U.S. bishops clarify Catholic approach to Jewish faith [CNA]

[antonivs]

JReducation makes a great mistake in assuming that the relationship between Christians, Jews, and Moslems is one of the Christians always being the exploiters and the other groups, always the aggrieved. There is plenty of persecution of Christians in the Moslem world. As for the Jews, they have persecuted others in their own times and places including right now in the Palestinian areas near Israel. This is a common liberal error. A careful study of history reveals there is plenty of blame to go around for all of us.

To spread the word of God, we should make no special concessions to any group. Of course no conversion can be forced. I don’t mind if a Moslem or a Mormon tries to convert me, I admire the faith involved in that person. I’m an adult in a free nation; I can thank that person and tell him or her of my faith. I would be stunned and gratified if a Jew tried to convert me; as it seems to me, that if one truly believes their faith hold the full truth of God and eternity, why then should they hold it available only to their select group? What if the full rights and authority of Christianity was held to be available to only a certain race and other races could only join as subordinate members not having rights to the high priesthood? What would JReducation think of that Christianity?

 I have had Mormons, Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, and various Evangelicals try to convert me.  I take no offense, either.

 Jews don't believe that non-Jews are automatically going to Hell, so they have no incentive to convert non-believers.  Jews believe that they are responsible for keeping 613 commandments while non-Jews are only responsible for 7 "Noachide" Laws which are pretty generic.  People do convert to Judaism, but they have to request it.

 

[JReducation]

JReducation makes a great mistake in assuming that the relationship between Christians, Jews, and Moslems is one of the Christians always being the exploiters and the other groups, always the aggrieved. There is plenty of persecution of Christians in the Moslem world. As for the Jews, they have persecuted others in their own times and places including right now in the Palestinian areas near Israel. This is a common liberal error. A careful study of history reveals there is plenty of blame to go around for all of us.

To spread the word of God, we should make no special concessions to any group. Of course no conversion can be forced. I don’t mind if a Moslem or a Mormon tries to convert me, I admire the faith involved in that person. I’m an adult in a free nation; I can thank that person and tell him or her of my faith. I would be stunned and gratified if a Jew tried to convert me; as it seems to me, that if one truly believes their faith hold the full truth of God and eternity, why then should they hold it available only to their select group? What if the full rights and authority of Christianity was held to be available to only a certain race and other races could only join as subordinate members not having rights to the high priesthood? What would JReducation think of that Christianity?

This thread is not about you or me. It is about what the bishops said. Please stop asking what I would think about this or that and where you believe that I am wrong.

You are right about one thing. We live in a free society and you are free to state your opinion. However, it does not serve the thread at all to turn this into a discussion of what I said or what I would believe concerning this point or that. I will not engage in that kind of dialogue. It does not serve a purpose.

As was already posted from the CCC, the Covenant with Israel has not been revoked. And as scripture remind us, Christ came to fulfill the covenant, not to revoke it.

In scripture a covenant is a bond between God and Israel. But the covenant is extended, not abolished according to the teachings of Pope Benedict XVI.

**Speaking of the tongues of fire (cf. Acts 2: 3), St Luke wants to show Pentecost as a new Sinai, as the feast of the New Covenant, where the Covenant with Israel is extended to all the nations of the earth. **

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20060604_pentecoste_en.html

In a formal meeting with Jews and a Jewish leader Pope John Paul II had this to say on the subject.

“I have said, you (the Jewish People) are the beloved elder brother of the Church of the original Covenant never broken and never to be broken”.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20051027_rabbi-rosen_en.html

The Holy Father himself said that the covenant with Israel was never to be broken. It is consistent with what Pope Benedict said later.

While it is true that the proclamation of the Christian faith is the right and duty of every Christian. It is also true that the heritage of the Jewish people is very different from those of other faiths. The approach to bringing the Jewish people into full communion with the Catholic Church has to assume to characteristics:

1. Witness to the truth by virtue of our Christian lives. As we live our Christian vocation we become more available to dialogue and more charitable toward others, especially the Jewish people, in this case. This helps bring down centuries of barriers between the Christian and the Jewish communities.
2. We Catholics must also remember that the God of Abraham which we profess is the same God of the Jewish people and that no one desires their salvation more than he. We cannot desire their salvation more than he does. Therefore, whatever they need for their salvation God will provide, either through us or through some other means that is outside of our range of understanding.

