Two lesbians raised a baby and this is what they got.

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I’ve reported your post for lack of charity; if you wish to remain an active member of this site, I suggest you review the forum rules.
I’m afraid this may be my fault. I was arguing with some people on youtube (some Catholics and some not) that had no clue what the Catholic teaching was and were bashing us based on poor understanding, so I referred them here (the 500 character limit wasn’t enough to explain entire concepts and refutations of claims against the Church). Youtube is an entirely different world where people refer to anyone who disagrees as Hitler or words I cannot say on here. I apologize if anyone on here was offended. I was hoping that if they actually came here and understood what Catholicism really was that they might understand more fully. I was probably wrong.

I apologize if anyone was offended by the users that I referred here. It amazes me that people can’t disagree or debate a topic without becoming offensive.

Once again, I apologize if anyone I referred here offended anyone.
 
Using children who grow up to be well-adjusted adults later in life is a bit misleading, considering that children from several backgrounds can become well adjusted as adults. Off the top of my head, I can think of someone whose father was a rapist and beat his own children. That child turned out quite fine as an adult. Does that mean we can condone his father’s behavior?

I acknowledge the above is an extreme example, so lets scale this back a bit. You, and others, suggest that two members of the same-sex (hence forth to be named “Couple A”) can raise a child just as well as two members of the opposite sex (hence forth to be named “Couple B”).

There’s a couple of fundamental differences between the two couples. For one, Couple A lacks the biological, philosophical, and psychological unitive aspect. You may argue that they would be united through the psychological, I would argue that the biological and philosophical weighs more heavily in this case. Men, to be crude about it, are built to give. Women, to receive. We see this in the procreative aspect of sex, where a man literally gives himself (and his sperm) to a woman, and the results can produce a child. At some point that child will, literally, become the fruit of her labour. Psychologically speaking, Couple A can be unified in a sense, however when you factor in the philosophical and biological I would question that unity.

This of course is not counting the natural biological need of a species to procreate. And before you say “animals have homosexual relations in the wild”, I want to remind those who will read this comment that some animals will also instinctively will eat their young. So unless you’re willing to also advocate for the consumption of human babies, lets leave “animals do it in the wild” at the door step.

Unless we want to get into a metaphysical discussion about how man is different than the other animals, and that philosophically speaking we are a cut above them via several theories, including Natural Selection and Survival of the Fittest.

These things fall under the philosophical term “natural law”, that there are laws that are simply there, and there is no civil laws or thoughts that can change them. Simplest natural law to comprehend? The Law of Gravity. Second? Any of Newton’s Laws.

Lets say though, that these differences don’t matter. That what I mentioned above is not insurmountable, and we discard natural law for a moment. Simplified; all the differences between Couple A and Couple B amount to are genders and body parts. We begin to expand from the concept of one man + one woman, and go to same-sex couples. We are already seeing people, including government committees, begin looking at relaxing polygamy laws to allow men to have multiple wives (and women multiple husbands). We will ignore for the time being that the love a man has for his wife is unique, and to divide that between several different women is to give them an inferior and watered down version of that love (if you have three wives, you are giving them at least 1/3 of the love you could, and if you give them more someone else of the three suffer). Oh sure, the women can all say they’re happy. And hey, maybe they are! I would take up the argument, and I think some psychologists will agree with me, there’s self-esteem issues at play or they’ve simply been taken in by a charming man who seeks to take advantage of multiple woman at the same time (which isn’t charming, it’s actually sociopathic).

The move is on to have this legalized, because what happens in the bed room stays in the bed room. People have the right to do as they please, unless it is going to hurt someone, and they shouldn’t have to pay any consequences. An example of this is the big chase to stop HIV, and lately an even larger push to stop HPV and are promoting a vaccine (because condoms can’t stop HPV, it seems. They also fail 16% in general, but that’s neither here nor there). People are forcing the issue on the vaccine simply due to how it’s transmitted. There is an effort to systematically remove any complications or inconveniences when it comes to sex. Birth control is being used to regulate conception, condoms being used to prevent conception and STI’s, and of course the next logical step is abortion to remove the fetus. We cure AIDS, we cure HPV that’s wonderful. Something new will rise and take it’s place, which will start this whole cycle all over again.

