Two wedding ceremonies

[1ke]

Maybe I am not understanding here . If a catholic marries a protestant in a protestant church without the permission of the Catholic church, and later they (or he) wants to come back to the church, they would need to get it blessed in the church.

Now, they are a little different situation because in her situation this would be a little sneaky and maybe the first example is a little more accepted, but when you get down to it, they would be doing the same thing. Getting married outside the church and then being blessed in it to make it “valid” to the Catholic.

Convalidation is not the same as having a weddding. You asked if they could have a Muslim wedding and then have a Catholic wedding. The answer to that is no.

They would have to have their marriage convalidated, in which case they would do so before a priest and two witnesses.

They accomplish nothing by “sneaking” because they would be barring themselves from having a Catholic wedding ceremony. And, additionally, the Catholic would be committing a mortal sin. Not a great idea. Lastly, such a premeditated plan could create doubt about consent and intent.

 

[1ke]

Are you sure of this? It really doesn’t make sense to me. If they have agreed to raise the children Catholic, it doesnt’ matter what his Muslim ceremony says (now he can put up a fight about it later but that doesn’t mean the children would be raised muslim because of the ceremony - it would be because of his personal objection to raising them Catholic.

What doesn’t make sense to me is this though - I don’t buy what religion the father is the children are. So, if a woman (stupidly) has a one-night stand with a muslim (talking about the act that is stupid and immoral not his religion). She doesn’t know he’s a muslim and has a child (say for argument’s sake he doesn’t about the kid). She returns to the church and has her son/daughter baptized and raised Catholic. One day the father comes around knowing now he has a child/teen/whatever, are you really saying the kid is a muslim, not a catholic, and the father has a right to claim this? I think not.

According to Islamic Law, yes the child is Muslim. If they ever visit or live in a Muslim country-- it matters. This is not just some abstract idea to Muslims. It is their law.

 

[ecp007]

And I’d be REALLY careful for another reason: I have a life-long Muslima friend, who’s mother basically ‘automatically converted to Islam’ by marrying the traditional Muslim-way…there is a part of the ceremony where the non-Muslim party basically ‘becomes part of’ Islam and that means raising any children Muslim. Also, one is Muslim because the FATHER is Muslim, so your children, even baptised Catholics (if that ever happens) will be considered Muslims, by virtue of their father.
Anna x

I am living in a very moderate muslim country, with freedom of religion, many Catholic churces, etc… And I can verify that this is absolutely the truth. No non-muslim can marry a muslim. So the wedding “automatically converts the non-Muslim” so that the wedding can be valid.

I can’t tell you the number of people I have met and read about in the paper whose property rights, inheritence, and even the manner of burial were affected because they married a Muslim.

And, you might think that you live in the US, and non of this matters, but I can promise you, I never thought I would be living in a Muslim country either.

I agree with an earlier poster…if he won’t agree to only a Catholic wedding, there is no way he will agree to raising his kids Catholic. Muslims believe that the faith and religious actions of the entire family rest solely on the shoulders of the Muslim husband. If the wife or children are not faithful to Allah, then the Muslim man believes he will go to hell.

 

[SoUnhappy80]

Just for the record - In no way whatsover is this plan a good idea.

The technical term for “getting a marriage blessed” in the Catholic Church is convalidation. My previous answer to your question was based on my assumption that the plan to violate church law involved lying to the Catholic priest, so that he would not know about the prior Muslim ceremony and so would not fill out the paperwork for a convalidation.

If instead the plan involved informing the Catholic priest about the prior Muslim ceremony, and waiting the one year period after that ceremony required by many dioceses, then the sinfulness of the plan would be the main deterrent.

Thanks. Just for the record I am not endorsing the idea , just was confused on it.

 

[SoUnhappy80]

According to Islamic Law, yes the child is Muslim. If they ever visit or live in a Muslim country-- it matters. This is not just some abstract idea to Muslims. It is their law.

Thanks for the info. I guess it wouldn’t matter to me what a muslim country says on it. If I baptize my child Catholic, I don’t care which muslims think my child would be (but I don’t know since it doesn’t really apply to me since my Dh is not muslim ). To me, muslim is a religion (not a race) and not a “right” - it’s a choice. JMO. Muslim law does not trump Catholic law (which states if the child is baptized Catholic, he/she IS Catholic).

