Two questions about Adam and Eve

[Nelka]

We are on the same page.

They had the same genes as our bodies, so they had pain receptors.

And I for one don’t believe they never stubbed their toes or got a crick in their necks while in Eden.

ICXC NIKA.

Stubbing their toes on a Lion’s leg and cricking their necks trying to sleep against a tree?



I like to think the cows milked themselves and fruit just jumped off the tree into their hands.

Only joking, I think they were so happy that stubbing their toes wouldn’t bother them.

 

[GEddie]

Stubbing their toes on a Lion’s leg and cricking their necks trying to sleep against a tree?



I like to think the cows milked themselves and fruit just jumped off the tree into their hands.

Only joking, I think they were so happy that stubbing their toes wouldn’t bother them.

Well, if I were alive forever, I sure wouldn’t mind stubbing my toe or a crick in my neck!!

I would, however, probably register such through my body’s pain receptors.

ICXC NIKA

 

[triumphguy]

General comment: I think that experiencing pain, and having pain receptors are two different things.

 

[GEddie]

General comment: I think that experiencing pain, and having pain receptors are two different things.

Of course, it is.

But as an earthen body, living on the earth, there is no way those pain receptors are not getting triggered. The earth is that kind of a place.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Gorgias]

The answer lies in that The garden was paradise, just as heaven will be. If we are in heaven with resurrected bodies we will feel no pain, nor damage ourselves, why would it have been a possibility in the garden!

Umm… because Adam and Eve didn’t have glorified bodies?

p.s., if you’re equating ‘heaven’ and ‘paradise’, there’s a problem here. Paradise was an earthly reality; heaven will be the unmediated experience of the Beatific Vision. That’s way different, and way better…!

 

[Gorgias]

Adam and Eve are two literal, actual, real persons. That is Catholic Dogma, revealed to us by God and requires the assent of faith.

Adam and Eve are ‘real’; they existed. ‘Literal and actual’, though? If that’s the case, why does Genesis get confused and call Eve ‘Zoe’ in some places and ‘Eve’ in others?

 

[triumphguy]

Of course, it is.

But as an earthen body, living on the earth, there is no way those pain receptors are not getting triggered. The earth is that kind of a place.

ICXC NIKA.

I agree: I’m really saying that God created us once - he didn’t recreate us with pain receptors and other weaknesses once we were kicked out of paradise.

Our condition changed, not our created body.

 

[GEddie]

I agree: I’m really saying that God created us once - he didn’t recreate us with pain receptors and other weaknesses once we were kicked out of paradise.

Our condition changed, not our created body.

Hey, we are on the same page.

As beautiful as the luminous A&E bodies in the film **NOAH **were, they did not depict the truth; the truth was two standard-issue human nudes. With pain receptors.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Neofight]

In our pneumatikon soma, we will likely have no pain receptors, because no need for them.

Presumably the nerve endings now used for such will be redesigned for touch sensation, movement, (in the head) smell, etc.

However, we know A&E had pain receptors because their bodies were the same biologically as our own, and we have them.

It’s impossible to move around in an earthen body and earthly environment without triggering the pain receptors occasionally.

ICXC NIKA.

I never claimed they didn’t have pain receptors, my contention was theological not biological.

Having pain receptors doesn’t mean they experienced pain…until after they lost there immortality.

And, earth today is not the paradise it was at the time of genesis chapter 2.

 

[grannymh]

I am going to quickly throw in a couple of thoughts.

First there is the significance of the unequal relationship between God the Creator and Adam the human creature.

One aspect of the unequal relationship is that God could give Adam and Eve extra gifts beyond their already magnificent human nature. (Genesis 1: 26-27) Because these gifts would not necessarily be inherent to original human nature, they would have to depend on the maintenance of the unequal relationship.

These over-and-above gifts are known as the Preternatural gifts. From this link.
catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35763

The Preternatural Gifts are …
Favors granted by God above and beyond the powers or capacities of the nature that receives them but not beyond those of all created nature. Such gifts perfect nature but do not carry it beyond the limits of created nature. They include three great privileges to which human beings have no title–infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and bodily immortality. Adam and Eve possessed these gifts before the Fall.

 

[DavidFilmer]

1. Yes. All of the human race descended fro Adam and Eve (Tobit 8:6).

This is also the teaching of modern geneticists. It can be proven, beyond any rational mathematical doubt, that all of humanity (homo sapiens) are descended from a common female (scientifically known as Mitochondrial Eve) and a common male (scientifically known as Y-Chromosome Adam).

This much is settled scientific fact among all recognized genetic biologists. These “parents” are called the Last Universal Common Ancestors (LUCA) of the human race. No reputable biologist on earth disputes this fact. (And, in fact, every species has a LUCA.)

What is not settled is whether scientific “Adam” and “Eve” ever met. Genetically, they would not need to actually mate with one another to give rise to “us.” All geneticists believe that “Eve” came before “Adam,” but the difference has been speculated as much as 50,000 years.

 

[Kelt]

Stubbing their toes on a Lion’s leg and cricking their necks trying to sleep against a tree?



I like to think the cows milked themselves and fruit just jumped off the tree into their hands.

Only joking, I think they were so happy that stubbing their toes wouldn’t bother them.

