Two Objections To The RCC

[TristanCross]

I have red letter Bibles. None of them are Catholic Bibles though hahaha.

I just feel like Purgatory totally denies Christ’s perfect sacrifice. He said it: “It is finished.”

 

[EphelDuath]

I just feel like Purgatory totally denies Christ’s perfect sacrifice. He said it: “It is finished.”

Did St. Paul deny Christ’s perfect sacrifice?

1 Corinthians 3:13-17
“13 The work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14 If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If the work is burned, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.”

Purgatory is part of Christ’s sacrifice. We wouldn’t enter a period of cleansing before Heaven if it were not for Christ’s death for us.

 

[judechild]

He said it: “It is finished.”

Yes, and that makes him our paschel lamb.

But even after Passover, the Jews still had to go 40 years in a desert.

 

[Portrait]

Portrait,

Thank you. Your post has helped. Now, you said “Christians”. Are you implying that nonCatholic Christians are in fact in the process of salvation? Or are they completely lost despite their faith in Christ?

Dear TristanCross,

So glad that my posting helped, but do check out Father Ryland’s article.

Non-Catholic Christians could, if certain conditions are satisfied, be finally saved:

1. As I said previously, they must have baptism at least of desire.
2. They must be ignorant of the fact that the Catholic Church is the only true Church.
3. They must not be themselves responsible for that ignorance by deliberatley neglecting to inquire when doubts have come into their minds about their Protestant beliefs.
4. They must die with perfect contrition for their sins and, of course, a sincere love of God.

However these good dispositions are really an implicit will to be a Catholic. Why? The will to do God’s will is the will to fulfill all that He commands. Such a person would join the Catholic Church if they realized that that was part of God’s will. In this sense yes the Catholic Church is the only road to heaven, I mean all who are saved belong to her either actually (Catholics) or implicitly (non-Catholics).

By the way this is not the same as saying that Protestant religion is true. If Protestants are saved it is not because of Protestantism, but in spite of their erroneous religion. They have simply been true to their conscience which was in error through no fault of their own.

Catholics also recognise that by virtue of Christian Baptism a sacramental bond exists between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians. Thus nowadays we speak of being “brothers by baptism” and we recognise our separated brethren as brothers and sisters in Christ and gladly receive them as such. This is not to deny that the fulness of Christian truth “subsists” (or lives) within the Catholic Church.

Again let me know if you want me to enlarge upon anything or unpack it a tad more.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[TristanCross]

Check out my post on baptism, hehe:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=380534

 

[VociMike]

The Pope has declared that we can be saved without biblical faith. It is also said that those who “seek” God and are “good” people go to heaven by their ignorance of Christ or the Catholic Church. I’ve been told that Muslims can be going to heaven as well as Jews…Isn’t this contrary to what Christ said? For He said, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe shall not be saved” and also, “He who has not the Son has not the Father.” Jews and Muslims neither believe in Christ or are baptized. They do not have the Son, so they have not the Father. They worship a false god. How so can they be saved? By obeying the law? God forbid. If I can deny Christ and be saved, for what did Jesus of Nazereth die? To be mocked?

What about infants who die, do they all go to hell? What about the mentally incompetent, do they all go to hell? What about people who have never heard the true gospel, do they all go to hell?

Purgatory is a place where we are punished for “venial” sins. The written Word tells us that Christ bore every sin on the cross, and that we shall not endure God’s wrath. Catholics say, “But nothing unclean enters heaven!” This is most certainly true. Are we not washed with the blood of Christ? Was He not crushed, covering our sin forever? You say, “God is a consuming fire.” Indeed, but He is also living water. Does this mean Jesus is literally water?

Purgatory is a process whereby we are made perfect for our entry into heaven. You almost certainly believe in it.

1. Are you now perfect, without sin or attachment to sin?
2. In heaven will you be perfect, without sin or attachment to sin?
3. What changes between (1) and (2)?

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Pope has declared that we can be saved without biblical faith. It is also said that those who “seek” God and are “good” people go to heaven by their ignorance of Christ or the Catholic Church. I’ve been told that Muslims can be going to heaven as well as Jews…Isn’t this contrary to what Christ said? For He said, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe shall not be saved” and also, “He who has not the Son has not the Father.” Jews and Muslims neither believe in Christ or are baptized. They do not have the Son, so they have not the Father. They worship a false god. How so can they be saved? By obeying the law? God forbid. If I can deny Christ and be saved, for what did Jesus of Nazereth die? To be mocked?

Salvation for Non-Christians Explained Using Sola Scriptura
By Joan Summers
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0302fea3.asp

Purgatory is a place where we are punished for “venial” sins. The written Word tells us that Christ bore every sin on the cross, and that we shall not endure God’s wrath. Catholics say, “But nothing unclean enters heaven!” This is most certainly true. Are we not washed with the blood of Christ? Was He not crushed, covering our sin forever? You say, “God is a consuming fire.” Indeed, but He is also living water. Does this mean Jesus is literally water?

