U.K. Cardinal's permission for "gay mass" dismays Catholic traditionalists

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The Secular Franciscan Order is being subjected to a keynote speaker at our 5-year meeting who is an Episcopal priest whose main claim to fame (alongside his embracing of diversity) is his very vocal support of gay “marriage”. I truly resent this agenda being forced upon us, whether at mass or in keynote speeches at what is supposed to be a holy event. I think we should pray for homosexuals, treat them with love and kindness, but never, ever embrace that agenda. No, I would not go to a mass that is for homosexuals. I am not a homosexual, I do not support that lifestyle, nor will I suppose any attempts to legitimize it as a viable “alternative” lifestyle. (I suppose that’s where this keynote speaker comes in–he has a lot of “diversity” credibility.) Our entire local group of the order has voted to boycott the event rather than have it appear that we approve of this. Interestingly, it was originally scheduled for Franciscan University at Steubenville until the national board of the Secular Franciscan Order was unceremoniously told “not only no, but heck no” by Steubenville. One might think that would have caused them to examine what they were doing, but no. The political agenda rolls on. I pray it does not roll right over the church…
 
OK…stupid question here…
Why do gays need a mass separate from everyone else? I mean, as long as they want to come to mass they are welcome and as long as they are chaste they can receive our Lord in the Eucharist right? So why do they need their own mass except to call attention to themselves and make themselves feel legitimized? I don’t have a problem with homosexuals at mass, or adulterers, or thieves… as long as they don’t receive communion if they aren’t in a state of grace.
 
bear06 said:
Again, nice try. It’s highly unlikely that you’d find on of these in an area without another Mass to attend so you’re setting up a strawman argument to get us to say “Sure, Devotus, skip your Sunday obligation if you can’t get to the TLM”. You’re searching for a needle in a haystack situation to have your Sunday obligation dispensed.
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I am with ya there!
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What should a non-traditionalist Catholic response be?
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Would you attend this NO Mass with your family because … after all … a " Mass is a Mass"…?
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Yes, I would attend if I could go nowhere else. I would be asking God for forgiveness for my bad thoughts during it, and would be offering my displeasure up to God.

The sin of the priest or bishop does not invalidate the offering of the Mass.
 
bear06 said:
What does “a member the Church Teaching” mean? A bishop’s teaching is valid in so far as it is in communion with Rome.
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I think the point was; if a Bishop allows this and the Magisterium says nothing - then the Magisterium is giving the impression She approves.
 
devotus said:
bear06;1954458:
But Bear06… what If this was the only Mass … would you go?

BTW:… You make it seem that i am always trying to get out of Mass – reminds me of my teenage years… hahaha

I am with ya there!
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Devotus, you just said you’d go too with video tap in hand! If you can go, why can’t I?:rotfl:
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Adonis33 said:
I think the point was; if a Bishop allows this and the Magisterium says nothing - then the Magisterium is giving the impression She approves.
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This happened 10 days ago and I’m just hearing about it now. For all we know, the Vatican is discussing how they can appoint him to some special obscure position in the Vatican right now.😉
 
What does “a member the Church Teaching” mean?
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The Church Teaching is the Teaching apostolate of the Church:

