Two Objections To The RCC

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The Pope has declared that we can be saved without biblical faith. It is also said that those who “seek” God and are “good” people go to heaven by their ignorance of Christ or the Catholic Church. I’ve been told that Muslims can be going to heaven as well as Jews…Isn’t this contrary to what Christ said? For He said, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe shall not be saved” and also, “He who has not the Son has not the Father.” Jews and Muslims neither believe in Christ or are baptized. They do not have the Son, so they have not the Father. They worship a false god. How so can they be saved? By obeying the law? God forbid. If I can deny Christ and be saved, for what did Jesus of Nazereth die? To be mocked?

Purgatory is a place where we are punished for “venial” sins. The written Word tells us that Christ bore every sin on the cross, and that we shall not endure God’s wrath. Catholics say, “But nothing unclean enters heaven!” This is most certainly true. Are we not washed with the blood of Christ? Was He not crushed, covering our sin forever? You say, “God is a consuming fire.” Indeed, but He is also living water. Does this mean Jesus is literally water?

Can my objections be answered?
 
TristanCross said:
The Pope has declared that we can be saved without biblical faith. It is also said that those who “seek” God and are “good” people go to heaven by their ignorance of Christ or the Catholic Church. I’ve been told that Muslims can be going to heaven as well as Jews…Isn’t this contrary to what Christ said? For He said, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe shall not be saved” and also, “He who has not the Son has not the Father.” Jews and Muslims neither believe in Christ or are baptized. They do not have the Son, so they have not the Father. They worship a false god. How so can they be saved? By obeying the law? God forbid. If I can deny Christ and be saved, for what did Jesus of Nazereth die? To be mocked?

Purgatory is a place where we are punished for “venial” sins. The written Word tells us that Christ bore every sin on the cross, and that we shall not endure God’s wrath. Catholics say, “But nothing unclean enters heaven!” This is most certainly true. Are we not washed with the blood of Christ? Was He not crushed, covering our sin forever? You say, “God is a consuming fire.” Indeed, but He is also living water. Does this mean Jesus is literally water?

Can my objections be answered?
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Of course they can be answered - and have been, numerous times. 🙂

But first, I would suggest you learn what the Catholic Church actually teaches, as opposed to the cariactures above. It would certainly make this conversation much more pleasant if we weren’t talking past each other.

❤️ Love is Patient
 
Why don’t you tell me what the Church teaches, since I’m obviously too stupid to understand anything concerning God. Especially Scripture. 🙂
 
Not “too stupid”, but rather too unwilling to listen to anything other then the anti-Catholic retoric that is spewed forth by many of our non-Catholic, Christian brothers.

What so many of you fail to see is that The Church, (Yes, the Holy Roman Cathoic Church), was started by Christ. The Church then, with divine inspiration, gave us the Holy Bible. See, the Church came first, then the Bible.

The Catholic Church is a Bible Teaching Church. With our Sunday readings, our daily readings and our Holy Day readings we do, in truth cover much more of the Bible in a years time then most of the so called “bible teaching” churches.

So, rather then trying to shoot holes in us and trip us up with the same old tired arguements, I, for one, would like to hear a simple thank you for all the Catholics that have done Gods will over the past two thousand years.

Come back to The Church end this foolish division.

I pray daily for the reunification of all Christians back into ONE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH! As it was then, so shall it be again!

