Tyndale, The Protestant Faith

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My contention was that #2 was impossible as the plain reading of scripture validates Catholicism only.

If you are a believer of Jesus’s words.

Jesus recommended celibacy for the kingdom, primarily the Catholic Church allows people to make a promise to God to remain celibate in imitation of Jesus.

Jesus specifically says this is my Body, which Catholics literally understand Him to say. John 6 reinforces this.

Jesus elevates Marriage to never be dissolved, this is exactly what Catholics believe.

Jesus gives us specific words to pray to our Heavenly Father, Catholics imitate Him exactly, even repeating the prayer as He repeated prayers in the garden.

Jesus specifically states that in order to follow Him we must renounce things of this world. Thousands of Catholics take vows of poverty and service to others in obedience.

I could go on, but clearly #2 is invalid. Now of course ignorant and unstable people can misunderstand Scripture and it is never of ones own personal interpretation,(2 Peter 1:20). This clearly enforces #1 and is the understanding of the Church.
Truth matters and should be guarded and upheld.

And we must be careful here, it is not a problem at all for laypeople to read the Bible, it has always been made available to read, on the other hand to interpret and think that you are an authority. That is the problem, that the Church guards.

In Christ
Scylla

Reading was never a problem, making your own personal interpretation, that is what the Church was against, it sounds similar but is very different.
 
On the contrary, the article you cited proves it to be hooey. They were not worried about the laity misunderstanding the Scriptures. They were worried about the laity being deceived into believing that something was Scripture when it wasn’t.
How do you figure?

“In 1199 the pope replied that in general the desire to read the Scriptures was praiseworthy, but that the practice was dangerous for the simple and unlearned….According to the third rule, the Old Testament may be read in the vernacular by pious and learned men…The fourth rule places in the hands of the bishop or the inquisitor the power of allowing the reading of the New Testament in the vernacular to laymen who according to the judgment of their confessor or their pastor can profit by this practice….”
newadvent.org/cathen/13635b.htm

And why does the Church want to limit Scripture reading to “pious and learned” men and thinks it “dangerous for the simple and unlearned”? What is the danger for simple and unlearned men that pious and learned men might avoid? What is learning and a pious nature good for? To correctly interpret the Scriptures. The thrust of this article (and the others if you looked at them) was that the Church didn’t trust the common man to get it right.
 
On the contrary, the article you cited proves it to be hooey. They were not worried about the laity misunderstanding the Scriptures. They were worried about the laity being deceived into believing that something was Scripture when it wasn’t.
I think they were concerned about lies being taught as truth, and misunderstandings, don’t you?

God Bless
Scylla
 
My contention was that #2 was impossible as the plain reading of scripture validates Catholicism only.

If you are a believer of Jesus’s words.

Jesus recommended celibacy for the kingdom, primarily the Catholic Church allows people to make a promise to God to remain celibate in imitation of Jesus.

Jesus specifically says this is my Body, which Catholics literally understand Him to say. John 6 reinforces this.

Jesus elevates Marriage to never be dissolved, this is exactly what Catholics believe.

Jesus gives us specific words to pray to our Heavenly Father, Catholics imitate Him exactly, even repeating the prayer as He repeated prayers in the garden.

Jesus specifically states that in order to follow Him we must renounce things of this world. Thousands of Catholics take vows of poverty and service to others in obedience.

I could go on, but clearly #2 is invalid. Now of course ignorant and unstable people can misunderstand Scripture and it is never of ones own personal interpretation,(2 Peter 1:20). This clearly enforces #1 and is the understanding of the Church.
Truth matters and should be guarded and upheld.

And we must be careful here, it is not a problem at all for laypeople to read the Bible, it has always been made available to read, on the other hand to interpret and think that you are an authority. That is the problem, that the Church guards.

In Christ
Scylla

Reading was never a problem, making your own personal interpretation, that is what the Church was against, it sounds similar but is very different.
I understood what you are saying. Certainly you do not think that Protestants believe that “the plain reading of scripture validates Catholicism only”? Not that I would expect you to agree, but a plain reading of Scripture usually (if not always) validates the Protestant position (sola scriptura, you know). With respect to the controversial issues, the Catholic position usually relies on non-Scriptural authority, such as the teaching authority of the Magisterium. Why do you think that the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary were infallibly defined by the Pope? Because, whether true or not, they could not be proven by a plain reading of Scripture. The infallable definition ended the debate…for believing Catholics.
 