From A Manual Of Catholic Theology, Based On Scheeben’s “Dogmatik” Joseph Wilhelm, D.D., PHD. And Thomas B. Scannell, D.D. With A Preface By Cardinal Manning Vol. 1. The Sources Of Theological Knowledge, God, Creation And The Supernatural Order Third Edition, Revised, London, Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co., Lt. New York, Cincinnati, Chicago, Benziger Bros. 1906 [Pp. 50-70]
We have already distinguished two functions of the Apostolate: (1) the authentic witnessing to the doctrine of Christ, and (2) the authoritative enforcement of it. The first element belongs to the Power of Orders, the second to the Power of Jurisdiction.
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  1. The act of witnessing to the doctrine of Christ is not in itself an act of jurisdiction, but rather, as being a communication of grace and of supernatural life, belongs to the Power of Orders. The function of this power is to transmit the Grace of Christ, especially the grace of Faith, while the Apostolate transmits the truth of Christ and provides the subject-matter of the act of Faith. The members of the Hierarchy invested with the power of communicating the gifts of Grace in general and the gift of Faith in particular, are therefore also the instruments of the Holy Ghost in communicating the doctrine of Faith. The grace which they receive in their ordination consecrates them for and entitles them to both functions, so that they are, in a twofold sense, “the dispensers of the mysteries of God.” Hence the witnesses of the Apostolate, which was instituted to produce supernatural Faith, are invested with a supernatural character, a public dignity, and a power based upon an intimate union with the Holy Ghost. They represent the testimony of the Holy Ghost promised by Christ, because they are the instruments of the Holy Ghost. They cannot, however, individually claim infallibility, as will presently be shown.
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The Teaching Body is a living organism, and consequently has the power of producing auxiliary members to assist in its work, and of conferring upon them the credentials required for their different functions. These auxiliary members may be divided into two classes: (1) auxiliaries of the Bishops, and (2) auxiliaries of the Chief Bishop. I. The ordinary auxiliaries of the Episcopate are the priests and deacons. They receive their orders and their jurisdiction from the Bishops, and hold an inferior rank in the Hierarchy. Their position as regards the office of teaching, though far below that of the Bishops, is nevertheless important. They are the official executive organs of the Bishops, their missionaries and heralds for the promulgation of doctrine. They have a special knowledge of doctrine, and they receive, by means of the sacrament of Holy Orders, a share in the teaching office of the Bishops, and in the doctrinal influence of the Holy Ghost. Hence their teaching possesses a peculiar value and dignity, which may, however, vary with their personal qualifications. Moreover the Bishops should, under certain circumstances, consult them in matters of doctrine, not, indeed, to receive direction from them, but in order to obtain information. When we remember the immense influence exercised by the uniform teaching of the clergy over the unity of Faith, we may fairly say that they participate in the infallibility of the Episcopate both extrinsically and intrinsically: extrinsically, because the universal consent of all the heralds is an external sign that they reproduce the exact message of the Holy Ghost; and intrinsically, inasmuch as by their ordination they obtain a share in the assistance of the Spirit of Truth promised to the Church. When and where necessary, the Bishops have the power of erecting Schools or Seminaries for the religious or higher theological education of a portion of their flocks. The professors in these institutions are auxiliaries of the Bishops, and are, if possible, in still closer union with the Teaching Apostolate than the clergy engaged in the ministry.
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A bishop’s teaching is valid in so far as it is in communion with Rome.
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And who determines when this teaching is and is not in “communion with Rome”? And what does “communion with Rome” mean? Does the teaching need to be in “union with Rome”…or does the teacher just need to be in “communion” with Rome.

The Bishops are not infallible by themselves…but they are the teaching authority. If what they are doing is “not in union with Rome”, then they should and must be disciplined or removed by Rome. This has largely not happened…why?
 
Why do homosexuals need their own mass? Is not the regular mass heterosexual people go to adequate?

If homosexuals are supposed to be treated like anyone else with a cross to bear, why are they singled out, for better or worse?

If they should be treated with the same dignity as everyone else then they should be treated like everyone else; a separate mass based on sexual preference, however difficult the burden may be to bear, is superfluous.

If we are trully one community there is no reason to single them out and treat them any worse or “more equal” than everyone else.

If they are to be regarded as equals and as one of us then it’s about time they were treated like it, no more, no less.
 
Ahem. I actually live in the UK (for my sins) and I know Cormac – he was my local bishop before being made Cardinal and we had private meetings during a Synod here.

He is absolutely NOT a liberal in any sense (except that he like the NO so he must be a liberal freemason by definition – of course.) He is a good man who is fighting tough battles in the UK. He has not shifted the Churches teaching in relation to the Sexual Orientation regulations which are going to close down Catholic Adoption agencies and effectively open up the hunting season for Christians.

What this is about is a PROPER Mass for homosexual LIVING the Churches teaching. In London illicit masses for homosexuals were taking place which did celebrate the homosexual life style.

Cormac condemned these Masses and, being the pastor he is (I think he’s not media friendly and not the ‘aggressive’ leader we need right now but he IS a pastor and a priest and orthodox to his core) he did not just ban, he introduced a Mass for homosexuals to attend where they could be among their own and receive sacramental grace to keep them celibate!! It was a ‘Mass of comfort’ but not ‘Mass of condoning.’ Cormac was saying, “Don’t receive the Eucharist from schismatics and heretics, come to the Church – we will make it comfortable for you to here and stay within the teaching of the Church.”

It was in the Catholic papers here last year. This was a Mass to oust ‘Masses’ that really did say “come here and celebrate your sexuality!” It’s the exact opposite of the claims here!

Bear in mind that the Church here is under HUGE pressure on the subject of homosexuality – it is THE stick used to beat the Church with here and we are being legislated against for our ‘intolerance.’ Cormac has to show we hate the sin but love the sinner – because Joe ‘All Christians are irrational bigots’ Public doesn’t see the distinction. When Cormac is attacked for being ‘homophobic’ and ‘intolerant’ he can state; “But we have a Mass for homosexuals. We support them (but don’t condone the lifestyle.)” It’s similar in my community. We have homosexuals in leadership positions in it. We support our homosexuals. But they live by the Churches teaching. When the police come for us (they will) we can at least say, “Look, we support homosexuals – we aren’t afraid of them – look at how we work with them.” It’s a quid pro quo. You stay celebate, we support you.

Of course, none of this information is going to make the slightest difference to people’s opinions but there you go.
 