NOT JUST STRONG…CATHOLIC STRONG
 
TristanCross said:
The Pope has declared that we can be saved without biblical faith. It is also said that those who “seek” God and are “good” people go to heaven by their ignorance of Christ or the Catholic Church. I’ve been told that Muslims can be going to heaven as well as Jews…Isn’t this contrary to what Christ said? For He said, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe shall not be saved” and also, “He who has not the Son has not the Father.” Jews and Muslims neither believe in Christ or are baptized. They do not have the Son, so they have not the Father. They worship a false god. How so can they be saved? By obeying the law? God forbid. If I can deny Christ and be saved, for what did Jesus of Nazereth die? To be mocked?
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When we say that there is “no salvation outside the Catholic Church”, it does NOT mean that non-Catholics cannot be saved, as you’ve already stated. That chance at salvation, however, comes in SPITE of a lack of knowledge, and decreases the further one’s beliefs differ from the Catholic Church. If a non-Catholic does make it to heaven, it’s because they will be doing the will of God, as passed down through the Bible and proclaimed most fully through the Catholic Church, without even realizing it. It’s akin to this. Imagine the Catholic Church as a 16 year old who goes out and buys a brand new car. They read the entire instruction manual, sign up and take driving lessons, and successfully make it to school. Now, imagine other groups are 16 year olds who go out and buy used cars. They have only partial instruction manuals, or perhaps no instruction manual at all. Some get lessons, but some do not. Now, they may eventually make it safely to school as well, but if school represents the Kingdom of Heaven, which route is the safer choice? If they DO make it to school, it will be by unintentionally following the rules that were in the book they never read and the lessons they never signed up for. (In other words, they were still saved THROUGH the Catholic Church).

The main issue here is the issue of mortal sin. Yes, a non-Catholic can make it to heaven, but in order for that to happen, they can’t have any unforgiven mortal sins on their soul. Now, the only sure-fire way to get rid of mortal sins is through the Sacrament of Confession (at least according to Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East beliefs…). Failing that, it IS possible to make an “Act of Perfect Contrition”, which is begging God for forgiveness not JUST because you’re scared of hell, but because you’re actually deeply repentant for having offended God. So… this becomes the problem. In order for a non-Catholic to make it to heaven, they must first truly be ignorant of the truth of Catholicism, and then they must have NO unforgiven mortal sins. If they DO have mortal sins on their soul, how likely is it that a non-Catholic, even a Protestant, would know to make an Act of Perfect Contrition?
Purgatory is a place where we are punished for “venial” sins. The written Word tells us that Christ bore every sin on the cross, and that we shall not endure God’s wrath. Catholics say, “But nothing unclean enters heaven!” This is most certainly true. Are we not washed with the blood of Christ? Was He not crushed, covering our sin forever? You say, “God is a consuming fire.” Indeed, but He is also living water. Does this mean Jesus is literally water?
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Let’s compare God’s justice to our own legal system. Let’s say I go out and murder someone (God forbid). Later, I come to feel TRULY sorry for my actions. I contact the authorities. I donate all the money I have to the victim’s family. I go personally apologize to the victim’s family. I work hard to try and change my life. There’s no doubt left in anyone’s mind that I’m sorry, and indeed, the family finds it in themselves to truly forgive me.

So… now that that’s done, I don’t have to go to jail and suffer a punishment, right? :confused:

In Catholic and Orthodox theology, we believe that mortal sins actually separate us from God. In order to make things right, we need to undertake a penance. That penance can occur on earth while I’m alive (and be given to me to complete while at Confession), or… it may have to take place after death in purgatory. The punishment to clense us from the stain of sin in NO WAY affects our actual forgiveness, yet… a price still has to be paid.
 
Ah, Catholics and their assumptions. I didn’t get this from some website and go, “Hey, I’m going to go troll the Catholic forums! Hail Satan, death to Mary!” No. I’ve been considering the church for a while. So, please, stop with the stupid assumptions that I’m some Satanic Protestant anticatholic on a mission to steal souls for Satan. Just stop…

These questions come from my knowledge of Scripture. I was listening to Catholic answers, and heard the guy say Muslims can go to heaven without beleving in Christ as Lord and Savior…I remembered the Scriptures, and I posted. So far, the Catholic argument for these things are poor and unbiblical.

Again, I am NOT a satanic protestant anticatholic. Everything seems okay in Catholicism except these two doctrines and a few more. Like Mary being the new Eve. Adam and Eve were equal. Jesus is the new Adam. Calling Mary the new Eve makes her equal to Christ, like it or not.

Godspeed.
 