A muslim can think this all they want, we don’t have to agree with them. It’s not the law here - that’s what I was trying to say I guess. So, if someone said that about a child born to a muslim man (that is living here and baptized as a Christian), I would say go ahead and think they are muslim - they really aren’t (well, here in the U.S. anywhere), and if they are confirmed of their own choice in the church, then i would think they are not muslim, no matter where they live (at least that would be my view) - even if muslim wouldn’t agree on it.

1ke, if my example happened in your church say a confirmed teen (or one in the middle of confirmation) tells you he learned his father was a muslim, but he was baptized catholic, would you really tell him, well then you are a muslim?

 

[SoUnhappy80]

I am living in a very moderate muslim country, with freedom of religion, many Catholic churces, etc… And I can verify that this is absolutely the truth. No non-muslim can marry a muslim. So the wedding “automatically converts the non-Muslim” so that the wedding can be valid.

I can’t tell you the number of people I have met and read about in the paper whose property rights, inheritence, and even the manner of burial were affected because they married a Muslim.

And, you might think that you live in the US, and non of this matters, but I can promise you, I never thought I would be living in a Muslim country either.

I agree with an earlier poster…if he won’t agree to only a Catholic wedding, there is no way he will agree to raising his kids Catholic. Muslims believe that the faith and religious actions of the entire family rest solely on the shoulders of the Muslim husband. If the wife or children are not faithful to Allah, then the Muslim man believes he will go to hell.

Well, we haven’t really heard from the first poster. Is this guy a strict muslim I wonder, or is he the “I don’t really care about my religion” kind of guy? That makes a difference on whether he would want to try to make her muslim or the kids muslim. I know you said this matters in a muslim country, but you are right - I don’t care about it here b/c that’s not how it is here in U.S. If poster’s husband wants to move her overseas to his muslim country, I would be very suspicious if I were her (not saying anything about you - you didn’t say if you were married to a catholic or muslim - I am not asking, just mentioning ).

But I am sticking to what I said earlier, even if he is the “I don’t really care” kind of guy - when kids are thrown in, it’s a whole different ballgame. I guareantee all of a sudden his religion will become important.

 

[Asillia]

Actually, ‘muslim’ is a person who practices the religion of Islam

But yeah, I agree - regardless of what their law might say, I don’t think God would agree.

 

[ecp007]

… If poster’s husband wants to move her overseas to his muslim country, I would be very suspicious if I were her (not saying anything about you - you didn’t say if you were married to a catholic or muslim - I am not asking, just mentioning ).

But I am sticking to what I said earlier, even if he is the “I don’t really care” kind of guy - when kids are thrown in, it’s a whole different ballgame. I guareantee all of a sudden his religion will become important.

Both my husband and I are Catholics, born and raised in the good ol’ USA. We both have great jobs with a Fortune 500 company and are on a 2 year assignment overseas.

I love it here. I have met many wonderful people who are Muslim. I also have Muslim friends in the US. I don’t have anything against them, they are very faithful, and honestly challenge me to live my faith as purposefully and committedly as they do.

Having said all that, they look at things differently than we do. The husband is central and up on the hierarchy. The children in the marriage “belong” to the husband, and even after a divorce, the husband takes the children, not the wife.

There have been many documented cases of Muslim men marrying American wives, promising all kinds of things, and when things don’t go as planned, they have fled the US with the kids. I know nothing about the poster or their fiance, and I don’t mean to imply that this would happen in her case.

However, I contend that how the fiancee responds to having a Catholic only wedding will speak volumes as to how he will behave in a whole slew of other situations throughout their married life.

 

[BamaRider]

The original post was this-

I’m Catholic and my fiancé is Muslim. We are planning a Catholic wedding ceremony. In addition, we are considering having a Muslim ceremony following the Catholic ceremony on the same day. Is this against Church doctrine?

M’am, I posted earlier to really think about this. Let me add do alot of praying, but you might not like the answer you will get.

