U.K. Cardinal's permission for "gay mass" dismays Catholic traditionalists

[Jedinovice]

I think this is a classic case where conservative catholic / trad catholic just have different viewpoints.

Speaking for all Trads ( i have been appointed ya know) there is NO context that would make a “gay mass” acceptable – even if the intention is noble.

The ends never justify the means

Of course. Nothing I say will change anyone’s opinions! There’s never a problem that can’t be solved with the use of Latin and anathemas.
However, in terms of facts, Cormac has NOT ‘bowed to Gay activist pressure.’ That’s misreporting. He organised all this last year as a solution to rogue Gay Masses. Radicals had nothing to do with it except Cormac heading them off! He is NOT a liberal and will not bow to the radicals! He is, however, a pastor and trying not to pander to the charicatures of the Press here.

He has had youth Masses, Masses for the elderly, Masses for married couples… It’s not unusual here. But the media reporting is super-hostile, almost Soviet.

Cormac allows a ‘Gay Mass’ (on HIS terms) and he has bowed to the activists.
He refuses to have such then schismatics hold such Masses and Cormac and the Church are smeared as homophobes and the screw tightens in legislation.

try and have some understanding of his positon and if you can’t sympathise at least condemn him for what he is doing and not he is reported as doing. There is a LOT of misreporting going on!

 

[devotus]

Of course. Nothing I say will change anyone’s opinions! There’s never a problem that can’t be solved with the use of Latin and anathemas.!

Usually just sticking to the truth works

However, in terms of facts, Cormac has NOT ‘bowed to Gay activist pressure.’ That’s misreporting. !

Sorry… I thought that you had posted this …"Bear in mind that the Church here is under HUGE pressure on the subject of homosexuality – it is THE stick used to beat the Church with here and we are being legislated against for our ‘intolerance.’ Cormac has to show we hate the sin but love the sinner "

He organised all this last year as a solution to rogue Gay Masses. !

So he would have “pedophile mass” to counter any rouge pedophile masses?

hmm… Where does this end?

.

try and have some understanding of his positon and if you can’t sympathise at least condemn him for what he is doing and not he is reported as doing. There is a LOT of misreporting going on!

Sorry… I just do not see this as doing any good… The bad press alone has damaged the faith – He should have known better

 

[bear06]

So he would have “pedophile mass” to counter any rouge pedophile masses?

I find this whole conversation quite interesting in the light of Jedinovice’s post. First of all Devotus, homosexuality is not a sin the act is. Pedophilia is a sin and someone who is a pedophile would have committed a sin. Homosexuality is disordered and I actually forgot that if you say this in some countries you can be arrested for a hate crime.

I’d love to see, say, Fr. Groeschel saying this Mass. What an education and encouragement to live the chaste life would those people get.

Devotus, what do you think the bishop should do? or, how would you handle this situation?

 

[Sheeniac]

I find this whole conversation quite interesting in the light of Jedinovice’s post. First of all Devotus, homosexuality is not a sin the act is. Pedophilia is a sin and someone who is a pedophile would have committed a sin. Homosexuality is disordered and I actually forgot that if you say this in some countries you can be arrested for a hate crime.

I’d love to see, say, Fr. Groeschel saying this Mass. What an education and encouragement to live the chaste life would those people get.

Devotus, what do you think the bishop should do? or, how would you handle this situation?

It appears that this is an outreach to people who want to fight their SSA (or at least the committing of a sin against chastity). Best to go to where the sinners are and help them become saints, I would think!

 

[devotus]

I find this whole conversation quite interesting in the light of Jedinovice’s post. First of all Devotus, homosexuality is not a sin the act is. Pedophilia is a sin and someone who is a pedophile would have committed a sin. Homosexuality is disordered and I actually forgot that if you say this in some countries you can be arrested for a hate crime.

I’d love to see, say, Fr. Groeschel saying this Mass. What an education and encouragement to live the chaste life would those people get.

Devotus, what do you think the bishop should do? or, how would you handle this situation?

Let me tell ya how I got here….

I do not think it takes a great leap of faith to assume that anyone attending a rouge “Gay Mass” is celebrating the gay lifestyle – Do you agree?

