Two Questions about "if we die in mortal sin we go to hell"

[YinYangMom]

Agnus_Dei:

I know that I may have started this thread as St. Paul writes
“With ears itching for what they want to hear”
And I didnt hear it. I dont know how in the world

somone can be baptized, recieve Christ’s body and blood, have true faith and strengthen that faith with works than fall into temptation, masturbate and unexpectadly die.

Then hear Jesus say, “I never knew you”

Go back one step and then perhaps you’ll understand.

You find it incomprehensible that Jesus would say in one instant “I never knew you” after an eternity having loved each and every one of us and having sacrificed Himself on the cross for us.

And yet you do not find it incomprehensible that a person could knowingly and willingly commit a mortal sin against God. That in that instant HE/SHE is saying to Jesus, “I never knew You”.

…now, should he/she die right after that instant it is he/she who rejected Jesus, leaving Jesus no choice but to allow that person to go in the direction he/she chose in that instant before their death.

This is why the readings of ‘not knowing the day nor the hour’ and always being prepared are so crucial to our daily living.

**Each **decision, each action we take in this life journey is critical to our salvation. We cannot ‘fall back’ on the Sacrament of Reconciliation, or on our past decisions saving us in the end when we at any given time choose to do something we know is grave matter, offensive to God and is ‘mortal’. It’s considered mortal for just that reason. We are not to dismiss that lightly.

 

[doomhammer]

Agnus_Dei:

How could the eternal, unimaginable mystery of God dying on the Cross, possibly be undone by one mortal sin!
How!?
I feel like everything is collapsing now
I feel forsaken and betrayed…somone help.

ok, back to work here!
do you understand this?

COUNCIL OF TRENT DECREE ON THE SACRAMENTS -On Baptism-
Canon VI. If any one saith, that one who has been baptized cannot, even if he would, lose grace, let him sin ever so much, unless he will not believe; let him be anathema.

 

[YinYangMom]

Agnus_Dei:

Yes I’m clear on what a mortal sin is.
What I am not clear on, and what i want to know is,
how can commiting a mortal sin and then immediatly (in the most literal sense) dying afterwards can damn you despite lets say
recieving communion and absolution earlier that day.
Provided you are also baptized, and full of faith in Christ.
With a clean slate of good works to help beef up your faith.

Committing a mortal sin is a DECISION on the part of the person committing it. You’re making it sound like something which just ‘happens’ to a person without their consent, and so yeah, if that were the case it would seem unjust to be condemned forever. But see, we each condemn ourselves with the bad decisions we make. We, who are baptized, living the faith, doing good works know darn well what is pleasing to God and what isn’t. And as Jesus said, to whom much is given much is expected, so that it is even more the justification for our instant damnation at that time…we can’t claim ignorance.

 

[YinYangMom]

Agnus_Dei:

This is just horrible news.
That masturbating once while some roof top sniper has his target on your head, and then getting shot during or therafter.
Can forfit everything in your life, all the graces you have obtained through the Sacraments, your faith in Christ, your love of God, your devotion to the Word, and especially your trust in the awesome event of Calvary.
Horible, horrible news, I feel like crying.
Almost as if the light of the Catholic Church as I once saw it,
as a Pillar and Foundation of Truth,
had been snuffed out.

Christ’s death is meaningless, if it can be put in vain
by one simple sin right before you die,
without a chance to repent.

Horrible…

Masturbation is not a simple sin. It is a MORTAL sin and one we choose to commit or not.

As for Christ’s death being meaningless, by being put in vain, just remember, is is we who make his death meaningless when we choose to take it for granted, toss it aside along with all of His teachings.

But still, do not despair, as an earlier poster pointed out…no one knows the state of one’s soul at the moment of death. It takes but a desire of the heart to repent of all sins as the roof begins to fall to save that person from eternal damnation. One only has to say or think or desire: Jesus forgive me… which is why the Church, the Pillar of Truth, cannot say definitively that a person who commits suicide is damned to hell instantaneously.