TristanCross said:
The Pope has declared that we can be saved without biblical faith. It is also said that those who “seek” God and are “good” people go to heaven by their ignorance of Christ or the Catholic Church. I’ve been told that Muslims can be going to heaven as well as Jews…Isn’t this contrary to what Christ said? For He said, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe shall not be saved” and also, “He who has not the Son has not the Father.” Jews and Muslims neither believe in Christ or are baptized. They do not have the Son, so they have not the Father. They worship a false god. How so can they be saved? By obeying the law? God forbid. If I can deny Christ and be saved, for what did Jesus of Nazereth die? To be mocked?
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The Church teaches that “outside the Church there is no salvation,” but the Church also recognizes that a merciful God would not condemn someone to Hell for something beyond their fault or control. Basically, if they truly do not know Christ, but would convert if they did know or did have the chance, then they may be saved - it is called “baptism by desire.” However, if you know Christ, but deny him or turn away from him, then you will not be saved.
TristanCross said:
Purgatory is a place where we are punished for “venial” sins. The written Word tells us that Christ bore every sin on the cross, and that we shall not endure God’s wrath. Catholics say, “But nothing unclean enters heaven!” This is most certainly true. Are we not washed with the blood of Christ? Was He not crushed, covering our sin forever? You say, “God is a consuming fire.” Indeed, but He is also living water. Does this mean Jesus is literally water?
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Your objection here is unclear - the Church does not preach universal salvation or predestination. If you commit a venial sin, you can still get into heaven, just not right away - you stay in Purgatory before you get “in.” If you commit a mortal sin, and die unrepentant, you go to Hell. Before Christ, no one entered Heaven, with a few notable exceptions mentioned in the Old Testament. After Christ’s death on the Cross, it is possible for anyone to enter Heaven, though, of course, not everyone will. The Father and the Son being compared to Fire and Water are metaphors - the Church does not teach that “Jesus is literally water.”
TristanCross said:
Can my objections be answered?
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Yes. Though, your second objection is not really clear. Could you please clarify?
 
TristanCross said:
These questions come from my knowledge of Scripture. I was listening to Catholic answers, and heard the guy say Muslims can go to heaven without beleving in Christ as Lord and Savior…I remembered the Scriptures, and I posted. So far, the Catholic argument for these things are poor and unbiblical.
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The key words here are “from my knowledge of Scripture.” So you are the authority on Scripture (these are not fighting words but being used to put forward a point)?

Who is the authority for interpretation of the Holy Scriptures?

As to your specific objection here, who are you, or anyone of us, to limit God and His choice on how salvation works?

You have been given answers to these “objections” of yours in the past, you just seem to not want to accept the answer. That is fine, but when they have been given why must they be given again?

You keep to the same error of stating that the Catholic Church is unbiblical even though we have shown you how wrong this assumption of yours is.
 
Like said:
I didn’t say it, he did!!!

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it 👍
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He’s searching and asking questions. That is a GOOD thing. Help him out by showing him some patience.
And I dont smoke.😃
 
Tristin, in case you missed it on the other thread:

Glad to hear this Tristin. Sorry to have been so rough on you in your initial posts, but as the Proverbs says, ‘better are the wounds of a friend’…
One thing I do want to point out to you. The Catholic faith is not based on what we are against so much as what we are for. Anti-Catholics tend to be very angry and cynical. Is true religion based on anger? James tells us true religion is based on tangibles. We are FOR widows and orphans. We are FOR feeding the hungry and sheltering the homeless.
A theology that makes you angry and paralyzes you is no theology, its a waste of time.
I was a teen-ager once and thought I had all the answers (the curse of adolesance). I spent 20 years wandering from teacher to teacher all ‘absolutely’ SURE thier interpretation of the Bible was the correct one. ‘Scripture alone’ they cry, but a simple look at your local Yellow Pages reveals that to be in error. The Holy Spirit is NOT the author of confusion. Do not allow confusion to rule your life or you will spend years wandering a Protestant wasteland like I did. The grass always looks greener. Take the advice of a former teen-ager who was just as opinionated and passionate. its not.
I saw many teen-agers in the years I was a fundamentalist so completely disillusioned by the hypocrisy of what they saw. What happens? At best they don’t give up their faith in God, they just stop going to any kind of church. At worst, they become atheist. I’ve seen this rerun so many times I can recite the dialogue.