Certainly these rouge Gay Masses are not meeting their Sunday obligation – Do you agree?

Both homosexuality and Pedophilia are (attraction to same sex and children) are Disorders ---- Do you agree?

Both homosexuality and Pedophilia – if acted upon – are mortal sins ---- Do you agree?

I see no difference in chaste homosexual and a chaste pedophile – do you agree?

So there is no difference between this bishop having a “Gay Mass” or “Pedophilia Mass”

I would have an open invite to the rouge gay mass goers to attend a meeting ( not a mass) where with charity He should explain the Churches position and let them know that continuing in promoting the gay lifestyle will put there souls in grave danger. Those continuing in their behavior would be excommunicated.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Of course. Nothing I say will change anyone’s opinions! There’s never a problem that can’t be solved with the use of Latin and anathemas.
However, in terms of facts, Cormac has NOT ‘bowed to Gay activist pressure.’ That’s misreporting. He organised all this last year as a solution to rogue Gay Masses. Radicals had nothing to do with it except Cormac heading them off! He is NOT a liberal and will not bow to the radicals! He is, however, a pastor and trying not to pander to the charicatures of the Press here.

He has had youth Masses, Masses for the elderly, Masses for married couples… It’s not unusual here. But the media reporting is super-hostile, almost Soviet.

Cormac allows a ‘Gay Mass’ (on HIS terms) and he has bowed to the activists.
He refuses to have such then schismatics hold such Masses and Cormac and the Church are smeared as homophobes and the screw tightens in legislation.

try and have some understanding of his positon and if you can’t sympathise at least condemn him for what he is doing and not he is reported as doing. There is a LOT of misreporting going on!

I’m also British.
I’m afraid that the Cardinal was appointed as a safe pair of hands, since there was no obvious successor to Cardinal Hume, and is rather out of his depth in the very charged political atmosphere that has developed in Britain today. He probably sees Masses for gays as a sort of compromise with the activists, and the situation is as you say.

He certainly means well, and there isn’t an easy answer.

 

[bear06]

I do not think it takes a great leap of faith to assume that anyone attending a rouge “Gay Mass” is celebrating the gay lifestyle – Do you agree?

Probably.

Certainly these rouge Gay Masses are not meeting their Sunday obligation – Do you agree?

Probably not.

Both homosexuality and Pedophilia are (attraction to same sex and children) are Disorders ---- Do you agree?

Yep.

Both homosexuality and Pedophilia – if acted upon – are mortal sins ---- Do you agree?

Yep.

I see no difference in chaste homosexual and a chaste pedophile – do you agree?

You are correct. My original definition of pedophelia was in error.

So there is no difference between this bishop having a “Gay Mass” or “Pedophilia Mass”

Yep. The only difference would be, according to Jedinovice, is that you aren’t threatened with a hate speech lawsuit if you say anything negative about the pedophiles (yet). If indeed Jedi’s take is accurate, who exactly would say the Masses if all of the priests are put in the poky. I’m sure, again if Jedi is correct, that this is what the bishop is weighing at this pointl.

So, sometimes persecution leads to less than optimum Mass conditions. For example, when Catholics were being persecuted in England (not now but then), should all of the priests have stood their ground in their Churches and been arrested? Were the ones who did Masses for the faithful in secret in error?

I would have an open invite to the rouge gay mass goers to attend a meeting ( not a mass) where with charity He should explain the Churches position and let them know that continuing in promoting the gay lifestyle will put there souls in grave danger. Those continuing in their behavior would be excommunicated.

It sounds like the bishop has expressed the Church teachings on this issue. In fact, he has taken a pretty firm stance if you’ve read some press reports. Excommunicated? On what grounds? While it sounded obvious in the beginning, I have some questions on this situation. Is the bishop working with the celibate homosexuals to get more people back? etc.? Which homosexuals asked for this Mass and what was their reasoning? etc.?If this was a “Pride” type Mass then I would be out in full force against it. If it were a “Courage” type Mass that was trying to gather people with the same disorder in an effort to bolster their living the celibate life, then I probably wouldn’t be opposed. I guess it’s just unclear if we’re dealing with “rouge” homosexuals or not.