…a plain reading of Scripture usually (if not always) validates the Protestant position (sola scriptura, you know).
but a plain reading of scripture contradicts sola scriptura.

“hold fast to the traditions you have received from us, whether by word of mouth or by letter.” 1 thessalonians 2:15.
 
but a plain reading of scripture contradicts sola scriptura.

“hold fast to the traditions you have received from us, whether by word of mouth or by letter.” 1 thessalonians 2:15.
Nice point. The traditions referenced here are those consistent with Scripture (i.e., the letter sent by the apostle). The challenge, of course, is making sure that the traditions still held by the Church continue to be consistent with Scripture. This is important for reasons also explained in Scripture.

Mathew 15:
"3Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’** 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’ 6he is not to ‘honor his father[c]’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.”

Mark 7:
“13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

Colossians 2:
“8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.”

We are going to disagree, I’m afraid, as to whether many Catholic traditions are true to the teachings of the apostles per Thessalonians or, instead, are of the nature condemned in Mathew, Mark and Colossians.**
 
also, you’ve made a number of points, some of which are valid, in my view, but not this:
The truth is that the Catholic Church did not want lay persons to be able to read the bible.
i see that as a gross exaggeration, and really quite tendentious. it’s also objectively false.

as detailed in “the bible in the church” article you linked to, there were many vernacular translations prior to the reformation, in many different languages (16 in german alone, prior to luther’s).

this fact alone flatly disproves your contention.

indeed, as scylla points out, the truth about the church’s attitude is that it was much like the apostle peter’s, who noted that paul’s “letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction” (2 peter 3:16).

indeed, i find no substantive difference between peter’s remark and the comment of the pope you rest so much weight on:

“In 1199 the pope replied that in general the desire to read the Scriptures was praiseworthy, but that the practice was dangerous for the simple and unlearned….”

all that being said, i think it’s fair to say, as well, that the church did not have the kind of laissez-faire attitude towards the distribution of the scriptures that you would consider ideal. fair enough.
Nice point. The traditions referenced here are those consistent with Scripture (i.e., the letter sent by the apostle). The challenge, of course, is making sure that the traditions still held by the Church continue to be consistent with Scripture…
yes, that is a challenge, but an even greater challenge, i daresay, would be holding to a position of sola scriptura when that “tradition” is flatly contradicted by scripture. 😃
 
“In 1199 the pope replied that in general the desire to read the Scriptures was praiseworthy, but that the practice was dangerous for the simple and unlearned….According to the third rule, the Old Testament may be read in the vernacular by pious and learned men…The fourth rule places in the hands of the bishop or the inquisitor the power of allowing the reading of the New Testament in the vernacular to laymen who according to the judgment of their confessor or their pastor can profit by this practice….”
newadvent.org/cathen/13635b.htm
Seems in keeping with something another Pope wrote:
2 Peter 3:15 - 16:
And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,
16
speaking of these things 12 as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.
 
And why does the Church want to limit Scripture reading to “pious and learned” men and thinks it “dangerous for the simple and unlearned”? What is the danger for simple and unlearned men that pious and learned men might avoid? What is learning and a pious nature good for?
To critically determine whether what is being passed off as Scripture actually captures its theological intent. Otherwise, the simple and unlearned might have no idea whether what is being passed off as Scripture is filled with erroneous innovations. The simple and unlearned are at the mercy of the translator. Note that as more translations have become more commonly available and standardized and ordinary people are more easily able to verify whether translations are or are not reliable, the restriction was lifted.
 
…the truth about the church’s attitude is that it was much like the apostle peter’s, who noted that paul’s “letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction” (2 peter 3:16)
Yes, but Peter didn’t discourage the simple and unlearned (which were most of the early Christians) from reading Paul’s letters, did he?
 
