Two more ways to convince a skeptic that God is real

[Lily_Bernans]

PA knows all that. At any rate, you will never make any headway; she is an atheist, who is probably trying to convince you God does not exist:

50.97.102.67/showthread.php?t=965431&page=73

 

[Pallas_Athene]

It takes eight minutes for light from the Sun to reach us, so the Sun could have disappeared five minutes ago and you won’t know for another 3 minutes. Funny thing, time.

Ok. So since there is always a time delay between picking up a pebble and this fact registering in my brain… does it follow that I cannot “really” know that the pebble exists, since it could have somehow disintegrated during the time that the nerves propagated the information.

It is nice to be skeptical, but “universal skepticism” does not lead anywhere. And I would gladly wait 8 minutes for God to pay me a visit.

btw I’m so much of a skeptic I could never believe in the god of your OP scenarios, to me that would raise a big red flag, it’s exactly the kind of trick a Uri Geller or Lior Suchard would do, maybe on a grander scale, but stage magic all the same.

You would not need to believe, you would KNOW. No stage magician can see the future. That was the whole point.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

God is not a stone. He takes a bit more work if you want to have knowledge of him.

Stone is something you apparently already have faith in, believe in and have knowledge of. Think back to when you learned what a stone was. As a child you had no knowledge of it. How did that process work? In all cases you will find that the pattern of a human gaining knowledge of new things is basically: faith, followed by belief, followed by experience-based knowledge.

Children first gain ‘object permanence’ when they begin to have faith that an object still exists even when it goes behind something and can’t be seen. They learn next to believe in things as being real even when they are not around them. They come to knowledge over time after having many experiences with the object and understand how it relates to their world.

When you learned math, at first it was not clear what the point was. But you had have faith in your teachers or parents when they told you that it was important, and you chose to continue. After a while you began to believe in the operations as being consistent and having some value. After time you gained new knowledge like the Pathagorian theorem based on this math.

There are scientists working to find a cure for cancer right now. They have FAITH that one exists (even though it doesn’t yet). After making some strides, perhaps in a certain type of cancer, they begin to beleive in the cure being possible. That changes their approach to being more deliberate and determined. Finally, after testing the treatment and seeing it work and understanding the mechanisms they come to have knowledge of their new cure.

These are examples of the process of the human mind coming to knowledge of something new to them. It happens through faith, belief and finally experience-based knowledge.

You are trying to jump to right knowledge of God first. But nothing that you have learned has ever worked that way. Even your knowledge of Stone. It has always involved the earlier steps. God is much more difficult because he has so many more facets and features. It will take much more effort on your part to come to have knowledge of him. if you don’t have faith in him, then you may never get there. And no that is not a Charlatan’s trick, that is how all knowledge is acquired.

Stones, math, cures for cancer all belong to the natural world that humans inhabit. God does not. He is the Creator of that world (though not of sinful things). We can know that God exists, but we cannot know what, exactly, he is. Believers can experience God, but they cannot prove that experience to a non-believer.

Faith is a gift. It seems a little strange to me that some are so gifted and others not, but desire for faith is also faith.

A skeptic will never be convinced of the existence of God until he or she comes to God himself or herself. The whole world could be convinced, but the skeptic would remain skeptical until something brought him or her to God. And if it never did, well, I’m not sure what the afterlife would bring. No one is sure.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

You get proof of God’s existence through your heart and soul, not by playing silly little parlor games (she said indignantly!)

Unfortunately my heart is busy pumping my blood, and no matter how hard I tried, I could not find my “soul”. I don’t even know what that soul is supposed to be.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Unfortunately my heart is busy pumping my blood, and no matter how hard I tried, I could not find my “soul”. I don’t even know what that soul is supposed to be.

What is mind? Intelligence? Why are some people so much more intelligent than others, even when they are not better educated? I could play anything on the violin at age five; I was a musical prodigy, who, in one year, could out-play people who had been practicing ten, twenty years, and there is proof of it because there exists video of the five-year-old me playing. Why was I able to do that when most people struggle for years to play one composition imperfectly? Where is whatever makes me a musical prodigy located in my body? And why the violin?

 

[Pallas_Athene]

What is mind? Intelligence? Why are some people so much more intelligent than others, even when they are not better educated? I could play anything on the violin at age five; I was a musical prodigy, who, in one year, could out-play people who had been practicing ten, twenty years, and there is proof of it because there exists video of the five-year-old me playing. Why was I able to do that when most people struggle for years to play one composition imperfectly? Where is whatever makes me a musical prodigy located in my body? And why the violin?

That is wonderful. But what is the significance? That there are many things we don’t know? That is a given. So, what?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Unfortunately my heart is busy pumping my blood, and no matter how hard I tried, I could not find my “soul”. I don’t even know what that soul is supposed to be.

Well I feel sorry for you.

 

[Viki63]

As said before, ONLY God can give evidence of his existence. No human person or institution is qualified to speak for God. So here I will present two surefire methods which God could apply (if he wanted to - Insh’ Allah) to convince any skeptic that he exists.