 

[devotus]

The only difference would be, according to Jedinovice, is that you aren’t threatened with a hate speech lawsuit if you say anything negative about the pedophiles (yet). If indeed Jedi’s take is accurate, who exactly would say the Masses if all of the priests are put in the poky. I’m sure, again if Jedi is correct, that this is what the bishop is weighing at this pointl.

i think it would be great press for a bishop to be jailed for upholding the catholic faith… as well as encouraging the faithful

So, sometimes persecution leads to less than optimum Mass conditions. For example, when Catholics were being persecuted in England (not now but then), should all of the priests have stood their ground in their Churches and been arrested? ?.

yes…

Were the ones who did Masses for the faithful in secret in error?.

only if thery were not heretics by day andcatholics by night

It sounds like the bishop has expressed the Church teachings on this issue. In fact, he has taken a pretty firm stance if you’ve read some press reports. Excommunicated? On what grounds? .

same grounds as Bishop Bruskewitz’s 1996 decree that excommunicated Call to Action, Catholics for a Free Choice, Planned Parenthood, the Hemlock Society, the Freemasons, and the Society of St. Pius X

Is the bishop working with the celibate homosexuals to get more people back? etc.? Which homosexuals asked for this Mass and what was their reasoning? etc.?.

yep…good questions

If this was a “Pride” type Mass then I would be out in full force against it. If it were a “Courage” type Mass that was trying to gather people with the same disorder in an effort to bolster their living the celibate life, then I probably wouldn’t be opposed. I guess it’s just unclear if we’re dealing with “rouge” homosexuals or not.

The mass is the mass… not to be politicized

 

[childofmary1143]

Usually just sticking to the truth works

Sorry… I thought that you had posted this …"Bear in mind that the Church here is under HUGE pressure on the subject of homosexuality – it is THE stick used to beat the Church with here and we are being legislated against for our ‘intolerance.’ Cormac has to show we hate the sin but love the sinner "

So he would have “pedophile mass” to counter any rouge pedophile masses?

hmm… Where does this end?

Sorry… I just do not see this as doing any good… The bad press alone has damaged the faith – He should have known better

First off as a Traditional Catholic devotus, most certainly doesn’t speak for me and his posts here are proof why God has Cardinal Cormac in his position and devotus is where he is.

 

[devotus]

First off as a Traditional Catholic devotus, most certainly doesn’t speak for me and his posts here are proof why God has Cardinal Cormac in his position and devotus is where he is.

I am very sucessful in my God given vocation - A catholic father and husband

I wish the good bishop the same success as I

Perhaps you could stick to articulating your position rather than taking cheap personnel shots – very uncatholic

 

[bear06]

i think it would be great press for a bishop to be jailed for upholding the catholic faith… as well as encouraging the faithful

Yes, but is it necessarily wrong if they don’t? I think we can both agree that it is not.

only if thery were not heretics by day andcatholics by night

 

[devotus]

Yes, but is it necessarily wrong if they don’t? I think we can both agree that it is not. .

 

[bear06]

Yes but lacking fortitude

How is it lacking fortitude to think that a priest may find it best for his flock to remain out of jail to provide the sacraments for them?! This paints everyone with the same brush. Not all are called to throw themselves in jail. Some are called to remain behind and provide for the flock. This is like saying that all pro-life priests that don’t get themselves arrested for stopping an abortion are wrong. This would be silly. There are those who should remain accessible to educate the public. I hate it when people say that we are all called to the same action.

Did not say he was… Just poor judgement and lacking courage

Prove it.

I disageee. These Homosexuals were attending “Gay Rouge Masses” outside of the Church – I would bet my last dollar that these " gay rouge masses" promote the gay lifestyle.

Anyone continuing to attend these and/or promoting the gay lifestyle should be excommunicated. Period.

You might want to read Jedi’s post again. You don’t know that is the case with the people who are attending the bishop’s Mass. You might bet, and you might be right or you might be wrong. It doesn’t sound like these Masses are going to cater to them but it does sound like they are supposed to minister to them. This has nothing to do with the rogue Masses. I probably could agree with you here although, like Bishop Bruskewitz did in his diocese, a certain amount of education must be done first. He didn’t just wake up and say “I excommunicate all of you”. He spent many years doing so.