 

[1ke]

Thanks for the info. I guess it wouldn’t matter to me what a muslim country says on it. If I baptize my child Catholic, I don’t care which muslims think my child would be (but I don’t know since it doesn’t really apply to me since my Dh is not muslim ). To me, muslim is a religion (not a race) and not a “right” - it’s a choice. JMO. Muslim law does not trump Catholic law (which states if the child is baptized Catholic, he/she IS Catholic).

Of course that is the way you view it. Our point is that it’s not the way a Muslim view it. And, remember that Muslim law is not merely ecclesial law, it also has the force of civil law in most countries that are majority Islamic (except Egypt and Turkey where they maintain secular law by military force). So, if you married a Muslim from Saudi Arabia and travelled to Saudi Arabia with a child born of your union-- Saudi Arabia would consider that child Muslim and YOU would have no say about it including your ability to remove the child from Saudi Arabia. Period.

A muslim can think this all they want, we don’t have to agree with them. It’s not the law here - that’s what I was trying to say I guess.

But it is the law elsewhere, and many non-Muslim women have had their children taken never to be seen again because it IS the law in those countries.

1ke, if my example happened in your church say a confirmed teen (or one in the middle of confirmation) tells you he learned his father was a muslim, but he was baptized catholic, would you really tell him, well then you are a muslim?

It doesn’t matter what I think.

 

[1ke]

Well, we haven’t really heard from the first poster. Is this guy a strict muslim I wonder, or is he the “I don’t really care about my religion” kind of guy? That makes a difference on whether he would want to try to make her muslim or the kids muslim. I know you said this matters in a muslim country, but you are right - I don’t care about it here b/c that’s not how it is here in U.S. If poster’s husband wants to move her overseas to his muslim country, I would be very suspicious if I were her (not saying anything about you - you didn’t say if you were married to a catholic or muslim - I am not asking, just mentioning ).

But I am sticking to what I said earlier, even if he is the “I don’t really care” kind of guy - when kids are thrown in, it’s a whole different ballgame. I guareantee all of a sudden his religion will become important.

Read up on what happened to Betty Mahmoody-- also married to a “secular” and “progressive” Muslim in the US. They went for a VISIT, not to live in a Muslim country. It all changed once they were outside of US jurisdiction.

 

[SoUnhappy80]

Of course that is the way you view it. Our point is that it’s not the way a Muslim view it. And, remember that Muslim law is not merely ecclesial law, it also has the force of civil law in most countries that are majority Islamic (except Egypt and Turkey where they maintain secular law by military force). So, if you married a Muslim from Saudi Arabia and travelled to Saudi Arabia with a child born of your union-- Saudi Arabia would consider that child Muslim and YOU would have no say about it including your ability to remove the child from Saudi Arabia. Period.

Yes, that is why I said if her potential spouse says there is the potential to visit or move to that area for a period of time, be wary.

But it is the law elsewhere, and many non-Muslim women have had their children taken never to be seen again because it IS the law in those countries.

this is nost just from Muslim countries though. India, while it has some muslims (not the majority though), does not recognize a treaty either than most of the other countries of the world have signed stating that they will honor custody decisions from other countries. A man or woman, can, and has, run there with their children. People flee to Eurpean countries and south American countries. That is a risk people take when they mary someone not American or from their own country (actually it’s a risk for them too - some take their kids and flee to a foreign country even if they are born in another). That is why I say be carefull as his religion will become important to him again, especially when there are kids involved.

It doesn’t matter what I think.

I was just curious about what you would say - no problem

 

[SoUnhappy80]

Read up on what happened to Betty Mahmoody-- also married to a “secular” and “progressive” Muslim in the US. They went for a VISIT, not to live in a Muslim country. It all changed once they were outside of US jurisdiction.

I have read it. My message is still the same- be carefull, but she knows him. We do not. Be carefull, but just because he’s muslim does not mean he’s trying to trick her into a muslim marriage and then running off with their 5 kids.

Not everyone from a country is the same as everyone else there. I mean, we don’t even know if he’s from a muslim country - he may have been born and raised here - third generation even. I can see why people think this though - I mean, every other country believes we are all crazy and sexed-up and drugged up. Just don’t be nieve is my message - but only she can make the decision.

From what she has said, her fiancee has agreed to raise the children Catholic and the problem is not him, it’s his parents -and it’s not like they are demanding a muslim marriage - they want something that “reflects” how he was raised - pretty reasonable.