How about making the sun dance in the sky before the witness of 30,000 to 100,000 people?

Or imprinting an image on Juan Diego’s tilma, with microscopic images of people visible in the eyes, an image made by no known means.

or turning wine to blood and bread to heart tissue, in the miracle of Lanciano?

All these have been witnessed, and the latter two can still be seen and studied. These are much more inventive than guessing lottery numbers. But many people are still not convinced. Does God have to do a miracle for each sceptic individually? Seems a lot to ask.

.

 

[Frankenfurter]

Faith is a gift. It seems a little strange to me that some are so gifted and others not, but desire for faith is also faith.

A skeptic will never be convinced of the existence of God until he or she comes to God himself or herself.

The humble prayer for faith itself is the first step. I have never known anyone who was denied the gift of faith when they asked God for it. God seems to be generous with it.

But a closed hand can not receive a gift.

Our OP wants the gift without first opening her hand.

I have known and converted many Atheists. It is often the case that the central issue is fear. Fear of putting time and effort into something and finding out that it was NOT true after all. That is a rational fear. So to save time and effort, they look for the proof up front and only put effort into those things they can be sure of. This is a rationale, but self limiting strategy. I accept it.

What I don’t accept is when they attempt to bring down others, who have had a different strategy in life, and actually have taken some risks, and ended up in places that the Atheist can’t go.

With risks come rewards.

Some prefer to try and cheat.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Well I feel sorry for you.

Very kind of you. As they say, imitation is the greatest form of flattery. So all I can do is to emulate you, and feel sorry for you.

Does God have to do a miracle for each sceptic individually? Seems a lot to ask…

Is God too busy? Or does he think that “one size fits all”?

The humble prayer for faith itself is the first step. I have never known anyone who was denied the gift of faith when they asked God for it. God seems to be generous with it.

I just happened to be a believer for quite a long time. And I even prayed. But I never received “faith”. So God might be tight-fisted in certain cases.

I am willing to receive God and his gift if he chooses to bestow it on me. So, using your metaphor, my “palm” is open. And it has been for quite a long time. People in your camp usually (ahem, usually? always!) put the blame on me. I did not wait long enough, or was not sincere enough, or was “demanding” that God should meet me on my turf, etc… they always blame the one who did not get the “gift”… and then they are surprised when they are not taken seriously any more.

 

[Frankenfurter]

I just happened to be a believer for quite a long time. And I even prayed. But I never received “faith”. So God might be tight-fisted in certain cases.

I am willing to receive God and his gift if he chooses to bestow it on me. So, using your metaphor, my “palm” is open. And it has been for quite a long time.

Really? So then why are you posting childish attempts to prove God’s existence? What is the purpose? I once knew an Atheist who told me he would believe in God if God would produce a bucket of fried chicken for him right now! When it didn’t happen he took this as proof of God’s non existence. I am not saying that you are that bad, but based on your posts it is hard to take your claim of once being a prayerful believer seriously I’m afraid.

If you prayed, did you pray for faith? That is the first step. Most people try to skip that one, you know, and go straight for the fried chicken .

 

[Lily_Bernans]

The humble prayer for faith itself is the first step. I have never known anyone who was denied the gift of faith when they asked God for it. God seems to be generous with it.

But a closed hand can not receive a gift.

Our OP wants the gift without first opening her hand.

I have known and converted many Atheists. It is often the case that the central issue is fear. Fear of putting time and effort into something and finding out that it was NOT true after all. That is a rational fear. So to save time and effort, they look for the proof up front and only put effort into those things they can be sure of. This is a rationale, but self limiting strategy. I accept it.

What I don’t accept is when they attempt to bring down others, who have had a different strategy in life, and actually have taken some risks, and ended up in places that the Atheist can’t go.

With risks come rewards.

Some prefer to try and cheat.

Yes, that is true. You are right.

The OP wants the gift of faith without even opening her hand to receive the gift. She seems to want to tell God how he should confer the gift upon her. None of us can “tell God what to do” or “how to do it.” However, if she requires a certain kind of proof that is to her liking, I guess she will just have to remain an atheist. God gave her the free will to do so. I am not one to attempt to take anyone’s free will away.

I believe as you do. If someone genuinely wants to know about Christ and opens their heart to him, I don’t mind spending time conversing with them. However, if they are just attempting to destroy my faith, which is a fruitless task for them, I would say that person and I should simply part company.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

That is wonderful. But what is the significance? That there are many things we don’t know? That is a given. So, what?

There are many things we don’t know. You don’t know where to find the soul. I do know. However, I do not know what made me a musical prodigy, able to play anything on the violin by age five, when most people cannot. Just because we can’t locate something does not mean it does not exist. You said that yourself, that it is a “given.”

 

[Lily_Bernans]

To say there has never been evidence of the existence of God is a logically indefensible position. To defend it logically, one would have to be aware of all the evidence for the existence of God through all time, and one cannot be aware of that. By saying “there is no evidence or proof of the existence of God,” one is asserting a universal negative that is indefensible. Atheists are saying, “Provide me with evidence of the existence of God, however, because I do not believe in God, I will dismiss any evidence you provide because it is not consistent with my beliefs.”