 

[devotus]

Some more info on the gay Masses…

sohomasses.googlepages.com/thenewsohomasses

Which includes…

Civil Partnership Prayers:
These bidding prayers are among those used at Masses on the 3rd Sunday of each month
sohomasses.googlepages.com/civilpartnerships

Call me silly… but why would chaste gay/transgendered/ lesbian catholics have civil Partnership prayers???

Net -net is that this Bishop gave in to the world rather that take the heat

John 15:18"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

 

[Jedinovice]

Some more info on the gay Masses…

sohomasses.googlepages.com/thenewsohomasses

Which includes…

Civil Partnership Prayers:
These bidding prayers are among those used at Masses on the 3rd Sunday of each month
sohomasses.googlepages.com/civilpartnerships

Call me silly… but why would chaste gay/transgendered/ lesbian catholics have civil Partnership prayers???

Bear06… You never answered that you would attend these masses with your family if they were the only mass avail

Last comment and then I’m watching NCIS, going to sleep and doing something else. These are the Masses Cormac is seeking to ‘cut off.’ That’s the whole point.

 

[bear06]

Thanks Jedinovice for you comments. I really don’t think we’ll know what’s going on with them until Sunday. Apparently the CDF does know about it and the bishop worked with them until he got approval (something that many of the bishops around here probably would not have done).

Devotus, I rarely answer the “impossible” questions. The fact is that it’s probably impossible to find a diocese that holds a Mass geared towards homosexuals that doesn’t have 10 other Masses that don’t. This is quite a metropolitan situation and probably isn’t going to be found in the rural areas of New Zealand (where I’d like to vacation).

 

[Abira]

First, I do not like to see a Mass targeted at a group like homosexuals. I can see no purpose in it except for the need to make a political statement. I can hardly imagine having a bi-weekly Mass for adultrery, theft or any other sin.

On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with welcoming them to Mass and, as long as they are celebate, receiving communion, even at a Traditionalist Church. The sin of homosexuality should be treated like any other grave sin. It should not excessively stigmatize the sinner, nor should it be treated as anything less than the grave sin it is. I like this statement:

I agree with this statement and really liked its tone.

I struggle with SSA and for my part I do not understand why any gay person would want to be categorised in this way. I am so much more than this one tiny aspect of myself. Other people don’t go to adulterous masses or communions!!

Also, I have no problem with celebate gay priests or vicars… that should not be an issue if they do not practice homosexuality.

It would be much more constructive for the church to have offered… if they felt they had to offer anything… a form of prayer group for the gay people who wanted to worship there if they were actively gay and unable to take communion.

although, i read earlier someone saying they would rather miss their sunday obligation… I’m a protestant, so i’m unsure… but doesn’t missing mass without a big reason constitute a grave sin? I would have thought going was more important because it’s not meant to please the individual but to please God?? I apologise in advance of the clarifications and say thanks too

 

[boppysbud]

Personally I don’t see the problem if the gays involved are TRULY celibate, then they cannot be actively homosexual. I kind of see a contradiction in the OP. If they are actively homosexual, then again they are not celibate.

 

[Titus]

I am disappointed at the speed with which some posters have dismissed this new mass as ‘promoting the gay lifestyle’ or ‘rogue’ as if they knew exactly what it will be like, before the 1st one has happened- (it is tomorrow)

This is an attempt by HE to regularise a difficult situation, and provide a support network for London’s Catholics suffering from SSA, centred on a bimonthly mass.

The only part that has me worried is the page on civil partnership prayers. We must hope that is no part of the new mass, as I am sure it won’t be,

 

[fix]

Of course, none of this information is going to make the slightest difference to people’s opinions but there you go.

Why should it? You know I believe your argument is true and I believe that is why these types of things come to happen.

In the USA there is a constant debate about how to handle pro abort Catholic politicians. The argument for not denying them communion is similiar to the ones you describe here. The underlying tone in all them is basically do not be seen publicly as uncaring or too strident in defense of what is true because it may be worse than doing little or compromising.

We see the fruit of that argument today with plenty of “catholic” politicians garning “catholic” votes. It would seem these strategies, or whatever you call them, should be rethought.