Outside of blood transfusions, look at how HIV is spread. Drug needles and sex. HPV, straight up sex. Maybe if we tried to accept the fact that consequences will happen and try to address behavioral patterns, things could get better. The money spent on the HPV vaccine and associated research sure could feed a lot of poor people.
 
Anyway, I digress. Lets introduce a third couple into this, Couple C. There’s something different about Couple C, different than Couples A and B.

Differences Between Couple A and B: Gender.
Differences Between Couple B and C: Age.

There’s an age gap between the lovers in Couple C. The woman is older than the man. In this case, by fifteen years. You may think, “how nice it is that a 70 year old woman can find love with a 62 year old man”. When, in actuality, it could also be a 20 year old female who is in love and attracted to her friend’s 12 year old brother. The 12 year old male has hit puberty earlier than his peers, lets say. Lets now say that both of them consent to the relationship, and are in love with each other. Should we stop them? We can at this point in time, that’s “statutory rape” (even though there’s consent. But should the law be struck down so that these two lovers can do so without criminal action? Again, the only difference is the age gap and the timing. Flip it around, how about a 20 year old man and a 12 year old woman?

Should Couple C be prevented from their love?

Of course they should. Mostly everyone at this point is in agreement it’s wrong. People would say “it’s not right”, which is a nice way of saying “it’s not natural”. But the same arguments “I was born this way”, “we’re not hurting anyone”, “we’re both choosing freely”, “what happens in our bedroom is our business”, “I can’t help how I feel”, “it’s instinct”, “my parents did XYZ”, “so and so experts say that it’s fine!” that people use to advocate same-sex marriages can be applied to minor/adult relationships.

My point is, there are several logical reasons why one can be opposed to same-sex marriage. As you can see, I listed a few here. Please note throughout this entire post, I did not mention the theological at all. No mention of the Bible, no mention of any church’s teaching. This is all done through the philosophical, biological, psychological, and systematic thinking. Ironically, said the philosophical, biological, psychological, and systematic thinking is what formed one church’s teaching on this topic, meaning that those four things actually formed the theological opinion in this case. In what will be the only religious thing in this post:

This has been the Catholic Church’s point all along for 2000+ years.
 
front.moveon.org/two-lesbians-raised-a-baby-and-this-is-what-they-got/#.Ttf2ixAorEr.facebook

This video has been spreading like wildfire on Facebook. I’m afraid we are in a world of trouble. But I would like to know what some of you have to say?

I would say why dos t the dad get any credit? Yea the kids smart that would be more along the lines of genes wouldn’t you think? Two woman raising a boy has nothing to do with how smart the kid turned out to be.
Anyway I think the underline issue is the video seeks to silent those who claim children are better off being raised by a mother and father. I semply would just say he has a right to his father and even though he turned out to be a fine young man. He was still deprived of his basic right to be raised by a father.

Idk this is a tough one?
I agree with you. Just because the guy has so far “turned out allright” does NOT mean he hasn’t been affected by his lack of male parenting. Or that he may not have problems with his own children (if he has any) in the future.
 
I’m afraid this may be my fault. I was arguing with some people on youtube (some Catholics and some not) that had no clue what the Catholic teaching was and were bashing us based on poor understanding, so I referred them here (the 500 character limit wasn’t enough to explain entire concepts and refutations of claims against the Church). Youtube is an entirely different world where people refer to anyone who disagrees as Hitler or words I cannot say on here. I apologize if anyone on here was offended. I was hoping that if they actually came here and understood what Catholicism really was that they might understand more fully. I was probably wrong.

I apologize if anyone was offended by the users that I referred here. It amazes me that people can’t disagree or debate a topic without becoming offensive.

Once again, I apologize if anyone I referred here offended anyone.
You don’t have to apologize; I know how Youtube is and I hardly ever even read the comments because many are so offensive and tasteless. It’s such a shame that people feel as though they can abandon all charity and manners as soon as they sit down behind a computer, as though the people they are talking to on the other side aren’t real.
 
What is the “this” they got?

He’s a deeply uninteresting leftist college student with a mediocre fashion sense, mooing bromides into a microphone. Naturally the mass media gets whipped up about it. In what way is this spindly kid a disaster for us?

Sounds to me that, like most people in this day and age, they raised a boring kid with moderate talents and wholly unquestioned utilitarian prejudices. He is in short exactly like everyone I’ve ever met in college. Pfeh.