When we die, there are only two possible destinations: heaven or hell. Purgatory is the process or place by which or in which we endure the temporal punishment for sins that have already been forgiven. This cleansing process prepares us for entrance into the throne room of God. Some reading will help.

Articles on Purgatory

Purgatory
catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp

Purgatory
By Rev. William G. Most
catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9204chap.asp

Is Purgatory Found in the Bible?
By Christine Pinheiro and Kenneth J. Howell
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp

Purgatory? Where Is That in the Bible?
By Mark P. Shea
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0103fea2.asp

How to Argue the Existence of Purgatory
By Jason Evert
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp

**PURGATORY IN ALL BUT NAME **
By W. ROBERT ANFILL
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9801fea2.asp

Can my objections be answered?

Yes. See above.

 

[Answersplease]

What makes people think that purgatory is a punishment?

The scriptures speak of an escape as if through fire, purgatory may be painful, but it is not necessarily a punishment.

(Paraphrasing the next analogy.)
I think it was Father Vincent Serpa who said that when people sin it is like putting nails into a wooden board, the sacrifice Jesus The Christ made for you has removed those sins/nails, but the ugly holes left by the sins/nails still remain in the board; the sins/nails have damaged the board (you), purgatory will repair your soul and your mind, purgatory will make the board look like new again.
(My apologies to the person who made the above analogy if it was’nt Father Vincent Serpa.)

You will not enter heaven unless you are perfect.

The same sunlight that hardens clay, is the same sunlight that will melt wax.

If I remember correctly, no man can see the face of God The Father and live. Probably because the men in question are imperfect. You must be made whole to stand in front of God The Father.

I doubt that anyone who still desires to look at porn will enter into heaven.

I doubt that anyone who still lusts after the flesh will enter into heaven.

As another poster mentioned, you must be FREE of the ATTACHMENT to SIN.

Purgatory will repair your mind and soul, purgatory will PURGE you of the desires for sins.

Romans 7:18
For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh. The willing is ready at hand, but doing the good is not.

Romans 7:19
For I do not do the good I want, but I do the evil I do not want.

Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin.

 

[Answersplease]

The Pope has declared that we can be saved without biblical faith. It is also said that those who “seek” God and are “good” people go to heaven by their ignorance of Christ or the Catholic Church.

The Scriptures say that God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

The Catholics say that the Church is bound by the Sacraments,
but God is NOT bound by the Sacraments.

God can save anyone He wishes to save, probably by speaking to them at the very last moment before they die and giving them a choice.

There is also salvation through “Invincible Ignorance”.

However, it has been said by another that the farther away you get from the Catholic Church, the harder it will be to get saved.

I would’nt count on “Invincible Ignorance” or God just making an exception for you.

If I can deny Christ and be saved, for what did Jesus of Nazereth die? To be mocked?

I don’t think anyone can deny Christ and be saved.

But I understand your question. You are asking about other religions that reject Christianity.

I think the law of God is written on the hearts of people, if they have never heard the real Gospel Truth but they lived a “good” life (venial sins only, no mortal sins), then I think that it is possible that at the last moment of their life, Jesus The Christ can speak to them right before they die and tell them who He really is and give them a choice. Then if they choose to believe then they can go to purgatory.

It is within God’s power to perform a lifetime of miracles in less than a second, speaking to someone at the last few moments before they die is not outside of God’s power.

Purgatory is a place where we are punished for “venial” sins.

I don’t think purgatory is a place where you are punished, purgatory is a place where you are repaired.

Purgatory will purge (remove) your desires for sins.

Are we not washed with the blood of Christ?

Yes, but a washed rag is still a rag.

The rag must be made beautiful again and the holes removed so as to look new again.

Was He not crushed,

I understand what you are saying, but to clarify, I don’t think any of His bones were broken in fulfillment of the scriptures.

covering our sin forever?

I understand what you are saying, but to clarify, I think the sins were removed not covered up.

You say, “God is a consuming fire.” Indeed, but He is also living water. Does this mean Jesus is literally water?

I think He can be if He wanted to be, other than that I don’t get your point on this on.

Can my objections be answered?

I don’t think I can answer the one about living water.

 

[Answersplease]

Of course they can be answered - and have been, numerous times.

But first, I would suggest you learn what the Catholic Church actually teaches, as opposed to the cariactures above. It would certainly make this conversation much more pleasant if we weren’t talking past each other.

Love is Patient

 

[VociMike]

What makes people think that purgatory is a punishment?

The scriptures speak of an escape as if through fire, purgatory may be painful, but it is not necessarily a punishment.