Here are some works that helped me:
A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, edited by David W. Bercot.
The Teachings of the Church Fathers, edited by John R. Willis.
Fundamentalism and Catholicism by Karl Keating.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Roots of the Reformation by Karl Adam.
Journeys Home by Marcus Grodi.

Finally, TAKE YOUR TIME!! Stop trying understand everything at once. It’s not that simple. Do not gorge yourself feeding your mind. Take one bite at a time, chew on it and let it settle. I know thats hard in this world of the instant and the simple, but dare to be different and MUSE on the words.

*Seek for answers, and when you find what seems to be an answer, question that too. *Louis L’amour

We will be praying for you. In the meantime, relax, feed your brain, and enjoy the ride.
 
Firstly, I would like to apologize for some of our overzealous brothers.
TristanCross said:
The Pope has declared that we can be saved without biblical faith. It is also said that those who “seek” God and are “good” people go to heaven by their ignorance of Christ or the Catholic Church. I’ve been told that Muslims can be going to heaven as well as Jews…Isn’t this contrary to what Christ said? For He said, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe shall not be saved” and also, “He who has not the Son has not the Father.” Jews and Muslims neither believe in Christ or are baptized. They do not have the Son, so they have not the Father. They worship a false god. How so can they be saved? By obeying the law? God forbid. If I can deny Christ and be saved, for what did Jesus of Nazereth die? To be mocked?
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Jews and Muslims don’t worship a false god. They worship the same God of Abraham that Christians do. (Arguably, any monotheistic religion, or any religion that acknowledges a single omnipotent God also worships the same God, if unknowingly; since there can only be one omnipotent creator of the universe.)

Now, as for your point: the salvation of Christ knows no bounds. It is not within our intellectual capacity to understand how God judges men beyond what He has revealed to us. When He chooses to justify non-Christians, it is in spite of their false beliefs, not because of it. (You may have used the term “righteous pagan” before, which originally referred to Roman soldiers that prayed in Synagogues because they believed in God during the era of Christ, but were themselves not Jews.)

I would suggest reading this article.
Purgatory is a place where we are punished for “venial” sins. The written Word tells us that Christ bore every sin on the cross, and that we shall not endure God’s wrath. Catholics say, “But nothing unclean enters heaven!” This is most certainly true. Are we not washed with the blood of Christ? Was He not crushed, covering our sin forever? You say, “God is a consuming fire.” Indeed, but He is also living water. Does this mean Jesus is literally water?
Click to expand...
Think of it like this. I spill my drink at a friend’s house, and he forgives me for it; but it’s still my prerogative to clean it up. There is evidence of purgatory in scriptures, might I suggest you check out this website about it.
 
Again, I am NOT a satanic protestant anticatholic. Everything seems okay in Catholicism except these two doctrines and a few more. Like Mary being the new Eve. Adam and Eve were equal. Jesus is the new Adam. Calling Mary the new Eve makes her equal to Christ, like it or not.

Godspeed.

Catholics do not believe that Mary and Jesus are equal. JESUS IS GOD! Part of the Holy Trinity, The Three in One. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There is not now, nor will there ever be a forth person, making it the “quad-god”.

Mary is honored as what she is, Most Holy and Blessed Among Women. What a singular and great honor, to be the very mother of our Lord, God and Savior. As such she is honored by The Catholic Church and Catholics.

As I stated before, The Church came before the Bible. Our Catholic Traditions are a huge part of what we believe and what makes us Catholics. Scripture is the inspired word of God true, but God/Jesus also gave us our start as a Church and that Church operated for many years without a formal bible, these are where many of our traditions come from.