Like most liberals, he clearly doesn’t know the first damn thing about what the real argument (i.e., not the crummy lunatic Protestant argument) against gay marriage is, if he thinks he is somehow evidence that it’s false.

I mean Hell, I scored in the 99th percentile on the GREs. Nobody imagines this is evidence against gay marriage.
I totally disagree with this young man’s propositions-------------most everybody here knows me well enough to know I am totally in line with Catholic teaching-----------

But I just think your assesment of the guy was (let’s say) a “tad uncharitable?”

Let’s remember some charity and civility here please. The fact he is totally wrong does not mean we have a right to sort of comtemptously dismiss him.
What we need is christian compassion, and pray that he will come to know the TRUTH, in the bosom of Holy Mother Church.

Just saying.

Everybody-----let’s step back a little and stick to the facts of the Church, not name-calling.
 
If there are differences in the outcomes for children who are raised by different combinations of adults, the differences will reveal themselves as differences in the average incidence of various characteristics. One child tells us nothing except that (in this case) he is within the range of children raised by lesbian parents. Whether 100% share any of his particular characteristics, or 1%, we can’t say. So waht can we read into the viral explosion of this video? well, I think it indicates the extreme nature of the attack on lesbian and gay relationships by (especially American) Catholics and other religious people. They have created a sense that it is somehow remarkable that a child of lesbians ends up ok. As people realise this is not the case, the religious argument weakens. Religious people get angrier, and their arguments get still less credible. Why not stick to saying you are opposed to lesbian sex, and leave discussion of outcomes to empirical studies?
 
They have created a sense that it is somehow remarkable that a child of lesbians ends up ok.
Generalization. Besides, who is saying that kids raised by gays will be thieving, lying murderers working as garbage men?

Sexuality is but one facet of the morality spectrum.
 
front.moveon.org/two-lesbians-raised-a-baby-and-this-is-what-they-got/#.Ttf2ixAorEr.facebook

This video has been spreading like wildfire on Facebook. I’m afraid we are in a world of trouble. But I would like to know what some of you have to say?

I would say why dos t the dad get any credit? Yea the kids smart that would be more along the lines of genes wouldn’t you think? Two woman raising a boy has nothing to do with how smart the kid turned out to be.
Anyway I think the underline issue is the video seeks to silent those who claim children are better off being raised by a mother and father. I semply would just say he has a right to his father and even though he turned out to be a fine young man. He was still deprived of his basic right to be raised by a father.

Idk this is a tough one?
And he also has a right to two fathers or two mothers. It was the sperm that made a good man it was his mothers. Your undermining his up bringing and the love he has for his family.
Don’t Hate.
 
There’s a couple of fundamental differences between the two couples. For one, Couple A lacks the biological, philosophical, and psychological unitive aspect. You may argue that they would be united through the psychological, I would argue that the biological and philosophical weighs more heavily in this case. Men, to be crude about it, are built to give. Women, to receive. We see this in the procreative aspect of sex, where a man literally gives himself (and his sperm) to a woman, and the results can produce a child. At some point that child will, literally, become the fruit of her labour. Psychologically speaking, Couple A can be unified in a sense, however when you factor in the philosophical and biological I would question that unity.

This of course is not counting the natural biological need of a species to procreate. And before you say “animals have homosexual relations in the wild”, I want to remind those who will read this comment that some animals will also instinctively will eat their young. So unless you’re willing to also advocate for the consumption of human babies, lets leave “animals do it in the wild” at the door step.

Unless we want to get into a metaphysical discussion about how man is different than the other animals, and that philosophically speaking we are a cut above them via several theories, including Natural Selection and Survival of the Fittest.

**These things fall under the philosophical term “natural law”, that there are laws that are simply there, and there is no civil laws or thoughts that can change them. Simplest natural law to comprehend? The Law of Gravity. Second? Any of Newton’s Laws. **



Outside of blood transfusions, look at how HIV is spread. Drug needles and sex. HPV, straight up sex. Maybe if we tried to accept the fact that consequences will happen and try to address behavioral patterns, things could get better. The money spent on the HPV vaccine and associated research sure could feed a lot of poor people.
Melchior, you made a pretty good post and covered some great points. However, I need to point a few things out to you and what I think needs clarifying is based on those parts of your post which I have highlighted.