To critically determine whether what is being passed off as Scripture actually captures its theological intent. Otherwise, the simple and unlearned might have no idea whether what is being passed off as Scripture is filled with erroneous innovations. The simple and unlearned are at the mercy of the translator. Note that as more translations have become more commonly available and standardized and ordinary people are more easily able to verify whether translations are or are not reliable, the restriction was lifted.
Maybe. Or maybe the Church learned that it cannot control interpretation in a free society when anyone can read the Scriptures for themselves and see for themselves what they say.
 
Maybe. Or maybe the Church learned that it cannot control interpretation in a free society when anyone can read the Scriptures for themselves and see for themselves what they say.
If by “maybe,” you mean in one’s imagination, then I suppose anything might have happened. Anyone with more than a superficial grasp of church history would simply point out that there had been a great deal of freedom and wide dissemination of ideas in Christian society for centuries, so it’s not actually possible, but you can make up anything you want, I guess. It’s your conspiracy theory. 👍

“Yeah, the Church was totally suppressing ideas, man, but the Protestants like totally forced them to stop it; they were like ‘Man, get your laws off my BIBLE!’ They were so cool, and once the Bible was out there for the people, everybody realized that the Catholics were just covering up the truth because they didn’t want to lose their power. And George W. Bush totally blew up the World Trade Center, too. There’s this guy at BYU that proved it, but they are totally trying to suppress his ideas. That’s why he got fired from BYU…”

The completely crazy things that some people believe just baffle me. I mean, the whole Protestant “rescue” of the Bible is just plain nuts, totally off the hook, and there are still people who believe it. It’s like the Jack Chick thread: what is it about insane conspiracy theories that are so attractive?
 
If by “maybe,” you mean in one’s imagination, then I suppose anything might have happened. Anyone with more than a superficial grasp of church history would simply point out that there had been a great deal of freedom and wide dissemination of ideas in Christian society for centuries, so it’s not actually possible, but you can make up anything you want, I guess. It’s your conspiracy theory. 👍

“Yeah, the Church was totally suppressing ideas, man, but the Protestants like totally forced them to stop it; they were like ‘Man, get your laws off my BIBLE!’ They were so cool, and once the Bible was out there for the people, everybody realized that the Catholics were just covering up the truth because they didn’t want to lose their power. And George W. Bush totally blew up the World Trade Center, too. There’s this guy at BYU that proved it, but they are totally trying to suppress his ideas. That’s why he got fired from BYU…”

The completely crazy things that some people believe just baffle me. I mean, the whole Protestant “rescue” of the Bible is just plain nuts, totally off the hook, and there are still people who believe it. It’s like the Jack Chick thread: what is it about insane conspiracy theories that are so attractive?
Sorry, sarcasm doesn’t become you I’m afraid.

The Catholic Church has had 2000 years of history and, while much of that history is admirable, much of it is not pretty. Read the sources which I posted for yourself. The picture is not as black and white as you suggest. Moreover, two of the three sites are Catholic even…I haven’t gone to fanatical Protestant conspiracy sources to support what I’ve posted.
 
Yes, but Peter didn’t discourage the simple and unlearned (which were most of the early Christians) from reading Paul’s letters, did he?
but given peter’s rather pointed statement about “the unstable and the ignorant” misunderstanding the scriptures, might he have engaged in a prudent, limited discouragement of such reading, for the good of the flock, in a different time and place, and under different circumstances?

as a good shepherd, and to prevent “their own destruction,” i think he very well might have!

(just as, for example, the acts 15 council imposed prudential restrictions on the behavior of Christians for the larger good of the church because the exigencies of a particular historical moment - Jewish and gentile converts coming together in mixed communities - required it.)
 
Sorry, sarcasm doesn’t become you I’m afraid.

The Catholic Church has had 2000 years of history and, while much of that history is admirable, much of it is not pretty. Read the sources which I posted for yourself. The picture is not as black and white as you suggest. Moreover, two of the three sites are Catholic even…I haven’t gone to fanatical Protestant conspiracy sources to support what I’ve posted.
Of course it is black and white, it is just that you are looking at human failings, which is common especially over 2000 years.

So what if Catholics sin, that has nothing to do with truth. Truth is what is important and available if we are open to God to submit to it. The Catholic Church is there to protect truth, and at times people in the Church have made some bad decisions regarding handling of other people but that doesn’t change the truth of Jesus.