Can they get married in the catholic church with a muslim minister (? is that right term?) present as well and then a reception embracing both? That way the message is I respect how you were raised, but this is a Catholic wedding.

 

[anna1978]

Are you sure of this? It really doesn’t make sense to me. If they have agreed to raise the children Catholic, it doesnt’ matter what his Muslim ceremony says (now he can put up a fight about it later but that doesn’t mean the children would be raised muslim because of the ceremony - it would be because of his personal objection to raising them Catholic.

What doesn’t make sense to me is this though - I don’t buy what religion the father is the children are. So, if a woman (stupidly) has a one-night stand with a muslim (talking about the act that is stupid and immoral not his religion). She doesn’t know he’s a muslim and has a child (say for argument’s sake he doesn’t about the kid). She returns to the church and has her son/daughter baptized and raised Catholic. One day the father comes around knowing now he has a child/teen/whatever, are you really saying the kid is a muslim, not a catholic, and the father has a right to claim this? I think not.

In Judaism, you are Jewish by virtue of your MOTHER being Jewish (so, my grandmother still considered my mom Jewish, although she converted to Catholicism-after all she was born of a Jewish mother!), in the same vein Islam believes that if you are the child of a Muslim father, you are a Muslim. No matter what religion you are later baptised in, under Islam you’ll ALWAYS be a Muslim, and this has implications! It means that if you marry a man who is a Muslim, the children wil-in Islam- be recognised as Muslims, and as the Muslim he would get full custody in case of a divorce (as Muslims cannot be raised outside of the faith). This is something many women only realise AFTER a relationship goes wrong and the Muslim father takes the children to a country that recognises his right to raise his children in IUslam and have full custody!

For my husband’s uncle, because his WIFE was the Muslima, this was not a problem…but he had everything sorted out and verified before they got married. Most young women are too easily swayed by their fiances and DON’T ask all the relevant questions!

 

[anna1978]

BTW, I don’t know if things have changed, but when my husband’s uncle married his Muslima wife in 1987, they could only get permission to marry in a Catholic ceremony and as she was a ‘non-Christian’ there was no nuptual Mass, just a simple wedding ceremony held in a local Catholic church. Her family, too, was in favour of getting a Mufti (spiritual leader) involved, but they were told this would not be permissible under Catholic Canon Law. In the end, her family did not fly from Brunei to attend the wedding, and their 2 sons were baptised with only the British side of the family in attendence. Twenty years on (almost 21) though, they are a happily married couple, devoted to eachother and they are proof that these differences CAN be overcome:thumbsup: .

 

[gracief]

Thank you for your posts. After much discussion, we agreed to have a very small ceremony in the Catholic Church.

I know it is not permissible to have another religious ceremony, but would it be OK to have a civil ceremony after the Catholic ceremony? This would be for “show”, since we would already be married. However, I think it would be nice for everyone in attendance at the reception to witness a ceremony.

 

[kage_ar]

Thank you for your posts. After much discussion, we agreed to have a very small ceremony in the Catholic Church.

I know it is not permissible to have another religious ceremony, but would it be OK to have a civil ceremony after the Catholic ceremony? This would be for “show”, since we would already be married. However, I think it would be nice for everyone in attendance at the reception to witness a ceremony.

Why can the people who attend the reception attend the wedding in the Church?

And to answer your question, if you are in the United States, no you cannot have two ceremonies - civil, religious or secular. One wedding only, per the Canon Law citations that you have seen above.

 

[gracief]

The ceremony at the church will be on a different day than the reception.

“§3. It is forbidden to have another religious celebration of the same marriage to give or renew matrimonial consent before or after the canonical celebration according to the norm of §1. Likewise, there is not to be a religious celebration in which the Catholic who is assisting and a non-Catholic minister together, using their own rites, ask for the consent of the parties.”

The Canon Law citation was in regards to a second religious celebration. The ceremony at the reception would not be a religious ceremony. Are you saying this citation also refers to non-religious celebrations?

 

[kage_ar]

Your Bishops office would be the best place to go to determine what can be done.

As I understand it, there can be one wedding ceremony here in the US (in other countries, the rules are different).

 

[kage_ar]

The bigger question, why is the Catholic wedding not enough?