Two Questions about "if we die in mortal sin we go to hell"

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By the way…I was wondering if when you guys said my examples were funny…are you being rude/mocking
or just commetning…
either way it doesnt bother me
just curious

(my wording hasnt been particularly polite either…i get agitated easily and I apologize)

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Hi

Just a couple thoughts on the subject, my :twocents: …

The Church didn’t arbitrarily decide to name the Mortal sins - it is an infallibly guided definition by the Holy Spirit. Called ‘Mortal’ for a reason - they will kill you.

Also - for any sin to be mortal it must come under the heading of mortal, you must Know it is a Mortal sin - and therefore will kill you (should you die prior to confession), and yet you choose to do it anyway, completely consenting (without coercion I assume here? Help anyone?). Along with knowing it is a Mortal sin: you evidently have made it OK with yourself to do it because you can go to confession and be forgiven - Presumption is added to the list now.

I see it as - you know the gun is loaded, you point it at your head anyway, and you pull the trigger, assuming that the ambulance will get there in time. When the ambulance doesn’t come - Are you now going to complain that you’re dead, and it wasn’t fair?

A mortal sin isn’t just a slip of the tongue, forgetting to return a pen, or a momentary bout with Lust over a woman (or man) walking down the street - it is a planned action, with full knowledge of the consequences, and doing it anyway.

God, in His infinite mercy for us sinners - allows us so much, and so much time to overcome, is it His fault, His unfairness, if we go to hell anyway? Justification is free - what do we have to complain about?

Peace

John
 
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PraRFLEsEkHm:
Hi

Just a couple thoughts on the subject, my :twocents: …

The Church didn’t arbitrarily decide to name the Mortal sins - it is an infallibly guided definition by the Holy Spirit. Called ‘Mortal’ for a reason - they will kill you.

Also - for any sin to be mortal it must come under the heading of mortal, you must Know it is a Mortal sin - and therefore will kill you (should you die prior to confession), and yet you choose to do it anyway, completely consenting (without coercion I assume here? Help anyone?). Along with knowing it is a Mortal sin: you evidently have made it OK with yourself to do it because you can go to confession and be forgiven - Presumption is added to the list now.

I see it as - you know the gun is loaded, you point it at your head anyway, and you pull the trigger, assuming that the ambulance will get there in time. When the ambulance doesn’t come - Are you now going to complain that you’re dead, and it wasn’t fair?

A mortal sin isn’t just a slip of the tongue, forgetting to return a pen, or a momentary bout with Lust over a woman (or man) walking down the street - it is a planned action, with full knowledge of the consequences, and doing it anyway.

God, in His infinite mercy for us sinners - allows us so much, and so much time to overcome, is it His fault, His unfairness, if we go to hell anyway? Justification is free - what do we have to complain about?

Peace

John
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I like the way you put it
But masterbation is not physically deadly
and most of us plan to live thereafter
so it cannot be seen in the same light as suicide
since most of us do not plan to live thereafter…lol
so in the case of masterbation
it seems very blasphemous to suggest
that somone born again int he waters of baptism
brought into physical communion with christ in the eucharist
and expressing true faith and honest works
can fall into temptation as all men do
and unfortunatly be plucked from the sands of time
without a chance to be forgiven
and then be refused salvation

this is my problem with the idea
 
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Agnus_Dei:
I like the way you put it
But masterbation is not physically deadly
and most of us plan to live thereafter
so it cannot be seen in the same light as suicide
since most of us do not plan to live thereafter…lol
so in the case of masterbation
it seems very blasphemous to suggest
that somone born again int he waters of baptism
brought into physical communion with christ in the eucharist
and expressing true faith and honest works
can fall into temptation as all men do
and unfortunatly be plucked from the sands of time
without a chance to be forgiven
and then be refused salvation

this is my problem with the idea
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No - it is not physically deadly, it is spiritually deadly. As Christ said - if the strong man new when the theif was coming, he would have stayed up and prepared. That is the point…and the point of the sin of presumption. We never know the day nor the hour of His coming nor our going. I think the key to unlocking your understanding is the phrase ‘Falling into temptation’ - Mortal sin is not something you ‘Fall Into’ - it is, by definition - a planned act, with full knowledge of the consequences: Such as putting a loaded gun to your head.