Oh, and in relation to the “Why should homosexuals get special treatment” argument
  1. Other sinners were not being offered schismatic Masses (unless you count the SSPX in that.)
  2. Politically treatment of homosexuals is a huge issue here and now, effectively it is enshrined in law that a homosexual must be handled with kid gloves! So Cormac has to work with eliminating pro-homosexual marriages with the media on him. He condemns homosexual Masses but does not offer anything it’ll be all over the media in no time, more laws will be passed and Catholics arrested. People are watching him for just that!
Yes, I know, Cormac should brazenly ‘shout the truth’ and put up with countrywide persecution for the Faith. We must always be hard and never sensitive – good grief, he’ll be merciful next. Yes, I am sure the days are coming when Christians will be arrested for their faith, we’re already nearly there and when the Sexual Orientation Regulations come in homosexuals will be handed special powers to sue anyone they like so, yes it’s coming. When that day comes Cormac will not back down. He’s told the government our adoption agencies would close rather than surrender children to homosexual couples!

But, until it comes down to the explicitly government saying, “Christianity is intrinsically homophobic and it’s teaching must be controlled by the State” Cormac will not want to give the secularists what they want on a plate. He says the wrong thing in the wrong way and we’re in legal trouble. So he’s got to be sensitive!!! As it stands, Cormac is not denying the teaching of the Church implicitly or explicitly. He is, however, showing the Church is sensitive towards homosexuals who hold to celibacy.

The National Secular Society is watching him… He doesn’t want to give them an excuse to cry, “See – religion hates homosexuals! Ban it now!”
 
pnewton said:
First, I do not like to see a Mass targeted at a group like homosexuals. I can see no purpose in it except for the need to make a political statement. I can hardly imagine having a bi-weekly Mass for adultrery, theft or any other sin.

On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with welcoming them to Mass and, as long as they are celebate, receiving communion, even at a Traditionalist Church. The sin of homosexuality should be treated like any other grave sin. It should not excessively stigmatize the sinner, nor should it be treated as anything less than the grave sin it is. I like this statement:
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I agree with this post !
 
Jedinovice said:
Ahem. I actually live in the UK (for my sins) and I know Cormac – he was my local bishop before being made Cardinal and we had private meetings during a Synod here.

He is absolutely NOT a liberal in any sense (except that he like the NO so he must be a liberal freemason by definition – of course.) He is a good man who is fighting tough battles in the UK. He has not shifted the Churches teaching in relation to the Sexual Orientation regulations which are going to close down Catholic Adoption agencies and effectively open up the hunting season for Christians.

What this is about is a PROPER Mass for homosexual LIVING the Churches teaching. In London illicit masses for homosexuals were taking place which did celebrate the homosexual life style.

Cormac condemned these Masses and, being the pastor he is (I think he’s not media friendly and not the ‘aggressive’ leader we need right now but he IS a pastor and a priest and orthodox to his core) he did not just ban, he introduced a Mass for homosexuals to attend where they could be among their own and receive sacramental grace to keep them celibate!! It was a ‘Mass of comfort’ but not ‘Mass of condoning.’ Cormac was saying, “Don’t receive the Eucharist from schismatics and heretics, come to the Church – we will make it comfortable for you to here and stay within the teaching of the Church.”

It was in the Catholic papers here last year. This was a Mass to oust ‘Masses’ that really did say “come here and celebrate your sexuality!” It’s the exact opposite of the claims here!

Bear in mind that the Church here is under HUGE pressure on the subject of homosexuality – it is THE stick used to beat the Church with here and we are being legislated against for our ‘intolerance.’ Cormac has to show we hate the sin but love the sinner – because Joe ‘All Christians are irrational bigots’ Public doesn’t see the distinction. When Cormac is attacked for being ‘homophobic’ and ‘intolerant’ he can state; “But we have a Mass for homosexuals. We support them (but don’t condone the lifestyle.)” It’s similar in my community. We have homosexuals in leadership positions in it. We support our homosexuals. But they live by the Churches teaching. When the police come for us (they will) we can at least say, “Look, we support homosexuals – we aren’t afraid of them – look at how we work with them.” It’s a quid pro quo. You stay celebate, we support you.

Of course, none of this information is going to make the slightest difference to people’s opinions but there you go.
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At the end of the day he caved in to polical pressures – which did damage to the faith… We should pray for his gift of Fortitude
 
Thank you JediNovice, for your insight. What gets filtered through the media is so skewed. He may have saved a lot of souls.

We in the States don’t face the same pressures as you Catholics over the Pond do.

Pax tecum!
 
Sheeniac said:
Thank you JediNovice, for your insight. What gets filtered through the media is so skewed. He may have saved a lot of souls.

We in the States don’t face the same pressures as you Catholics over the Pond do.

Pax tecum!
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Thanks for understanding.

Context is so important on all these things.
 
Jedinovice said:
Thanks for understanding.

Context is so important on all these things.
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I think this is a classic case where conservative catholic / trad catholic just have different viewpoints.

Speaking for all Trads ( i have been appointed ya know) there is NO context that would make a “gay mass” acceptable – even if the intention is noble.

The ends never justify the means
 
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