Those aspects of the physical sciences we adduce to be “laws” we do not necessarily include in what we call Natural Law. The Law of Gravity, the Laws of Thermodynamics, and other scientific laws are indeed natural laws by dint of the fact that they are naturally occuring, or that they exist in nature. However, Natural Law in a Philosophical and Theological sense does not include these physical laws. It certainly takes an account of them, because, after all, Natural Law enquiry must include mankind’s place in the natural world. The Law of Gravity and the Laws of Thermodynamics and the fact that copper always conducts electricity are examples of how objective facts about the world we live in can be discerned. Take notice of the use of that word “discerned”, because not all of Natural Law is so easily recognised as, say, the Law of Gravity. Mankind has always suspected that there is an underlying order in a world that seemed often chaotic. The Stoics, the athenian Philosophers, the Romans and then people like Thomas Aquinas percieved it. The worldview, particularly in the West, has changed very quickly since the Renaissance. From a world which seemed mostly chaotic, there emerged an unsuspected underlying order, revealed by physics, chemistry, biology, geology and other sciences.

Natural Law, as we use it, refers to more than simply the laws of nature and the underlying order in the world. It also includes human nature and man’s place qua man in the natural order of things. It leads to deliberations of Natural Law as a Legal system and Natural Law as a Moral system. Natural Law moral theory says that there is an overlap and that moral imperatives are authoritative because of their moral content.

From what is discerned of mankind’s nature and the way he lives in the natural world, descriptive ethics give rise to descriptions of how mankind behaves. From this, in turn, normative ethics then tell us how man ought to live and behave. Thus, we go from what is, to what ought to be. Therein lies the dificulty, because mankind relies on his reason and intellect to discern what is right and proper, based on what is discerned about the natural world, about mankind’s place in it and about the very nature of mankind itself.

Aquinas tells us that the rational nature of human beings is what defines moral law: According to him, human beings are by nature rational beings, it is morally appropriate that they should behave in a way that conforms to their rational nature. Consequently, Aquinas derives the moral law from the nature of human beings and that is why it is called “natural law”. According to the Stoics, Aristotle, Rome’s Cicero, Aquinas and a multitude of more contemporary philosophers and Theologians, Natural Law is ethical as well as physical law; and man discerns such law through the use of his reason. Moral conduct is conduct which is in accordance with right reason.

It was Aristotle and Aquinas, centuries apart, who both discerned that reason is what places man above the animals, who are bound indeed by the laws of nature. mankind, however, has free will and can be whatever he chooses. Ethical behaviour should, therefore, aim to allow mankind to achieve his right and proper ‘ends’ as discerned by the use of right reason. That last sentence of yours which I bolded highlights just why the use of right reason needs to be reapplied to human behaviour.
 
Can we avoid calling homosexuals a “moral evil.”

Just say a child needs a mother and a father and freaking leave it at that…

Homosexuality is just one sin and it’s no worse than any other… I’m so tired of people here on CAF who feel it’s their God given right to destroy the homosexuals… :mad:
Right on bud! 👍
 
I won’t believe for a second that a sound individual can be brought up without a father figure. Having lost my father at the age of 12, I have had a long while to think of this.

I pity the children, they are born into lies to accept them as true. They are the really unfortunate ones.
That is completely different from being brought into existence through artificial insemination. I lost my mother at age 10 and was raised by my father, and yes, it has been a deficit in my life not to have had her. Of course one can be brought up in a one-parent household, it is not optimum by any means, and when it happens by chance, again, it is wholly and totally different from being CREATED to be raised by same-sex gay or lesbian parents. The relationships are always gong to be distorted.

Is living with gay parents better than a sharp stick in the eye? Undoubtedly. Is it optimum? No. Is it what God wants? He says it is not, in His Word.
 
I’m afraid this may be my fault. I was arguing with some people on youtube (some Catholics and some not) that had no clue what the Catholic teaching was and were bashing us based on poor understanding, so I referred them here (the 500 character limit wasn’t enough to explain entire concepts and refutations of claims against the Church). Youtube is an entirely different world where people refer to anyone who disagrees as Hitler or words I cannot say on here. I apologize if anyone on here was offended. I was hoping that if they actually came here and understood what Catholicism really was that they might understand more fully. I was probably wrong.