This is an insightful question. If God punishes, is it for the same reasons as we punish? Is God’s punishment ever just to inflict pain, or is it not always to correct, to bring us back to him? God can have no motive for punishment other than our complete good. So in God’s case (unlike in ours, since we are fallen creatures), punishment is identical to correction is identical to purification is identical to sanctification.

The problem is that we have a human understanding of the word “punishment” but that understanding does not apply to God. We should want to be punished/corrected/purified/sanctified by God, even while we know that human punishment if quite often (always?) tainted with sinful motives and actions.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I know this is probably fodder for another thread but as the comment was made here I would like to comment on it here as well.

Jews and Muslims don’t worship a false god. They worship the same God of Abraham that Christians do. (Arguably, any monotheistic religion, or any religion that acknowledges a single omnipotent God also worships the same God, if unknowingly; since there can only be one omnipotent creator of the universe.)

I have heard this argument before, that any religion that worships one god must therefore worship the same god as Christians because we are all monotheistic.

How can this be? If the god that is worshiped is defined differently and has characteristics that are so different from our God can we say that their god is the same as our God?

The Church makes a distinction in what baptisms it views as valid. There are some sects that use the Trinitarian formula for baptism but the Church has ruled that their understanding of the Trinity is defective in such a way as to render their baptisms invalid. So if this is true then some religions who worship one god and are monotheistic may not worship the same God as Christians because their view of god is defective in some way.

And as there is no infallible teaching (it is not a dogma) on this matter it is open to theological speculation and many opinions may be held while still being a truly faithful Catholic. All we must believe is that God is in charge and any and all are worthy of and capable of being saved.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

The Pope has declared that we can be saved without biblical faith. It is also said that those who “seek” God and are “good” people go to heaven by their ignorance of Christ or the Catholic Church. I’ve been told that Muslims can be going to heaven as well as Jews…Isn’t this contrary to what Christ said? For He said, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe shall not be saved” and also, “He who has not the Son has not the Father.” Jews and Muslims neither believe in Christ or are baptized. They do not have the Son, so they have not the Father. They worship a false god. How so can they be saved? By obeying the law? God forbid. If I can deny Christ and be saved, for what did Jesus of Nazereth die? To be mocked?

Purgatory is a place where we are punished for “venial” sins. The written Word tells us that Christ bore every sin on the cross, and that we shall not endure God’s wrath. Catholics say, “But nothing unclean enters heaven!” This is most certainly true. Are we not washed with the blood of Christ? Was He not crushed, covering our sin forever? You say, “God is a consuming fire.” Indeed, but He is also living water. Does this mean Jesus is literally water?

Can my objections be answered?

The Church teaches and many Popes have also said that God can choose to save anyone He wishes in any manner He wishes, even those who have not heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jews and Muslims included.

Christ obtained for us the possibility of forgiveness of sins. Purgatory punishes for Venial sins that we have failed to ask forgiveness for in the life. They are the sins spoken of in the Bible when it talks of sins that are forgiven in the next life. Matthew 12:32

 

[tjm190]

The Pope has declared that we can be saved without biblical faith. It is also said that those who “seek” God and are “good” people go to heaven by their ignorance of Christ or the Catholic Church. I’ve been told that Muslims can be going to heaven as well as Jews…Isn’t this contrary to what Christ said? For He said, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe shall not be saved” and also, “He who has not the Son has not the Father.” Jews and Muslims neither believe in Christ or are baptized. They do not have the Son, so they have not the Father. They worship a false god. How so can they be saved? By obeying the law? God forbid. If I can deny Christ and be saved, for what did Jesus of Nazereth die? To be mocked?

Purgatory is a place where we are punished for “venial” sins. The written Word tells us that Christ bore every sin on the cross, and that we shall not endure God’s wrath. Catholics say, “But nothing unclean enters heaven!” This is most certainly true. Are we not washed with the blood of Christ? Was He not crushed, covering our sin forever? You say, “God is a consuming fire.” Indeed, but He is also living water. Does this mean Jesus is literally water?

Can my objections be answered?

A. Moses had no faith in Christ- but he was a good person who did God’s will.
B. The belief in purgatory is based in the fact that we were taught to pray for the dead. Those in heaven have no need for our prayers and those in hell can not benefit from them- so a third state was inferred.

 

[Odell]

"No one goes to heaven except threw Jesus Christ" this is biblical The Church understands this. What is heaven? Heaven is being in the presence of God. Jesus is God. So obviously no one would make it to heaven Gods presence, Jesus presence without Jesus. So we have to understand those like the Native Americans who never heard of Jesus if they made it to heaven did so threw Jesus Christ. That process we might not know but if there in Jesus presence I can assure you it was threw Jesus that they would be there in the first place.