Waste of time, really. Parlor games, as one poster said, and not very entertaining ones at that.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Really? So then why are you posting childish attempts to prove God’s existence?

I want to help God to convince the skeptics. And at the same time point out that the quoted phrase is not true.

If you prayed, did you pray for faith? That is the first step. Most people try to skip that one, you know, and go straight for the fried chicken .

Buddy, I was a child back then. I did not even know the word “faith”. But children are gullible, they swallow whatever the authorities tell them, so I believed that there is good, loving deity “up there”. So, yes, I tried to pray for a few specific abilities, because I already was aware of starving children, and I wanted to help them. And - as always - nothing happened. That was the first “crack” in the wall of my beliefs. Later those cracks became gaping holes, and finally the whole wall came down.

You don’t know where to find the soul. I do know.

Awesome. Why don’t you share it?

To say there has never been evidence of the existence of God is a logically indefensible position.

Nothing that is presented as evidence today. And during the ages the attempts should have “distilled” into a usable form.

Atheists are saying, “Provide me with evidence of the existence of God, however, because I do not believe in God, I will dismiss any evidence you provide because it is not consistent with my beliefs.”

This is a typical example of “bovine waste product”. Real evidence - like the one I presented - cannot be dismissed.

Waste of time, really. Parlor games, as one poster said, and not very entertaining ones at that.

No one forces you to participate.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Buddy, I was a child back then. I did not even know the word “faith”. But children are gullible, they swallow whatever the authorities tell them, so I believed that there is good, loving deity “up there”. So, yes, I tried to pray for a few specific abilities, because I already was aware of starving children, and I wanted to help them. And - as always - nothing happened. That was the first “crack” in the wall of my beliefs. Later those cracks became gaping holes, and finally the whole wall came down.

.

There’s an organization called “Catholic Relief Services” that I donate to monthly that helps starving children. There are many, many other Christian and non-Christian organizations that do the same. Instead of praying, use your hands and your pockets to help the starving children. That is what God is asking you to do. If you truly care, don’t just pray, act. We are the hands and feet of God. If you want to help starving children, quit whining about God and do something!!

 

[Pallas_Athene]

There’s an organization called “Catholic Relief Services” that I donate to monthly that helps starving children. There are many, many other Christian and non-Christian organizations that do the same. Instead of praying, use your hands and your pockets to help the starving children. That is what God is asking you to do. If you truly care, don’t just pray, act.

That is just a cop-out. Even if everyone would strip down to their loin cloth and eat only a next-to-starvation rations, there would still be other problems, which we (humans) simply cannot solve. We cannot cure many diseases, we cannot send rain to the drought-stricken areas, we cannot rescue trapped miners, we cannot prevent Earthquakes or tsunamis…

Our “powers” to fix the problems are very limited. As our abilities grow we can alleviate more and more problems. God is supposed to have infinite powers, God is alleged to care about us. There is no sign of any of this. Those usual cop-outs only “convince” those who already believe.

We are the hands and feet of God.

If that is all God can do, then God is seriously “crippled”, indeed.

 

[Frankenfurter]

Buddy, I was a child back then. I did not even know the word “faith”. But children are gullible, they swallow whatever the authorities tell them, so I believed that there is good, loving deity “up there”. So, yes, I tried to pray for a few specific abilities, because I already was aware of starving children, and I wanted to help them. And - as always - nothing happened. That was the first “crack” in the wall of my beliefs. Later those cracks became gaping holes, and finally the whole wall came down.

Ah. Indeed, you have never have prayed for faith as an adult. This is a very common scenario with Atheists. Namely that their faith was shattered at a young age and since then, they have never looked at God from an adult point of view. The development of the spiritual (the combination of logic, emotions and memory together) can get stunted.

 

[Frankenfurter]

If that is all God can do, then God is seriously “crippled”, indeed.

Your sentiment is referred to as the ‘prayer for mediocrity’. This prayer goes something like this: ‘God, you are all powerful and all loving. Now, I need you to change how are you are doing things.’

You want God to fix things to conform to how YOU think they should be. This thought cannot be held on to at the same time with the thought that God is all knowing and loving.

There are two solutions (at least that I can think of) to that spiritual dilemma. One is to give up on God completely. The other is to have faith in God and look more deeply into why things are the way they are. There are many wonderful insights into God that can be gleaned by following the second path. And since the first is a dead end, why not take the road less traveled?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

That is just a cop-out. Even if everyone would strip down to their loin cloth and eat only a next-to-starvation rations, there would still be other problems, which we (humans) simply cannot solve. We cannot cure many diseases, we cannot send rain to the drought-stricken areas, we cannot rescue trapped miners, we cannot prevent Earthquakes or tsunamis…

Our “powers” to fix the problems are very limited. As our abilities grow we can alleviate more and more problems. God is supposed to have infinite powers, God is alleged to care about us. There is no sign of any of this. Those usual cop-outs only “convince” those who already believe.

If that is all God can do, then God is seriously “crippled”, indeed.

You truly need to grow up.