I apologize if anyone was offended by the users that I referred here. It amazes me that people can’t disagree or debate a topic without becoming offensive.

Once again, I apologize if anyone I referred here offended anyone.
:eek::eek:

Please don’t do that again! We’ll get all sorts of trolls from YouTube!! Don’t you read the comments on there??? Even very benign videos will start flame wars!
 
:eek::eek:

Please don’t do that again! We’ll get all sorts of trolls from YouTube!! Don’t you read the comments on there??? Even very benign videos will start flame wars!
The people I referred here were actually sincere about it. It didn’t even cross my mind that there were others out there who weren’t being sincere that I opened the door for. I sometimes forget what the real world is like.

I apologize, however, and I don’t have any intentions of doing it again.
 
I totally disagree with this young man’s propositions-------------most everybody here knows me well enough to know I am totally in line with Catholic teaching-----------

But I just think your assesment of the guy was (let’s say) a “tad uncharitable?”

Let’s remember some charity and civility here please. The fact he is totally wrong does not mean we have a right to sort of comtemptously dismiss him.
What we need is christian compassion, and pray that he will come to know the TRUTH, in the bosom of Holy Mother Church.

Just saying.

Everybody-----let’s step back a little and stick to the facts of the Church, not name-calling.
I completely agree with you! This thread has devolved into far more name calling than thoughtful discussion.
 
:eek::eek:

Please don’t do that again! We’ll get all sorts of trolls from YouTube!! Don’t you read the comments on there??? Even very benign videos will start flame wars!
Oh please don’t talk about that website… It looks terrible now… Giving me nightmares with how badly designed it now is…👍

Perhaps that’s how the Lord has decided to help put a stop to the “flame wars”. A terrible “new edge” design does tend to take the wind out of things for a while.

Eventually we will get use to it, and they will probably continue “flaming” with a vengence but at least it’s over just for now as everyone complains about the “new edge” site.
 
Well, if this young man marries a woman and has children, will he be able to be a good father since he did not have one as an example? Will he treat his wife well?

Yeah, he “turned out good” for now, but let’s see how his own children and his marriage turn out.
The big question is IF he marries a woman. What I’ve noticed with my “clients” who were raised by their mother, and had either no or little contact with their father have issues with relationships with women
 
I’m not actually sure what this video is trying to prove? That children raised by homosexuals can be well-spoken, or can attend “The University” :yawn::yawn:.

If anything the guy seems a little prideful and full of his ideas. No, actually all this video shows what years of indoctrination and brainwashing can do to a child.

What about these testimonies?

youtube.com/watch?v=X3vh33LwT-0&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=zy9wbfm_iH8&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=X60RZ6zm8LU&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=p_wXcCCfE2U&list=PLB0192509974B4210&index=1&feature=plpp_video

youtube.com/watch?v=mInH0Ev5Ldo&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=gamxNTs2Nro&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=wnwZKHRDFnY&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=A1SAkpEyUrk&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=rLFAiTlGahE&feature=related

Why don’t these videos get more coverage? Why don’t these videos get places on Facebook and put all over the web?

Do not fall for the lies people, wolves in sheep’s clothing.
 
What is the “this” they got?

He’s a deeply uninteresting leftist college student with a mediocre fashion sense, mooing bromides into a microphone. Naturally the mass media gets whipped up about it. In what way is this spindly kid a disaster for us?

Sounds to me that, like most people in this day and age, they raised a boring kid with moderate talents and wholly unquestioned utilitarian prejudices. He is in short exactly like everyone I’ve ever met in college. Pfeh.

Like most liberals, he clearly doesn’t know the first damn thing about what the real argument (i.e., not the crummy lunatic Protestant argument) against gay marriage is, if he thinks he is somehow evidence that it’s false.

I mean Hell, I scored in the 99th percentile on the GREs. Nobody imagines this is evidence against gay marriage.
Amen!
 
Stuff like this is just meant for knee jerk reactions. Imagine someone posted a video of some criminal who was raised by two lesbians, people would say it means nothing. This means nothing.

If someone has a stable childhood by being raised by two same sex parents than fine, but no one can honestly disagree that a stable mother and father household is the ideal. Yet even some with a mom and dad don’t get to have a stable childhood.

Someone should give this guy a cookie!
 
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