Two Questions about "if we die in mortal sin we go to hell"

[Agnus_Dei]

VociMike:

I think you need to face the full implications of your question. For example, you ask about having received communion and absolution earlier in the day. Do you think there is some time period of immunity from deadly sin? Like if you commit the sin the same day you’re OK, but a week later it’s deadly?

Now, as to receiving communion and absolution and then committing a grave sin against God with full knowledge and full consent, do people really do that? Do they really go to confession, go to communion, and then go home and commit a grave sin with full knowledge and consent? Can you imagine somebody behaving that way? I sure can’t.

Further, as to dying immediately after one commits a mortal sin, no sin is mortal without full knowledge and consent. Therefore, you know it’s mortal when you do it. If you’re not repentant right away, who’s to say you’ll be repentant later? What about a person who dies a week after committing a mortal sin without repenting? Maybe they would have repented after another week. What about dying a year later without repenting? Maybe they would have repented after another year. I think your focus on the time element is leading you to unwarranted assumptions about what is just and what is unjust, as far as God’s actions go.

I fully believe that most of us are not immediatly repentant after sinning.
Its not like somone will masturbate and then right after ejaculating fall into a gigantic guilt fit. Im saying that if right after somone does the mortal sin, than dies, how can it be damning? Especially if that person is a full fledged Christian. (And yes full fledged Christians do commit mortal sins…I dont like it when people give me that “well if you did have a lot of faith you wouldnt do the sin in the first place.” The fact is we do mortally sin, and no one knows if were gonna have a heart attack right afterwards.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

doomhammer:

just imitate the repentant one.

not quite sure how that can apply to this?

 

[RyanL]

Agnus_Dei:

Well until I get a direct response…

Ill just comment on what you said.

Why did Jesus tell us more about Hell than Heaven?
Becuase when he came to Earth, heaven touched down on earth as well.

Salvation was with us, side by side with us.

To think that the criminal next to Christ (not the repentant one)
might have repented within the next five minutes, seeing Jesus next to him, and putting all his faith in him, but unfortunatly got his legs broken and died is strange to me.

I never knew God followed the logic of
“Tough Luck”

Hmmph. I would have thought that Jesus talked to us more about Hell because He *really really *doesn’t want us to end up there. It’s almost as if He was desperate to keep us out…so much so that He would literally die to get our attention…to show us how much He really loves us and wants us for His own…so desperate for us that He would endure scourging and crucifixion just to keep us out of Hell…constantly warning us of the consequences of our actions…if it was all about happy-friendly-salvation, I wouldn’t have expected Him to talk much about Hell at all…ya’ know, in reading the Passion accounts, there’s one phrase that always strikes me as misplaced…or maybe it’s not…the phrase is, “I thirst.” Do you think He was simply thirsty? Wanted some water? Or do you think that maybe He was telling us something more? Maybe that He thirsts for us? Just a thought.

So what do you think would be the appropriate response to such love? Would it be ignoring that Love and instead shamefully skulking off to a secluded spot to misuse the magnificent gift of sexuality for your own selfish self-gratification?

Just some thoughts. No need to respond.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[doomhammer]

Agnus_Dei:

not quite sure how that can apply to this?

do not worry about the “Bad Thief”.
Christ is not going to ask you about the “Bad Thief”. He is going to ask about you. Worry about you, thus imitate the “Good Thief”. Certainly a sinner, but who accepted God’s grace. Stick to the cross of Christ. There is no sin there. Only mercy.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

doomhammer:

do not worry about the “Bad Thief”.
Christ is not going to ask you about the “Bad Thief”. He is going to ask about you. Worry about you, thus imitate the “Good Thief”. Certainly a sinner, but who accepted God’s grace. Stick to the cross of Christ. There is no sin there. Only mercy.

beautiful words
of course I dont plan on imitating the bad thief
he was just a scenario for the thread.
Anyone left who is still following what im really trying to ask
willing to answer?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

RyanL:

Hmmph. I would have thought that Jesus talked to us more about Hell because He *really really *doesn’t want us to end up there. It’s almost as if He was desperate to keep us out…so much so that He would literally die to get our attention…to show us how much He really loves us and wants us for His own…so desperate for us that He would endure scourging and crucifixion just to keep us out of Hell…constantly warning us of the consequences of our actions…if it was all about happy-friendly-salvation, I wouldn’t have expected Him to talk much about Hell at all…ya’ know, in reading the Passion accounts, there’s one phrase that always strikes me as misplaced…or maybe it’s not…the phrase is, “I thirst.” Do you think He was simply thirsty? Wanted some water? Or do you think that maybe He was telling us something more? Maybe that He thirsts for us? Just a thought.