Peace

John
 
well, actually I guess you could say it is physically deadly as well…it just is not the thing that takes you out of this world…or is it? :whistle:
 
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PraRFLEsEkHm:
No - it is not physically deadly, it is spiritually deadly. As Christ said - if the strong man new when the theif was coming, he would have stayed up and prepared. That is the point…and the point of the sin of presumption. We never know the day nor the hour of His coming nor our going. I think the key to unlocking your understanding is the phrase ‘Falling into temptation’ - Mortal sin is not something you ‘Fall Into’ - it is, by definition - a planned act, with full knowledge of the consequences: Such as putting a loaded gun to your head.

Peace

John
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then do you truly believe that masturbating can remove the Holy Spirit and the cleasning Blood of Christ from somones body?

If it doesnt…how can it damn them?

If it does…why do we need anything else besides Confession.
Why Eucharist, Baptism, Faith, Works
 
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PraRFLEsEkHm:
well, actually I guess you could say it is physically deadly as well…it just is not the thing that takes you out of this world…or is it? :whistle:
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from a medical perspective it is not physically deadly
and when speaking physical
a medical perspective is what counts
lol
 
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Agnus_Dei:
then do you truly believe that masturbating can remove the Holy Spirit and the cleasning Blood of Christ from somones body?

If it doesnt…how can it damn them?

If it does…why do we need anything else besides Confession.
Why Eucharist, Baptism, Faith, Works
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Mortal sin removes the Spirit from us, and so removes us from God - because we chose that. Willingly turned away from Him, with full knowledge and consent. Confession restores that state to us - providing we get there, and do it, in the spirit of repentance. The Eucharist gives us strength to resist - not only Mortal sin, but all sin, even the occasion of sin. He is present in the Eucharist to lead us ever deeper into conversion. baptism removes the stain of original sin, and opens the door for conversion - Faith is what precipitates that conversion through justification, which gives us the grace necessary for sanctification - which is the process of conversion. works is 'work out your salvation, with fear and trembling ’ that part is in there for good reason - we don’t know when He will return for us. Also, the Part in Matthew where Christ says - “Many will say to me in that day Lord, Lord…” matthew 7:12-27

Peace

John
 
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Agnus_Dei:
from a medical perspective it is not physically deadly
and when speaking physical
a medical perspective is what counts
lol
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No, not from a medical perspective…but then we’re talking about Gods perspective here, aren’t we? 😉

Peace

John
 
What about when the bible says that
all those who believe in christ will be saved?

and

Christ did not come for the righteous but for the sinful

Isnt it after all faith infused with works
works mainly there to strengthen it

its not works mingled with faith

abstaining from sin being a work in a broad sense
 
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Agnus_Dei:
then do you truly believe that masturbating can remove the Holy Spirit and the cleasning Blood of Christ from somones body?

If it doesnt…how can it damn them?

If it does…why do we need anything else besides Confession.
Why Eucharist, Baptism, Faith, Works
Click to expand...
I think you need to stop focusing on masturbation, because it pretty clearly doesn’t seem as deadly to you (it doesn’t seem as deadly to me either). Replace masturbation with violent child rape. Now, tell us what you think should happen, and what will happen, to your Christian who went to confession and communion in the morning, then is suddenly killed while violently raping a child.
 
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PraRFLEsEkHm:
No, not from a medical perspective…but then we’re talking about Gods perspective here, aren’t we? 😉

Peace

John
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sure but u did say that it was physically harmful
anyways im not trying to advocate masterbation
dont get me wrong
 
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Agnus_Dei:
What about when the bible says that
all those who believe in christ will be saved?

and

Christ did not come for the righteous but for the sinful

Isnt it after all faith infused with works
works mainly there to strengthen it

its not works mingled with faith

abstaining from sin being a work in a broad sense
Click to expand...
See matthew 7:12-27
James chapter 2 and 4
 