 

[YinYangMom]

Agnus_Dei:

I must not mix up human views with god’s view
its very easy for me to instantly condemn a rapist to hell
but that may not be the case
after all
the infamous child molestor John Geoghan
could very well be in heaven right now

Well that’s because the roof didn’t collapse on his head right after the act of mortal sin he committed…

what if during the act or immediate after, he had died?

Would you expect him to be in heaven or hell?

 

[YinYangMom]

Agnus_Dei:

Also I know that if you are in the state of mortal sin you go to hell if you die unrepentant
but what if you never have a chance to repent
thats the thing…

Why choose to commit a mortal sin in the first place?
You’ve made it clear throughout this thread that we’re talking about baptized Catholics who live their entire lives in a state of grace, participating in the sacraments (from where they receive that grace), doing good works to atone for any flaws in their personalities and such.

That’s the trouble I’m having with your issue…
it sounds like you feel the unjust situation is that the person didn’t get a chance to repent before they died…but if they never chose to commit a mortal sin in the first place having a chance to repent isn’t a factor.

The point to the teaching of the Church (which of course, is Christ’s teaching) is to not rely on having that opportunity to repent…to live every moment as if it literally were your last ‘for you know not the day nor the hour’.

You say you understand what mortal sin is and yet you keep posing the act of sinning as if it just ‘happens’ to somebody. That’s not how mortal sin works. In the action of committing a mortal sin a person is rejecting Christ and His death on the cross.

One thing I picked up on in an earlier post of yours is that you speak of the sin as ‘falling into temptation’. Do we really ‘fall’ into temptation or ‘walk’ into temptation with regard to ‘mortal’ sin?

There is an open door with a neon sign flashing “Death to all who enter here”…curiosity, temptation, whatever, gets the better of us (or does it ‘get’? I would submit, we give into it…)…and we walk through the door. We don’t get pushed, we don’t trip, we don’t ‘accidentally’ stumble…we actually put one foot in front of the other, with our intellect and our will, to move in that direction.

Why would anyone be surprised to find out when they cross the threshold that the sign really meant what it posted???

 

[YinYangMom]

Archbishop:

I would hate to live my Christian life knowing that at any minute or second, I might commit a sin, and not have time to repent of it, and be condemned to hell for all eternity, in spite of the trust and faith that I had placed in the death of Christ on Calvary for my salvation, and the graces I had received from the Sacraments of Holy Mother Church throughout my life.

Abp +Mark

Please explain how a person who has such trust and faith placed in the death of Christ on Calvary for their salvation can **choose **to knowingly and willingly commit a mortal sin.

In this discussion of being damned for one act, one choice, despite a lifetime of devotion, keep in mind we are discussing mortal sin…not venial, not temptation, not weaknesses, not struggles or flaws…but those things we know full well are against God’s commandments, we know full well will result in our eternal damnation if we should have the unfortunately luck to die during the act or before we find it in our hearts to repent of it, and knowing both those things we choose to do it anyway.

I honestly cannot comprehend a person of such love and faith and appreciation for Christ actually committing any mortal sin as defined by the Church.

I’ve certainly committed sins against the commandments in my past, but in every single instance, when reflecting back upon the circumstances surrounding the situation they were not fully ‘mortal’ on my part. I never fully understood or appreciated how grave the offense was and/or I didn’t understand/know that if I went ahead and did it I’d be damned had I died in that moment.

Still, once I did come to learn how serious those acts were I ran to confession and got them off my soul as soon as possible and have not even entertained the thought of doing anything like that ever again. I know better now, and I know full well that if I were to do any of those things again, I’d be damned and I’d only have myself to blame. God would be well within HIs rights to let me go.

Anyway, knowing all that now keeps me far away from anything that could lead to ‘mortal’ sin…temptation be damned, not me…whenever I am tempted I pray fervently for strength because I could not bear to hurt Christ in such a way, to so easily toss aside His sacrifice for me. That’s enough to keep me from ‘falling’.