So what do you think would be the appropriate response to such love? Would it be ignoring that Love and instead shamefully skulking off to a secluded spot to misuse the magnificent gift of sexuality for your own selfish self-gratification?

Just some thoughts. No need to respond.

God Bless,
RyanL

thats my point tho
what if we dont ignore that love
what if we live by christ all our lives
then cheat on our wife
and during the act
die of a heart attack
with no chance for us to confess
if that damns us?
that ruins the whole point of the Gospel
especially since the New Testament is so keen on people
not following the word of the law
but the spirit of the law

 

[VociMike]

Agnus_Dei:

I fully believe that most of us are not immediatly repentant after sinning.
Its not like somone will masturbate and then right after ejaculating fall into a gigantic guilt fit. Im saying that if right after somone does the mortal sin, than dies, how can it be damning? Especially if that person is a full fledged Christian. (And yes full fledged Christians do commit mortal sins…I dont like it when people give me that “well if you did have a lot of faith you wouldnt do the sin in the first place.” The fact is we do mortally sin, and no one knows if were gonna have a heart attack right afterwards.

In the first place, I have not claimed that committed Christians do not commit mortal sin. I do claim that committed Christians are aware of mortal sin they commit. If a Christian with a properly formed conscience does not know they are committing a mortal sin, then it’s just not a mortal sin – it can’t be, because there is not full knowledge.

Back to this time element you’re focused on. You seem convinced that there is some minimum time after committing a mortal sin when it would be unjust for the person to die and go to hell, but (by implication), after that time it would not be unjust for the person to die and go to hell. Let us say for the sake of argument that the time period is 24 hours. How can it be just to allow a person into heaven if they die 23 hours and 59 minutes after committing a mortal sin, but to condemn them to hell if they die 2 minutes later (24 hours and 1 minute)? It makes no sense to attach a time period to this most fundamental decision made by God on the part of any person.

The only solution that I can imagine that fits in with both the justice and the mercy of God is that every person in a state of mortal sin is given a chance to repent before they die (or even while they are dying). Either that, or God knows that the person would not repent in any possible future. God, who can see all possible futures, is not going to send somebody to hell knowing that the person would have repented if he had lived another 15 minutes. Thus, IMHO, when a person dies they have already made the irrevocable decision for God or against God, and another few minutes or days or weeks or months will not change their decision.

 

[RyanL]

Agnus_Dei:

if we live by christ all our lives ******
…
then cheat on our wife
I see these two as mutually exclusive. KWIM?

It’s like saying, “If I love my wife above all others and cheat on her just once, why would she be mad? I’ve loved her all my life!”

Is the above scenario about the spirit of the law or the letter?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[doomhammer]

Agnus_Dei:

And what did Christ’s death on the Cross win for us if we are still justified by faith AND works.

do you understand…
that the Cross is a sign of Contradiction?
Saves the repentant, condemns the unrepentant (those who die in mortal sin).

 

[Agnus_Dei]

VociMike:

In the first place, I have not claimed that committed Christians do not commit mortal sin. I do claim that committed Christians are aware of mortal sin they commit. If a Christian with a properly formed conscience does not know they are committing a mortal sin, then it’s just not a mortal sin – it can’t be, because there is not full knowledge.

Back to this time element you’re focused on. You seem convinced that there is some minimum time after committing a mortal sin when it would be unjust for the person to die and go to hell, but (by implication), after that time it would not be unjust for the person to die and go to hell. Let us say for the sake of argument that the time period is 24 hours. How can it be just to allow a person into heaven if they die 23 hours and 59 minutes after committing a mortal sin, but to condemn them to hell if they die 2 minutes later (24 hours and 1 minute)? It makes no sense to attach a time period to this most fundamental decision made by God on the part of any person.

The only solution that I can imagine that fits in with both the justice and the mercy of God is that every person in a state of mortal sin is given a chance to repent before they die (or even while they are dying). God, who can see all possible futures, is not going to send somebody to hell knowing that the person would have repented if he had lived another 15 minutes. Thus, IMHO, when a person dies they have already made the irrevocable decision for God or against God, and another few minutes or days or weeks or months will not change their decision.