You’ve actually made an important point in this argument! They would presumably have had to gather their food as they had human bodies so unless all trees and bushes were flat and shoulder high (and even if someone argues that they were) they would presumably have to bend, reach etc etc. If they didn’t experience pain ( rather than a tingle), how would they tell the difference between the mild discomfort of standing on a few twigs from the danger to their body from standing on a sharp twig or rock that punctures their skin and flesh. How would they know they’d broken a bone after falling down a hole - or are they being allowed 360 vision? And if they could see they had - as a limb was pointing the wrong way - if they carried on using it because it didn’t hurt like hell, how would it mend? How would they know, when they’re eating, whether that little tingle meant they’d just slightly bruised their tongue or actually were in the process of chewing a bit off?
I often wonder why people ask - do fish feel pain? Well of course they do, otherwise they would crash into every obstacle (I’m thinking rivers here) and unknowingly shred their bodies.
There is an extremely rare condition that renders the victim unable to experience pain…in the past they would have died pretty quickly but now they can be helped but their life is very difficult.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_insensitivity_to_pain

 

[Kelt]

Stubbing their toes on a Lion’s leg and cricking their necks trying to sleep against a tree?



I like to think the cows milked themselves and fruit just jumped off the tree into their hands.

Only joking, I think they were so happy that stubbing their toes wouldn’t bother them.

I just thought about the lion! Why did he have big sharp canines?

 

[Nelka]

I just thought about the lion! Why did he have big sharp canines?

To eat the tough bits that Adam and Eve didn’t want?

Maybe to stop the elephants chucking their weight around?

 

[grannymh]

This is also the teaching of modern geneticists. It can be proven, beyond any rational mathematical doubt, that all of humanity (homo sapiens) are descended from a common female (scientifically known as Mitochondrial Eve) and a common male (scientifically known as Y-Chromosome Adam).

This much is settled scientific fact among all recognized genetic biologists. These “parents” are called the Last Universal Common Ancestors (LUCA) of the human race. No reputable biologist on earth disputes this fact. (And, in fact, every species has a LUCA.)

What is not settled is whether scientific “Adam” and “Eve” ever met. Genetically, they would not need to actually mate with one another to give rise to “us.” All geneticists believe that “Eve” came before “Adam,” but the difference has been speculated as much as 50,000 years.

As Wikipedia points out, this media-named genetic Eve is not the Original Eve taught by the Catholic Church. Please refer to “Common Misconceptions” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve#Common_misconceptions

Obviously, some of our dead ancestors with a different genome would have descended from the same population in which the so-called “Eve” lived.

In fact, the 1987 research by Rebecca Cann et al is viewed by scientists as being
directed toward the Out of Africa Theory which was challenging the MulltiRegional theory of human origins.

I am traveling and short of time. However, I will be happy to explain the genetics of a population and the related Catholic teachings when I eventually come upon a granny-friendly computer.

 

[GEddie]

You’ve actually made an important point in this argument! They would presumably have had to gather their food as they had human bodies so unless all trees and bushes were flat and shoulder high (and even if someone argues that they were) they would presumably have to bend, reach etc etc. If they didn’t experience pain ( rather than a tingle), how would they tell the difference between the mild discomfort of standing on a few twigs from the danger to their body from standing on a sharp twig or rock that punctures their skin and flesh. How would they know they’d broken a bone after falling down a hole - or are they being allowed 360 vision? And if they could see they had - as a limb was pointing the wrong way - if they carried on using it because it didn’t hurt like hell, how would it mend? How would they know, when they’re eating, whether that little tingle meant they’d just slightly bruised their tongue or actually were in the process of chewing a bit off?
I often wonder why people ask - do fish feel pain? Well of course they do, otherwise they would crash into every obstacle (I’m thinking rivers here) and unknowingly shred their bodies.
There is an extremely rare condition that renders the victim unable to experience pain…in the past they would have died pretty quickly but now they can be helped but their life is very difficult.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_insensitivity_to_pain

As to broken limbs; even if it did not hurt like heqq, they’d be unable to use the limb!

They Almost certainly did not have wrap-around vision because their eye systems and necks were the same as our own. Wrap-around vision would not be needed to avoid falling down holes, as we normally do not walk backward. But even in a land without thorns and the like, there was no lack of roots, projecting rocks, etc, to catch their ankles on.

For that matter, their standard-issue bodies had the same ulnar nerve we do. So even apart from pain receptors, while swinging their perfect limbs around, they were gonna hit their “funnybone” occasionally!

ICXC NIKA

 

[Kelt]

To eat the tough bits that Adam and Eve didn’t want?

Maybe to stop the elephants chucking their weight around?

Haha! But why didn’t they eat Adam and Eve - they were made of meat…

 

[Kelt]

As to broken limbs; even if it did not hurt like heqq, they’d be unable to use the limb!

They Almost certainly did not have wrap-around vision because their eye systems and necks were the same as our own. Wrap-around vision would not be needed to avoid falling down holes, as we normally do not walk backward. But even in a land without thorns and the like, there was no lack of roots, projecting rocks, etc, to catch their ankles on.

For that matter, their standard-issue bodies had the same ulnar nerve we do. So even apart from pain receptors, while swinging their perfect limbs around, they were gonna hit their “funnybone” occasionally!

ICXC NIKA

So they had pain.

 

[GEddie]

Haha! But why didn’t they eat Adam and Eve - they were made of meat…

For the same reason your dog or cat (both predators) do not attack you.

The beasts saw A&E spiritually as their bosses.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Kelt]

For the same reason your dog or cat (both predators) do not attack you.

The beasts saw A&E spiritually as their bosses.

ICXC NIKA.

The reason our pets don’t attack us is that we’ve domesticated the breeds over thousands of years and then we rear them from babies. We’re effectively a dog’s pack leader.( Cats seem to have a mind of their own and they’re too small to eat us!) A wild cat or a wolf might be a different kettle of fish. I don’t think a zoo keeper would walk around happily in the lion pen even if he’d know them from birth. Lions would be running down and ripping up anything else made of meat that didn’t run fast enough…they’d need a different level of understanding and training to turn their nose up at man-meat when they were hungry!