 

[doomhammer]

Agnus_Dei:

By the way…I was wondering if when you guys said my examples were funny…are you being rude/mocking
or just commetning…either way it doesnt bother me just curious
(my wording hasnt been particularly polite either…i get agitated easily and I apologize)

i mean “funny” in the good sense, have you changed the title of the thread? why?

 

[mozart-250]

Mijoy2:

Remember: Grave matter (your example always is) , full knowledge and full consent (much more subjective).

Yes it is very subjective. And I can be quite lawyerly if I so choose.

Full and complete are words that leaves no margin for ambiguity, (much like “alone”). Plus the word “And” means both conditions must be true. If an act is done with 100% knowledge and 99% consent it is no more “full knowledge and complete consent” than 10% knowledge and 0% consent.

Now the Catechism reads to me quite ambiguous as to what full and complete actually is. It mentions that feelings and passions diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense. Now if the voluntary and free character of the offense is diminished, it is by definition no longer full (just being lawyerly here).

And when Christians normally sin, aren’t there some measures of feelings and passions involved? Just asking because in my case they are.

Yes, the Catechism reads quite ambiguous to me. I know not from reading the Catechism what exactly “full knowledge and complete consent” is, much less the point in time at which mortality is reached. Which is good, because when there is ambiguity it gives wide latitude for the judge of us all to decide indivually with justice and mercy.

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

mozart-250:

Yes it is very subjective. And I can be quite lawyerly if I so choose.

Full and complete are words that leaves no margin for ambiguity, (much like “alone”). Plus the word “And” means both conditions must be true. If an act is done with 100% knowledge and 99% consent it is no more “full knowledge and complete consent” than 10% knowledge and 0% consent.

Now the Catechism reads to me quite ambiguous as to what full and complete actually is. It mentions that feelings and passions diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense. Now if the voluntary and free character of the offense is diminished, it is by definition no longer full (just being lawyerly here).

And when Christians normally sin, aren’t there some measures of feelings and passions involved? Just asking because in my case they are.

Yes, the Catechism reads quite ambiguous to me. I know not from reading the Catechism what exactly “full knowledge and complete consent” is, much less the point in time at which mortality is reached. Which is good, because when there is ambiguity it gives wide latitude for the judge of us all to decide indivually with justice and mercy.

It seems to me, given my personal experience on the matter - that when the moment of decision is reached (That moment just before the commission of the act) the Holy Spirit steps in, regardless of the ‘feelings and passions’ involved, and says (in effect) WAIT! Grace. Anything after that is Choice…and therefore - culpability. We are still talking, I presume, about a formed conscience - and not one in the initial stages of developement, where such things have little clear meaning - as the premise of this thread stated.

I also think, given sufficient time - one can convince themselves of anything, and rationalise themselves directly onto the express escalator to hell. It is well and good (again i n my opinion) to understand what is and is not a Mortal sin - scrupulosity demands the same - in order to not go too far, and not far enough, therebye damaging ourselves and limiting our progress. Just because we might not get sent to hell for doing something - is not a valid reason to do it. ANY sin hurts our Lord, and damages us - an accumulation of venial sins weighs on the soul and makes us more prone to Mortal sin.

The Catholic position is clear and unambiguous when read with a formed conscience: We KNOW what is a Mortal sin, before ever taking the step to commit it, otherwise the search for a ‘backdoor’ to it’s forgiveness, or expiation at the moment of death would never have arisen in the first place. Again - I look at the Children of Israel in the Desert, and the words of God:

PS 94:8 To day if you shall hear his voice, harden not your hearts:
9 As in the provocation, according to the day of temptation in the wilderness: where your fathers tempted me, they proved me, and saw my works.
10 Forty years long was I offended with that generation, and I said: These always err in heart.
11 And these men have not known my ways: so I swore in my wrath that they shall not enter into my rest.

we are to strive against sin…not say in our hearts “well - this ones OK” Mortal is a CHOICE - why the Lord said “In that day there will be great weeping and gnashing of teeth”…many will think they have salvation…many will be wrong.

