Two Southern California Bishops challenge and ignore Rome's Liturgy Documents?

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GloriaPatri4

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How can they get away with it?

****I’m so angry right now. I just came across this article today. So many crazy (heretical) things have been happening in our diocese. I’m finally getting a better picture in my mind as to why it’s happening. The pieces of the puzzle are finally coming together. I guess I just wasn’t that aware or concerned about these things until they started happening in my parish and ever since then I keep uncovering more abuses, heresy, and dissent. ****

I can’t understand why these bishops are allowed to get away with these kinds of things? Is it just that people don’t know what’s going on or is it that they just don’t care? I’m just hopeful the Cavalry (The Vatican) will rescue us soon. ****

****Ignore, Ignore ****

**Bishop Brown Delays, Cardinal Mahony Challenges Rome’s Liturgy Document **

**BY CHRISTOPHER ZEHNDER **

**The language seems sufficiently **strong and clear. But not strong enough or clear enough, perhaps, for the diocese of Orange.

“This Instruction, prepared by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments by mandate of the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II … was approved by the same Pontiff … and he ordered it to be published and to observed immediately by all concerned” [emphasis added].

The diocese of Orange, it seems, has a unique definition for “immediately” and “by all concerned.” A June 11 memo sent to “Pastors, Priests, and Deacons” by Lesa Truxaw, directress of the diocese’s office of worship, admitted that the instruction, Redemptionis Sacramentum, issued by the Congregation for Divine Worship on March 25, “can offer us the opportunity to reaffirm the centrality of the Eucharist and the importance it has for our lives.” However, continued Truxaw, the instruction (which mandates correction of liturgical abuses) “needs to be viewed in the context of the recently issued General Instruction of the Roman Missal, the Encyclical Letter Ecclesia de Eucharistia, as well as the particular law of the Norms for the Distribution and Reception of Holy Communion Under Both Kinds in the Dioceses of the United States of America.” Truxaw noted that it is “helpful to remember that Instructions clarify the prescripts of laws, do not make new laws, and are an act of executive power and therefore of less juridic weight than a legislative text such as the General Instruction or of particular law of an Episcopal Conference.”

In other words, a congregation of the Holy See is inferior to a national bishops conference, a Vatican instruction (even one promulgated by the pope himself) is of little weight, and the clergy of the Orange diocese can with impunity blow it off. In fact, they are ordered to, by none other than the bishop himself. Truxaw continues that Bishop Tod Brown “is waiting for the deliberation of the Bishops’ Committee on the Liturgy, the Bishops’ Conference, and subsequent consultation with the Diocesan Liturgical Commission to determine if any change is needed in the liturgical practices of our Diocese. *Parishes are not to make any changes in their liturgical practices based on Redemptionis Sacramentum until this process is complete. *If any changes are needed, the Office of Worship will assist you with details and appropriate catechesis for the faithful.” [Emphasis added.]

Michael Dunnigan, who works with the San Antonio, Texas-based St. Joseph Foundation, an organization dealing with canon law issues, told me he thought Truxaw’s memorandum “is not entirely clear.” To Dunnigan “it seems to imply that an instruction is in some sense optional and that a bishop may decide for himself whether or not to follow it.” Citing canon law, Dunnigan said that an instruction is “a norm that clarifies the meaning of a law and that specifies how the law is to be executed.” As such it “is binding on those whose duty it is to execute the law.

“Bishops have the responsibility to execute the liturgical law of the Church and, accordingly, the instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum is binding on them,” Dunnigan said.

Please read article in its entirety by clicking on link
losangelesmission.com/ed/articles/2004/0409cz.htm
 
How do Bishops get away with it? Good question. I am angry also. Ironically I must have seen this article when it appeared in the Los Angeles Lay Catholic Mission but somehow it did not resonate with me. The Cardinal is very clever, or I should say devious, by ignoring it, who’s to complain. How many of the faithful really know much if anything about Liturgical Norms? I have been praying for sometime that these two hirelings will be removed. Let the Lord knock them from their saddles as he did St. Paul, for their own good and for the good of the Kingdom, according to His Holy Will. You pray too.

