I clicked on the wrong reply button and can’t undo it.
It’s ok --No problem.
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Duesenberg
Guest
Trying to control discussions on modesty is just wrong. Now that I realize some view this topic as one of power and control, I find it all the more wrong to intentionally muffle it.…leave modesty talks to the women, especially women who know the current struggles women are facing…
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Walking_Home
Guest
Insulting/etc. - ha-- like the pot calling the kettle.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Want to see an example of wanting “power and control”. Here it is below.
Modest white top, plain black slacks or skirt and plain black dress shoes.
Simple enough. Simple to enforce too.
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Lea101
Guest
I don’t think you understand. You simply make the same assumption that has been made for years instead of actually listening.
Not all women who wear immodest clothing are trying to incite lust, especially if they’re at church. Especiallyyyy if the clothes they are wearing are relatively ‘normal’ in today’s culture (eg tank tops, skirts that are a little higher than the knees). That’s the first thing men need to get through their heads before they can have a proper discussion on modesty. No point trying to demonize women when they’re genuinely not trying to send you to hell.
Second thing is, there’s no clear modesty guidelines. My guy friends are totally fine with bare shoulders but I can totally find someone here that will generalize and say that men are aroused by it. That’s the big problem here, there’s still confusion over what’s immodest and most women are not here to cater to all of your requests.
Also, every time when modesty is brought up, there’s always the focus on men. Obviously that’s an important aspect, but when you make it all about that, you lose the point of modesty and are kind of emphasising the whole women’s body=sexual stereotype. Not to bash on a group of people, but look at the Muslims, especially in the ME. The catechism made it clear about what modesty should be, and frankly, a lot of people blatantly ignore it and stick to their own opinions on what modesty is. It’s such a toxic way to talk about modesty, especially since it encourages the misconception that guys are very weak at controlling themselves. It’s also a constant reminder that our bodies are constantly being watched by men. Do you honestly think men are told how to avoid lust as much as women are constantly told to avoid dressing in a certain way?
To just attribute it to the mean old nasty feminism is to just look at it toooooooooooo simply. A lot of women here don’t even call themselves a feminist here and are very critical of the movement.
Not all women who wear immodest clothing are trying to incite lust, especially if they’re at church. Especiallyyyy if the clothes they are wearing are relatively ‘normal’ in today’s culture (eg tank tops, skirts that are a little higher than the knees). That’s the first thing men need to get through their heads before they can have a proper discussion on modesty. No point trying to demonize women when they’re genuinely not trying to send you to hell.
Second thing is, there’s no clear modesty guidelines. My guy friends are totally fine with bare shoulders but I can totally find someone here that will generalize and say that men are aroused by it. That’s the big problem here, there’s still confusion over what’s immodest and most women are not here to cater to all of your requests.
Also, every time when modesty is brought up, there’s always the focus on men. Obviously that’s an important aspect, but when you make it all about that, you lose the point of modesty and are kind of emphasising the whole women’s body=sexual stereotype. Not to bash on a group of people, but look at the Muslims, especially in the ME. The catechism made it clear about what modesty should be, and frankly, a lot of people blatantly ignore it and stick to their own opinions on what modesty is. It’s such a toxic way to talk about modesty, especially since it encourages the misconception that guys are very weak at controlling themselves. It’s also a constant reminder that our bodies are constantly being watched by men. Do you honestly think men are told how to avoid lust as much as women are constantly told to avoid dressing in a certain way?
To just attribute it to the mean old nasty feminism is to just look at it toooooooooooo simply. A lot of women here don’t even call themselves a feminist here and are very critical of the movement.
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Lea101
Guest
You can be insulted all you want, honestly. This isn’t a safe space free of opposing views…
People who do not know much about clothing, psychology and women’s POV should not be trying to teach women about modesty. And if they choose to do so, they should not whine about the bitterness that comes because of their ignorance!
People who do not know much about clothing, psychology and women’s POV should not be trying to teach women about modesty. And if they choose to do so, they should not whine about the bitterness that comes because of their ignorance!
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Duesenberg
Guest
I very much agree.@Walking_Home, that comment is inappropriate.
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Duesenberg
Guest
Who would have known that the vehement backlash by some at the mere discussion of “How to Dress/Act for Mass” is really about power/control and the practical manifestation of sexism/radical feminism? I certainly did not know!
I really have long wondered why some went so far off the deep end in their attacks of mindful and largely courteous discussions of this topic – both online and in person? Now I have a much better idea. This truly is a revelation and it gives good insight into why “How to Dress/Act for Mass” is such a difficult issue for so many parishes.
I really have long wondered why some went so far off the deep end in their attacks of mindful and largely courteous discussions of this topic – both online and in person? Now I have a much better idea. This truly is a revelation and it gives good insight into why “How to Dress/Act for Mass” is such a difficult issue for so many parishes.
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RandomAlias
Guest
Let us pray…
Heavenly Father, in this forum may we be guided by your wisdom, your love, and the abiding presence of your Spirit. Help us to grow in faith, seek the truth, serve one another, and bring out the best in each other, and in this way give glory to you. We ask this through Christ our Lord.
Amen.
Heavenly Father, in this forum may we be guided by your wisdom, your love, and the abiding presence of your Spirit. Help us to grow in faith, seek the truth, serve one another, and bring out the best in each other, and in this way give glory to you. We ask this through Christ our Lord.
Amen.