It is black and white if truth matters and Catholics have to believe that truth is really what the Church is for, to protect it.

Feel free to PM me, Catholicism is beautiful inside, we love Jesus and rejoice in our love of the Lord. It looks a lot different from the inside than from the outside.
So even though Satan will distort truth, it always is available if we reject Satan and look to God.

God Bless
Scylla

Now I should ask you, is it possible to reject sin by the Grace of God? Is this possible all your life, by the Grace of God.
If you are blessed by God and full of His Grace.
We can do nothing on our own, but with God all things are possible.
 
People … a bit too many personal attacks…

I remember a while ago now, I looked into the matter of whether or not the CC forbade people to read the Bible…my finding…NO

At certain times and in certain locations people were forbiden to individually read the Bible (e.g. Albagensians ; hope I spelt that right) … however this was as some people were leading others into heretical beliefs.

At other times the CC forbade the ownership of certain Bible translations because they contained errors and were not approved translations of the Church.

As for the claim that Wicliff had the first english Bible or the like … FALSE
However back in the 1500 you had to be very well of to
  1. Have an education
  2. Own a Bible or merely part
    Latin was the language of the educated as such any one who wanted a Bible would want it in Latin. It would be like wanting a German car instead of a Korean one…nothing wrong with quality if you can afford it…and being that you already had $$$ well the choice was simple.
At any rate the simple and unlearned cannot by their very limitations come to the truth by their own. Therefore the necessity for a visible Church that can instruct and communicate the Good News to them as passed on by the Apostles.

Also regarding
Or maybe the Church learned that it cannot control interpretation in a free society
Or maybe the Church was trying to preserve divine truth rather than allow for human interpretations to destroy/mutate the Gospel…history shows what happened as soon as “free society” decided they would be their own church…total CHAOS…even Luther recognised this and was dissapointed as to how many doctrines and teachings were thrown out the window.
 
From rr1213: Nice point. The traditions referenced here are those consistent with Scripture (i.e., the letter sent by the apostle). The challenge, of course, is making sure that the traditions still held by the Church continue to be consistent with Scripture. This is important for reasons also explained in Scripture.
This is a good point. The Church teaches that all of Tradition is consistent with Scripture. God can’t lie. Any contradition of interpretation requires an examination of one interpretation or the other until they are consistent. But your quotes below are totally irrelevant. You have to address a particular Tradition and present an argument that a Tradition conflicts w/ Scripture. The following Scripture quotes not only don’t present such an argument but also show a willingness to use Scripture out of context to prove your personal agenda. Let’s address them one by one:
Quote selected by rr1213: Mathew 15:
"3Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’** 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’ 6he is not to ‘honor his father[c]’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.”** He is talking about how the Pharisees did not honor their parents and justified it because they were doing God’s work in their life. You only selected this quote because it uses the word “tradtion”. Very intellectually dishonest and is compounded by your willingness to distort Scripture for your purpose.
Quote selected by rr1213: Mark 7:“13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
See above. This is just the same lesson in another Gospel.
Quote selected by rr1213: Colossians 2:“8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.”
This is hilarious that you’d use this to characterize Church Tradition. He is talking about secular tradition. Everything that the Church holds in Tradition are actions that are to turn our eyes away from this world and to God. You may not like these Traditions for your own personal agenda but your use of this verse is a gross and blatant attempt to turn Scripture to say something that it clearly doesn’t.

We are going to disagree, I’m afraid, as to whether many Catholic traditions are true to the teachings of the apostles per Thessalonians or, instead, are of the nature condemned in Mathew, Mark and Colossians.

We may or may not. You have not made a case that the Tradition of the Church are anything of the like condemned by Mathew, Mark and Colossians. But it is clear that you purposely distorted Scripture for your personal agenda.

Your bigoted attitude is belied by your continual pounding on that idea that the Church denied access to the Scripture because they didn’t want them to understand the Word of God. You fail to acknowledge that nearly all of Christendom was illiterate, few were educated at a level at even a high school level, there was no printing press so any books were extremely expensive and only in the hands of the wealthy, that there were many false teachers promoting false texts as Scriptures for their own agenda, and many other reasons. You take a prejudiced view of the facts of the day, apply a standard that is appropriate in today’s world with massive educated people and technology, and then use it to justify a lie.