No…quite contrary
I am against Time limits
but it seems that by the reasoning of the repliers
one act can forfit all faith, all devotion, all works,
all graces obtained,
if somone dies still in that sin.
The immediate dying is only a symbol of that.
I would consider somone who did a mortal sin but lived a wholy christian life in Christ still a Christian
and i dont understand that if he died immediatly thereafter
he could be condemned despite having the holy spirit
and the eucharist within him

but if somone were to say remain in mortal sin for a long time (or even a minute)
without the will to repent
as in
without the slightest thought of returning to Christ
and he then died
by all means let him chat with Satan

but I dont understand how somone who fell into temptation
but is a christian who died before even being able to feel true guilty or remorse
can be damned
literally forfitting the saving works of Christ Jesus
the Lamb of God

 

[VociMike]

I would like to ask Agnus_Dei, who does go to hell? What causes a person to be justly sentenced to hell?

 

[doomhammer]

Agnus_Dei:

since the New Testament is so keen on people not following the word of the law but the spirit of the law

where does “mortal sin” enter here?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

VociMike:

I would like to ask Agnus_Dei, who does go to hell? What causes a person to be justly sentenced to hell?

Somone who does not have faith in Christ, or falls away from that faith, or has faith but no works (thus not really having faith)
or who commits a mortal sin then refuses to repent (not fail to repent)

But these things are up to Gods Judgement

the one clear definition of the damned in my opinion
is anyone who believes something
opposing to these things

The Trinity
and the three Creeds

 

[doomhammer]

Agnus_Dei:

i dont understand that if he died immediatly thereafter
he could be condemned despite having the holy spirit
and the eucharist within him

well…
if he is in mortal sin the holy spirit and the eucharist are not in him anymore…
your answer is in your question…

 

[Agnus_Dei]

doomhammer:

well…
if he is in mortal sin the holy spirit and the eucharist are not in him anymore…
your answer is in your question…

right so thats great
so if Pope John Paul II (god bless him) commited a mortal sin on April 4th, would have obviously repented but stopped breathing and died
He does not have the holy spirit or eucharist within him
and is damned
…whatever

and in order for the holy spirirt to leave us
we have to be rebaptized
the holy spirit is in us until we leave the faith
not until we mortally sin
besides, by leaving the faith we leave the holy spirit
not vice versa
(and leaving the faith and mortally sinning are different things…even though leaving the faith is a mortal sin)

Confusing?

Welcome to my world.

 

[doomhammer]

Agnus_Dei:

Confusing? Welcome to my world.

i’m laughing right now!!!

 

[DeFide]

Agnus_Dei:

right so thats great
so if Pope John Paul II (god bless him) commited a mortal sin on April 4th, would have obviously repented but stopped breathing and died
He does not have the holy spirit or eucharist within him
and is damned

Confusing?

Welcome to my world.

I think you have to trust that God knows your heart and that He is just. God will take you from this world at a time of His choosing. Don’t worry about that, as you have no control over that. Focus on accepting His graces at every opportunity, and focus on accepting His will, not your own.

 

[doomhammer]

Agnus_Dei:

if Pope John Paul II (god bless him) commited a mortal sin on April 4th, would have obviously repented but stopped breathing and died

your examples are so funny…
why Pope John Paul II (god bless him) would have commited a mortal sin on April 4th?
anyway… pray the Lord to give you more time…

 

[doomhammer]

Mark 14, 38: “Watch and pray that you may not undergo the test. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak."

 

[Agnus_Dei]

DeFide:

I think you have to trust that God knows your heart and that He is just. God will take you from this world at a time of His choosing. Don’t worry about that, as you have no control over that. Focus on accepting His graces at every opportunity, and focus on accepting His will, not your own.

So now…that unfortunate nameless man
(actually lets name our anonymous masturbater Jack Oferson…pun slightly intended)

Okay so now that we have put ones death into the hands of God…has God decided to ‘doom’ Jack by allowing him to die right after or during a mortal sin?

Sorry for the long pause in between…i was eating.

And the fact that God is knowing and just is exactly WHY I hate the idea of dying in mortal sin puts you straight in hell in EVERY circumstance. I do however believe that dying in mortal sin does put you in hell if you refuse to repent…not fail to.