Chaity: The theological virtue by which we love God above all things for His own sake, and our neighbor as ourself for the Love of God.

Faith: The theological virtue by which we believe in God, everything He has said and revealed to us and everything Holy Mother Church proposes for our belief.

God saves.
 
What can you do when you comment/report a infraction to the diocese and their the offender ?

I’m sure Rome gets informed at some point, but the bishops ignore Rome’s guidelines.

Maybe the bishops need a bit of “tuff love”, a gentle stern fatherly correction.

Or maybe the bishops fear a backlash from their progressive laity.

james
 
People wonder why in the span of 30 years that 70 percent of catholics no longer practice their faith regularly.

Bishops need to strart looking themselves in the mirror.
The smoke of Satan has entered the church and his name is Mahoney and Brown. Don’t these people swear an allegiance to follow and obey the Pope and the directives of the church?
I think we need to bring back the prayer of Saint Michael in the liturgy for one thing. Its obvious that Satan has been busy in the church hierarchy the last 30 years. The child abuse was only part of the problem. There are many others including the attiutude of disobedience to ROme in the clergy.
 
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Maccabees:
People wonder why in the span of 30 years that 70 percent of catholics no longer practice their faith regularly.

Bishops need to strart looking themselves in the mirror.
The smoke of Satan has entered the church and his name is Mahoney and Brown. Don’t these people swear an allegiance to follow and obey the Pope and the directives of the church?
I think we need to bring back the prayer of Saint Michael in the liturgy for one thing. Its obvious that Satan has been busy in the church hierarchy the last 30 years. The child abuse was only part of the problem. There are many others including the attiutude of disobedience to ROme in the clergy.
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Final Message of the Blessed Virgin October 13, 1973

" My dear daughter, listen well to what I have to say to you. You will inform your superior."

“As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be punishment greater than the deluge, such as one will never have seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only arms that will remain for you will be the Rosary and Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the pope, the bishops, and the priests.”

“The work of the devil will infiltrate even the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against other bishops. The priests who venerate Me will be scorned and opposed by their conferees…churches and altars sacked, the Church will be full of those who accept compromise and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord. The demon will be especially implacable against souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of My sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will be no longer pardon for them.”
 
The article linked is from September of 2004.

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that a lot of these sort of stories are all old articles?
 
Well,

He surely flaunts his disobedience to Rome and the Holy Father, a true “progressive” Bishop, eh Nota.

You can’t say L.A. is without stain or shame with a shephard like Cardinal Mahony.

james

ps - I do live within his diocese, sad to say.
 
Now that is more and I guess my first question was out of line.

I think these two are in a group that is just waiting for the next Pope. They will then push their agenda ahead again and when it fails this time I think that they will lead a schism and form a new “American Catholic Church”.
 
The threat of open schism (since many parishes are already in real schism, they just refuse to admit it) is a very real one… a very wise priest once told me that the Church still feels the wounds of the split between the Eastern & Western Church, and again from the Reformation. The role of the Church is to try to be the father of the Prodigal Son – with firm conviction, but yet with open arms in an attempt to not send the children away forever. The mission of the Church is to help souls get to heaven. (before you angrily reply to me about the error of passivity, keep reading)

Because of this, the “tactic” of the Church (of the Holy Father) has been one of slow righting… the Titanic does not turn on a dime. We can always look back and say “what if” but all we can know is what actually happened. And look around you, look what has happened. Progressivism does not foster vocations to the priesthood or religious life. Over these past 26 years, our Church has quietly been inspiring and encouraging orthodoxy in the youth, and this effort is only now bearing fruit in the hierarchy of the Church.

We may say, and may even rightfully say, that our Church has not done enough enforcement. But at the same time, we must realize where we are NOW, and see the pattern that has been at work these last 26 years. We cannot change the past, or see what way would have been best, but we can see that, steadily, things have improved.

Think of all the innocent children who would be born into a schismatic church if the “American Catholic Church” did indeed proclaim itself to be split. Rome, I think, sees the trend, and has decided that it is better to LET IT DIE OUT rather than inspire open rebellion in formal schism that will only ensure further harm. This way, the children will still be here, even if the parents are lost to the wages of sin, which is death.