God doesn’t use a lie to prove a truth and neither do his disciples.

We were warned by Paul about such people who would blatantly distort the Bible so: 2Cor:11- "For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, who masquerade as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light. So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. "
 
His problem was translating the bible into the vernacular at a time that the Catholic Church desired only for the latin Vulgate to be used.
OK. To once and for all put silence to this nonsense, I bring forth the following quotes from the book by Henry Graham, “Where We Got the Bible”. For an expanded version of this, go here. If you, rr1213, have quotes to the contrary, bring them forth, and discuss. Otherwise, desist from your slander.

“We know from history that there were popular translations of the bible and Gospels in Spanish, Italian, French, Danish, Norwegian, Polish, Bohemian, and Hungarian for the Catholics of those lands before the days of printing, but we shall confine ourselves to England to refute once more the common fallacy that John Wycliff was the first to place an English translation of the Scriptures in the hands of the English people in 1382…

We may safely assert, and we can prove, that there were actually in existence among the people many copies of the Scriptures in the English tongue of that day. To begin far back, we have a copy of the work of Caedmon, a monk of Whitby, at the end of the 7th century, consisting of great portions of the bible in the common tongue.

In the next century we have the well-known translations of Venerable Bede, a monk of Jarrow, who died while busy with the Gospel of John. In the same (8th) century, we have the copies of Eadhelm, Bishop of Sherborne; of Guthlac, a hermit near Peterborough; and of Egbert, Bishop of Holy Island; these were all in Saxon, the language understood and spoken by the Christians of that time. Coming down a little later, we have the free translations of King Alfred the Great, who was working at the psalms when he died, and of Aelfric, Archbishop of Canterbury, as well as popular renderings of Holy Scripture like the Book of Durham and the Rushworth Gloss and others that have survived the wreck of ages.

After the Norman conquest of 1066, Anglo-Norman or Middle English became the language of England, and consequently the next translations of the Bible we meet are in that tongue. There are several specimens still known, such as the Paraphrase of Orm (about 1150) and the Salue Animae (1250), the translation of William Shoreham and Richard Rolle, hermit of Hampole (died 1349). I say merely “specimens”, for those that have come down to us are merely indications of a much greater number that once existed, but afterwards perished.

We have proof of this in the word of Thomas More, Lord Chancellor of England under Henry VIII, who says, “The whole Bible long before Wycliff’s day was by virtuous and well-learned men translated into the English tongue, and by good and godly people with devotion and soberness well and reverently read” (Dialogues III). Again, “The clergy keep no Bibles from the laity but such translations as be either not yet approved for good, or such as be already reproved for naught, as Wycliff’s was. For, as for old ones that were before Wycliff’s days, they remain lawful and be in some folk’s hand. I myself have seen, and can show you, Bibles, fair and old, which have been known and seen by the bishop of the diocese, and left in laymen’s hands and women’s too, such as he knew for good and Catholic folk, that used them with soberness and devotion.”

But it will be said, that is the witness of a Roman Catholic. Well, I shall advance Protestant testimony also.

The translators of the Authorized Version, in their preface, referring to previous translations of the Scriptures into the language of the people, make the following important statements. After speaking of the Greek and Latin versions, they proceed, “The godly-learned were not content to have the Scriptures in the language which themselves understood, Greek and Latin…but also for the behoof and the edifying of the unlearned which hungered and thirsted after righteousness, and had souls to be saved as well as they, they provided translations into the Vulgar for their countrymen, insomuch that most nations under heaven did shortly after their conversion hear Christ speaking unto them in their mother tongue, not by the voice of their minister only but also by the written word translated.”