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alice24
Guest
No, that is not sad, this is the only option. Should I care for people´s thoughts on modesty that aren´t my own? no. I can´t be ok with every different standart somene defines. There is no dogma regarding t-shirts, so I am free to act this out as it is reasonable for me and the people I like to have in my life.
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Duesenberg
Guest
It’s very sad. “Modest dress” is not a nebulous thing as you suggest. It comes down to common sense – so long as one has been properly formed. Still some simply do not care if they offend others. It’s all about themselves…No, that is not sad, this is the only option. Should I care for people´s thoughts on modesty that aren´t my own? no. I can´t be ok with every different standart somene defines. There is no dogma regarding t-shirts, so I am free to act this out as it is reasonable for me and the people I like to have in my life.
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alice24
Guest
I think it is not that easy. I don´t know if you have closer contact with different cultures, but really, those modesty definitions aren´t shared by all who enjoyed a good mental and spiritual education. When I have dinner with christian people from Iran, China, Germany and Brasilia there will be as many deifferent standarts regarding modesty as people sitting around the table. In the consequence, everyone needs to define own standarts. I take care they match the needs of the community I live within so far that I won´t hurt feelings to much, but one can´t really match all standarts in the world by the same time. This is not offending, this is the result of a pluralistic world, and I don´t think this is bad.
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Duesenberg
Guest
Sure it is. You’re the one trying to complicate things.I think it is not that easy. I don´t know if you have closer contact with different cultures
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alice24
Guest
Sorry, but you didn´t respond to my point - it is a bit to easy to say “you complicate things” without responding to the given argument.
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DarkLight
Guest
I think a lot of the backlash is that, many of us have learned, if you set your standard as “anything that attracts a man’s attention is immodest”, some of us wouldn’t be able to leave our houses in anything short of a spacesuit.
I’m another on the list of well endowed women, and I’m fairly small overall with a classic hourglass figure. I can tell you that there simply is nothing that will completely prevent a man from lusting. I have had lustful remarks directed my way many times in my winter coat and boots - and given that I wore an oversize coat that buttons up to my neck and extends to my knees, and boots that went up to my knees, I really can’t see any way of that being immodest.
I don’t think there’s no purpose to modesty, but I think that framing it in terms of male lust isn’t really a good idea. Mostly because it’s an impossible standard to some up with something no man will lust after. I think a lot of us have also had experiences where the idea of “modesty” was used to shame us, not even for being immodest, but for being female or for having a certain type of body, or for being the victim of bad behavior on the part of a man. I think that’s a lot of the resistance - we want to be able to just go to Mass in normal clothes for our cultural context without it being a big deal.
I’m another on the list of well endowed women, and I’m fairly small overall with a classic hourglass figure. I can tell you that there simply is nothing that will completely prevent a man from lusting. I have had lustful remarks directed my way many times in my winter coat and boots - and given that I wore an oversize coat that buttons up to my neck and extends to my knees, and boots that went up to my knees, I really can’t see any way of that being immodest.
I don’t think there’s no purpose to modesty, but I think that framing it in terms of male lust isn’t really a good idea. Mostly because it’s an impossible standard to some up with something no man will lust after. I think a lot of us have also had experiences where the idea of “modesty” was used to shame us, not even for being immodest, but for being female or for having a certain type of body, or for being the victim of bad behavior on the part of a man. I think that’s a lot of the resistance - we want to be able to just go to Mass in normal clothes for our cultural context without it being a big deal.
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Lea101
Guest
I don’t think ‘white’ has anything to do with it. It’s more to do with a group of people who can’t relate to another group of people when it comes to modesty.
Side note: I think (edit: most, in case I offend LOL) men are quite used to blaming immodesty for their sins. Of course women who dress a certain way with the intention to incite lust are in the wrong too (and that there’s nothing wrong in wanting them to stop), but I feel like men (and women) need to also start learning how to control themselves instead of just expecting everyone else to change. It’s almost like the people who cry because there’s no TW label on everything, in a way. I’ve always liked modesty talks that combines
these two.
Side note: I think (edit: most, in case I offend LOL) men are quite used to blaming immodesty for their sins. Of course women who dress a certain way with the intention to incite lust are in the wrong too (and that there’s nothing wrong in wanting them to stop), but I feel like men (and women) need to also start learning how to control themselves instead of just expecting everyone else to change. It’s almost like the people who cry because there’s no TW label on everything, in a way. I’ve always liked modesty talks that combines
these two.
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Duesenberg
Guest
No, I don’t think that’s true. I’ve come to believe that the harsh backlash is all about power, control and sexism.I think a lot of the backlash is that, many of us have learned, if you set your standard as “anything that attracts a man’s attention is immodest”, some of us wouldn’t be able to leave our houses in anything short of a spacesuit.
Both men and women lust. What you describe is modest clothing. It’s a long was from immodest clothing that’s just wrong to wear to the Mass.I’m another on the list of well endowed women, and I’m fairly small overall with a classic hourglass figure. I can tell you that there simply is nothing that will completely prevent a man from lusting. I have had lustful remarks directed my way many times in my winter coat and boots - and given that I wore an oversize coat that buttons up to my neck and extends to my knees, and boots that went up to my knees, I really can’t see any way of that being immodest.
Wow, that is overtly sexist! No wonder so many women bristle at discussions about wearing modest clothing to Mass.I think a lot of us have also had experiences where the idea of “modesty” was used to shame us, not even for being immodest, but for being female…
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