Of course, now that the numbers of orthodox priests and potential bishops has increased so greatly – we are very close to seeing a smackdown, I feel. The orthodox momentum has been gaining speed for years, and is finally almost upon us.

The time for action that will have lasting effect is NOW. Action earlier, with far less support of the pope, would have not had the same effect.

I think that very rapidly, in the course of a few short years, many of these heretical and schismatic bishops will find themselves removed or retired (or dead…many of them are quite old). The JPII priests and bishops are rapidly rising to power in the place of the old, tired progressives who are like feeble old men scratching and whining at their nurses.

+veritas+
 
+veritas+:
I think that very rapidly, in the course of a few short years, many of these heretical and schismatic bishops will find themselves removed or retired (or dead…many of them are quite old). The JPII priests and bishops are rapidly rising to power in the place of the old, tired progressives
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An excellent post, but it’s a fact that a good number of those dissenting bishops were JPII bishops!

JPII didn’t always get the best advice on making selections, it seems.
 
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ByzCath:
The article linked is from September of 2004.

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that a lot of these sort of stories are all old articles?
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Well news develops slow in the ecclesial world, so it’s not really that old. It’s recent.
 
I voted other… I don’t think enough Catholics know the Liturgy well enough to know what an abuse is or not…
 
Since the ordinary has already made his preemptive strike and caused local confusion by releasing this bogus statement, does that give the faithful just cause to bypass the Bishop and contact the Holy See directly?

From Redemptionis Sacramentum:

** 184.** Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has
the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop
or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on
account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as
possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop.
This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.
 
I voted for “other.” We’re trained to obey them, we’re trained that we’re not congregationalists, that the church is not a democracy (Thank God! Can you imagine how the American church would run amok if they got to elect their own bishops and pastors: “Today, the Primate and Matriarch of the American Catholic Church, Her Beatitude Joan Cardinal Chichester, announced that the Pope could take a long leap off a short pier.”). This is one of the risks that we run. We don’t want to appear to be rebels, so we just shut up and seethe. But you know, Rome, too, acts in much the same way. The Holy Father and the Congregations are bound to know that some of this goes on, yet they don’t want to embarass the derelict bishop, “give scandal” by having to discipline him, or trouble the faith of the flock by having to kick out a bishop. Ever wondered why some bishops, upon turning 75 and sending their retirement letter to the Holy Father, are kept on, sometimes for years, while others are granted their request just as soon as the letter is in the Pope’s hands, metaphorically at least? The former were faithful that he’s loathe to loose, or cannot replace immediately with someone of the same caliber. The latter are the Bishop Gumbletons. And our beloved old Holy Father was so old and so sick, I bet things got a little dusty in some of those back halls at the Vatican. Perhaps our Pope Benedict will swing his staff about a bit more, knock some heads. When the news media kept calling him “God’s Rotweiler,” and my fellow Catholics got upset, I thought,“Why not? A good rotweiler guards his Master’s House and chases out the intruders. For twenty-six years, we’ve had the velvet glove and they pissed and moaned about how rigid and conservative he was, let’s see what they make of the iron fist.” Sorry, this turned into a diatribe.:mad:
 
GloriaPatri4 said:
**Check out “Photographs from 2005 Los Angeles Religious Education Conference” thread **

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=42903

**The liturgical abuse continues :nope: **

If I recall correctly the RE Conference was held in Orange County so many of our Religious Ed teachers from the Diocese of Orange attended.
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Was that a national conference or was it ‘just’ Californians attending?
 
Somehow, Cardinal Mahony became an incredibly influential person within Vatican city. Supposedly, many, if not most, of the bishops of the Wastern United States were either selected by him or preferred by him.

I do not have the links, so some may assume that I am just posting conjecture.

I read that +JPII+ of eternal memory began referring to Mahony as “Hollywood”. I do know that Cardinal Mahony had no influence upon the selection of Bishop Olmstead of Phoenix, who is by all accounts a faithful and orthodox shepherd of his diocese.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
The latter are the Bishop Gumbletons.
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Funny you should mention that. He became eligible for retirement at the end of January, but his resignation has yet to be accepted.
 
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