Again, I invite you and all Christians to come home to your mother, the Bride of Chirst, The Catholic Church.

NOT JUST STRONG…CATHOLIC STRONG!!!
 
This thread belongs in the Apologetics section, not the Traditional Catholics section.
 
Dear Tristancross,

Thankyou for asking your questions. Would you mind if I deal with your first question for now and leave, at least for the moment, the issue of purgatory.

Your question involves what our Church calls “Invincible Ignorance”, that is a persons ignorance of Christianity and the Church* through no fault of their own.*

Every human being has a conscience which dictates a natural law of moral obligation, well at leasr when they come to the age of reason. St. Paul refers to this in Romans 2 verses 14-15. This passage is quite basic to understanding the whole issue of any salvation outside of the Church. If a non-Christian, be he a Jew of a Muslim or whatever, has no knowledge of Christianity and is ignorant of it through no fault of his own, he can at least repent of personal sins against his conscience, and have aspirations after goodness - or at the very least a desire to do what is right. We believe that our loving heavenly Father who would have all men to be saved (see I Timothy 2: 4) gives to each person the grace to do this much. However how does this square with the words of Jesus that you cite - “He who believes and is baptized shall be saved, he who believes not shall not be saved”. The key point to remember here is that if the Muslim or Jew *knew and *understood that they should receive baptism in order to receive salvation, then they would most gladly do so. Thus you will note that it all boils down to what knowledge a person has or does not have. Now it would be wholly unjust for God to condemn a man to Hell simply because he had no knowledge of Jesus or the Christian faith. We allow as much for mental defectives and very young children, why not for unenlightened pagans?

This strong desire, or to use theological language, this “Baptism of Desire”, to do all that God would require implicitly includes the desire of baptism. You could say that God sort of takes the will for the deed and grants His sanctifying grace to the persons soul. So yes a non-Christain with a desire for the Church and the Christian faith could well be saved. By the way we believe that God also provides His sanctifying grace in the case of a person who dies a martyr (more of them in the last century than at any other time in the history of the Church!) for Christ, this is called a Baptism of Blood.

The bible passages, like the ones you cite, which suggest very strongly that people who refuse to believe will be punished eternally in Hell apply only to those who have heard the Gospel story and have rejected it as nonsense or lies. After all one can hardly be condemned for rejecting what one has never heard, or had opportunity to hear. St. Paul again addresses this very issue - "For every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. But how are men to callupon him in whom they have not believed? **And how **are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? (Romans 10: 14 emphasis mine). Indeed this is why the Church has a missionary mandate to proclaim the message of the Gospel in all the world for a witness to all nations of the earth.

I do hope TristanCross that I have made things a little clearer for you, or did you wish to go deeper than this? If I can be of further help then don’t hesitate to ask ok. You may find the following link by Father Ray Ryland very informative:

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp

With warmest good wishes and prayers,

Portrait.
 
Portrait,

Thank you. Your post has helped. Now, you said “Christians”. Are you implying that nonCatholic Christians are in fact in the process of salvation? Or are they completely lost despite their faith in Christ?
 
The apostle Paul noted that those who know and love the Creator from nature itself can be saved. This salvific grace is Christ’s gift through His Church. I guess that means I’d say that Mother Church, founded by Jesus Christ, given “all” His power and authority through Peter and the apostles, is the mediatrix of all graces.

And Purgatory is gleaned from Christ’s parable that the debtor shall not be freed until the last farthing is paid…note KJV-friendly lingo. You aren’t getting out of Hell so this must be the place of cleansing. Maccabees is included in the pre-Christian Old Testament Jesus and Catholics use and counsels us to pray for departed souls. No point in that if there’s a straight ticket to Heaven for all, eh? So let’s agree to disagree.

Catholics hew to the straight and narrow illuminated in the Bible and take it literally, as in the literal Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. So let me thump you with this Bible and urge you to get a red-letter version and “hear and obey” all that Christ says. Then you’ll be Catholic.
 
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