As all these nations were certainly converted by the Catholic Church, for there was then no other to send missionaries to convert anybody, this is really a valuable admission. The translators of 1611, then, after enumerating many converted nations that had the vernacular Scriptures, come to the case of England and include it among the others. “Much about that time” (1360), they say, “even in our King Richard the Second’s days, John Trevisa translated them into English, and many English Bibles in written hand are yet to be seen that divers translated, as it is very probable, in that age…So that, to have the Scriptures in the mother tongue is not a quaint conceit lately taken up, either by the Lord Cromwell in England [or others]…but hath been thought upon, and put in practice of old, even from the first times of the conversion of any nation.” This testimony from the preface (too little known) of their own Authorized Bible, ought surely to carry some weight with well disposed Protestants.

Moreover, the “Reformed” Archbishop of Canterbury, Cranmer, says, in his preface of the Bible of 1540, “The Holy Bible was translated and read in the Saxon tongue, which at that time was our mother tongue, whereof there remaineth yet divers copies found in old abbeys, of such antique manner of writing and speaking that few men now be able to read and understand them. When this language waxed old and out of common use, because folks should not lack the fruit of reading, it was again translated into the newer language, whereof yet also many copies remain and be daily found.”

Again, Foxe, a man that Protestants trust, says, “If histories be well examined, we shall find, both before the Conquest and after, as well as before John Wycliff was born as since, the whole body of Scripture by sundry men translated into our country tongue.” …

There is no need, it seems to me, to waste further time and space in accumulating proofs that the Bible was known, read, and distributed by the Catholic Church in the common language of the people in all countries from the seventh down to the fourteenth century. I have paid more attention to the case of England because of the popularity of the myth about Wycliff having been the first to translate it and to enable the poor blinded papists, for the first time in their experience, to behold the figure of the Christ of the Gospels in 1382.”
 
Orionthe Hunter,

Wow. Let’s see, I have a “personal agenda”, I’m “intellectually dishonest”, “willing to distort scripture”, my arguments are “gross” “blatant” and “hilarious”, I’m “bigoted”, I’m “prejudiced”, I’m a “liar” and, finally, not “a disciple of Christ.” Did I miss anything here? If you truly think any of those things, look at my various posts both here at Catholic Answers and at CARM. You may come to a different conclusion.

As I stated before, we are going to disagree as to whether many Catholic traditions are true to the teachings of the apostles per Thessalonians or, instead, are of the nature condemned in Mathew, Mark and Colossians. I am sorry that you are scandalized that Protestants in many cases have different interpretations of Scripture and the Church than that held by Catholics. If you believe I was trying to make a point about the veracity of a particular Catholic tradition in this thread, then you are wrong.

You all can go on and believe what you want. It’s a free country. This thread has deteriorated to the point where I’m not going to participate anymore. When it get personal like this, I see no edifying purpose in continuing the discussion.

RR1213
 
Orionthe Hunter,

Wow. Let’s see, I have a “personal agenda”, I’m “intellectually dishonest”, “willing to distort scripture”, my arguments are “gross” “blatant” and “hilarious”, I’m “bigoted”, I’m “prejudiced”, I’m a “liar” and, finally, not “a disciple of Christ.” Did I miss anything here? If you truly think any of those things, look at my various posts both here at Catholic Answers and at CARM. You may come to a different conclusion.

As I stated before, we are going to disagree as to whether many Catholic traditions are true to the teachings of the apostles per Thessalonians or, instead, are of the nature condemned in Mathew, Mark and Colossians. I am sorry that you are scandalized that Protestants in many cases have different interpretations of Scripture and the Church than that held by Catholics. If you believe I was trying to make a point about the veracity of a particular Catholic tradition in this thread, then you are wrong.

You all can go on and believe what you want. It’s a free country. This thread has deteriorated to the point where I’m not going to participate anymore. When it get personal like this, I see no edifying purpose in continuing the discussion.

RR1213
There are legitmate manners to argue. But as person who considers the Bible the Word, taking verses out of context to prove a personal agenda is anethema and one I can not take lightly. Secondly, your continual reliance on distorting the facts regarding the lack of availability of Bibles as something sinister is equally appalling. Thirdly, your assertions have the direct and clear implication that the faith of every Catholic is not of God. If you really thought you can come here and make that charge and not recieve a stern response, you should now be dissuaged of that. Finally, don’t project all the blame for the deterioration of this thread on others. Stern admonition from others to your continual misrepresenting Scripture and historical facts is a natural consequence to your posts.
 
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