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VociMike:
I think you need to stop focusing on masturbation, because it pretty clearly doesn’t seem as deadly to you (it doesn’t seem as deadly to me either). Replace masturbation with violent child rape. Now, tell us what you think should happen, and what will happen, to your Christian who went to confession and communion in the morning, then is suddenly killed while violently raping a child.
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Good point…but I must not mix up human views with god’s view
its very easy for me to instantly condemn a rapist to hell
but that may not be the case
after all
the infamous child molestor John Geoghan
could very well be in heaven right now
i use masturbation as a example with a reason
because most can relate to that sin
(versus raping a child)
it is easier to understand that as wierd as the scenario of dying while masturbating is
it can indeed happen
and we would feel cheated
 
This is probably the most ridiculous thread I have ever read. My answer at the very beginning is this: You have to “want” to commit a mortal sin, you have to know it is a mortal sin and you do it anyway. My advice to you, don’t do what you think may be a mortal sin. You are making the choice. So, if a airplane lands on your head and you are in the state of Mortal Sin, YOU CHOSE THAT CONDITION. To hell you go! Why is that so hard to understand. We always have a choice.
 
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PraRFLEsEkHm:
See matthew 7:12-27
James chapter 2 and 4
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I perfectly understand justification by faith infused with works
thats not the issue
the issue is that faith can be canceled out by one act of masterbation where a chance of repentance is unavailable.
 
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coeyannie:
This is probably the most ridiculous thread I have ever read. My answer at the very beginning is this: You have to “want” to commit a mortal sin, you have to know it is a mortal sin and you do it anyway. My advice to you, don’t do what you think may be a mortal sin. You are making the choice. So, if a airplane lands on your head and you are in the state of Mortal Sin, YOU CHOSE THAT CONDITION. To hell you go! Why is that so hard to understand. Besides, people who are observing the way of Christ and receiving Holy Communion and receiving the Sacrament of Penance are usually not going to put themselves in a position to have to choose to commit a mortal sin, or stay in the state of grace. :rolleyes:
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John Geoghan not only recieved communion
he consecrated the very bread

and thanks for your comment on this thread
while the mood of this thread is very light and humorous
the questions are serious
so i dont appreciate your comment
especially since this is my only problem with the catholic faith
and i would kill to be able to be more like you
a loyal follower of the church without doubt
u shud be grateful for that
:rolleyes:
 
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coeyannie:
This is probably the most ridiculous thread I have ever read. My answer at the very beginning is this: You have to “want” to commit a mortal sin, you have to know it is a mortal sin and you do it anyway. My advice to you, don’t do what you think may be a mortal sin. You are making the choice. So, if a airplane lands on your head and you are in the state of Mortal Sin, YOU CHOSE THAT CONDITION. To hell you go! Why is that so hard to understand. We always have a choice.
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Also I know that if you are in the state of mortal sin you go to hell if you die unrepentant
but what if you never have a chance to repent
thats the thing…
and i also understand that people have to 'want" to commit a mortal sin in order for it to be well…mortal
but it still seems to take a lil bit to much off calvary and unto ourselves.
 
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Agnus_Dei:
Also I know that if you are in the state of mortal sin you go to hell if you die unrepentant
but what if you never have a chance to repent
thats the thing…
and i also understand that people have to 'want" to commit a mortal sin in order for it to be well…mortal
but it still seems to take a lil bit to much off calvary and unto ourselves.
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emphasis mine

That IS the thing…see?

MT 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
MT 7:22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?
MT 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Even those who God appears to bless, are not ‘saved’…how much more those who refuse the grace to overcome sin? I do not see God as sitting in heaven, waiting for us to commit a mortal sin - just to pull the plug right then and there. Christ died for us, every one of us - God loves us, it is we who by repeatedly moving away from Him condemn ourselves.

God knows what is in our hearts, and knows when enough is enough - His servant will no longer move ahead…but has found a ‘comfort zone’ and refuses His grace to move on to perfection. That man has much to answer for.

Peace

John
 
As an afterthought, which kind of goes along with my previous post:

REV 3:16 But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, nor hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.

It’s all about obediance, and living the Gospel through the many graces available to us.

Peace
John
 
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