Pray for understanding - lean NOT to your OWN understanding, but pray for His understanding and wisdom.

Peace

John

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I understand where you are coming from
but i believe that everyone here who has commited a mortal sin can understand my next point
masturbating with full consent may be an act of disobediance to God
but how is it openly rejecting him
every sin, mortal or venial, is a act of disobediance to god
buth during even mortal sins
like even during (not after) John Geoghan was molesting a child…i dont doubt that he STILL had faith in God
to say otherwise would be trying to say that
while Eve was eating the Apple she no longer loved, believer, had faith in God
a change of heart is a deciscion over time to utterly refuse something
we recieve a change of heart when we recieve Baptism
from a lost person we become a found person
but when that found person commits a mortal sin
its not like he chose to completly deny Jesus’ saving work
which some of you are implying
he simply chose to disobey God
he is still a found person
because there is no way that even murder could “nullify” faith
what about murdering a muslim because you hate his religion and hate what muslims do to Christians in the middle east
it is a mortal sin
but while your doing the mortal sin
theres no way you could reject Christ
because in your mindset…you were killing the man FOR christ
(even though thats not what He would have wanted…but u get my pic right)
personally when I masturbate
I dont feel that for those few minutes
God has left me
rather I feel that God is looking down saddened on me
which is what drives me to repentance
but the whole idea trhat
if i masturbate god is warmin up the fires of hell for me
drives me to repentance through utter fear and terror
this is still my objection to the whole mortal sin =hell belief
and dont think im going to become Lutheran
I think that everything else the Catholic Church has is right
transubstatiation, Mary, veneration of saints, beatiful churches (i kno im vain), vestments, incensce, the pope, the rosary etc.
So if this problem drives me off…where will I go?
No other Church has what the Catholic Church has.
because the Catholic Church has the keys of heaven and hell
and Jesus Christ in every Mass
I just cant bring myself to understand this mortal sin thing
it seems to me that with this mortal sin thinking
we should just get baptized recieve communion
and then sit at home
literally still
until we die of starvation
that way we die in a state of grace
seems to be the only way i can think of…

 

[Agnus_Dei]

doomhammer:

i mean “funny” in the good sense, have you changed the title of the thread? why?

I didnt
I woke up today and the name was changed

 

[doomhammer]

Agnus_Dei:

No other Church has what the Catholic Church has.

a “little” correction here:
No other Church IS what the Catholic Church IS: the Mystical Body of Christ.
protestants do not constitute any “church” in proper sense. they are just heretics.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

doomhammer:

a “little” correction here:
No other Church IS what the Catholic Church IS: the Mystical Body of Christ.
protestants do not constitute any “church” in proper sense. they are just heretics.

that is what i meant reworded
but since the important points of my post was everything EXCEPT my little compliment to the RCC
i thot a response on the rest would be more helpful lol

 

[doomhammer]

Agnus_Dei:

i thot a response on the rest would be more helpful lol

but you have the answer!
COUNCIL OF TRENT DECREE ON THE SACRAMENTS -On Baptism- Canon VI. If any one saith, that one who has been baptized cannot, even if he would, lose grace, let him sin ever so much, unless he will not believe; let him be anathema.

“Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell.”

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Specifically the people who have been following this thread word for word
can you please provide an in-depth scenario of a mortal sin.
because looking back to the last time I masturbated I didnt feel like I was mortally sinnning.
So a in-depth scenario and a criteria of mortal sin would be useful.
Thanks~

 

[doomhammer]

“Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis”

 

[Agnus_Dei]

“Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis”

Lamb of God you take away the Sins of the World Have Mercy on Us
Latin is a beautiful language…

anyways anyone wanna give me what I asked for?

 

[doomhammer]

Agnus_Dei:

Yes I understand what a mortal sin is.
masturbation is a mortal sin.

you also know that “Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell”,

so, conclusion: whoever masturbates committing mortal sin and dying afterwards, goes to hell.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

okay…but what distincts venial from mortal sins
I have an idea about it
but id like a good explanation
complete with charts and diagrams
lol