We may not deny the Jewish people the Christian faith, nor should we hide it from them. But we need not treat them as if they were a people without faith either. As our common heritage tells us, they are our older brothers and sisters in the faith. This was John Paul II’s belief.

He called Christians to mission, but he did not call Christians to our faith on those who have moral difficulties accepting it. Their conscience must be respected. This is what Nostra Aetate makes very clear. Everyone has the right to find truth, even above religion. But this right must be exercised without preasure. I believe this is what the bishops are trying to say.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[cassini]

This thread is not about you or me. It is about what the bishops said. Please stop asking what I would think about this or that and where you believe that I am wrong.

As was already posted from the CCC, the Covenant with Israel has not been revoked. And as scripture remind us, Christ came to fulfill the covenant, not to revoke it.

In scripture a covenant is a bond between God and Israel. But the covenant is extended, not abolished according to the teachings of Pope Benedict XVI.
In a formal meeting with Jews and a Jewish leader Pope John Paul II had this to say on the subject.

“I have said, you (the Jewish People) are the beloved elder brother of the Church of the original Covenant never broken and never to be broken”.

1. Witness to the truth by virtue of our Christian lives. As we live our Christian vocation we become more available to dialogue and more charitable toward others, especially the Jewish people, in this case. This helps bring down centuries of barriers between the Christian and the Jewish communities.
2. We Catholics must also remember that the God of Abraham which we profess is the same God of the Jewish people and that no one desires their salvation more than he. We cannot desire their salvation more than he does. Therefore, whatever they need for their salvation God will provide, either through us or through some other means that is outside of our range of understanding.

We may not deny the Jewish people the Christian faith, nor should we hide it from them. But we need not treat them as if they were a people without faith either. As our common heritage tells us, they are our older brothers and sisters in the faith. This was John Paul II’s belief.

He called Christians to mission, but he did not call Christians to our faith on those who have moral difficulties accepting it. Their conscience must be respected. This is what Nostra Aetate makes very clear. Everyone has the right to find truth, even above religion. But this right must be exercised without preasure. I believe this is what the bishops are trying to say.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I stopped counting the heresies in this ‘opinion’, no matter WHO says it. There are those within the Church that call this CRIMINAL THEOLOGY. The alledged union of ‘many religions’ - especially Juadism and Christianity - in ‘one covenant’. The old covenant is DEAD - GONE - FINISHED - TERMINATED. There is now the NEW COVENANT for all - The Messiah, the Saviour of the world, HAS COME in the divine Person and Sacred Humanity of Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Most Blessed Trinity incarnate, and that, while on earth, He found a Church, His Own Mystical Body, as the SOLE means of salvation for all men.

Charity is not to be ‘nice’ to false religions, especially the Arians, but to be BRUTALLY honest and let ALL know the Catholic Church alone was mandated by God as the sole means of salvation. THAT IS REAL CHARITY FOR IT MEANS THAT IF THEY GET THE GRACE TO CONVERT THEY WILL FIND ETERNAL LIFE WITH GOD. Being ‘nice’ and ‘charitable’ will send them on to an unknown destiny, possibly Hell. If one could ask any of these converts in heaven WHO was most charitable and they would tell you.

To teach that ‘many religions’ are united under ‘one covenant’ – that of the Old Testament, as the Modernists running the Church since Vatican II have been doing , is to place oneself in the terrifying position of those about whom Our Lord warned:

Everyone who shall deny Me before men, I shall also deny him before My Father Who is in Heaven. ( Matt. 10:32-33; Luke 12:8-9)

 

[JReducation]

I stopped counting the heresies in this ‘opinion’, no matter WHO says it. There are those within the Church that call this CRIMINAL THEOLOGY. The alledged union of ‘many religions’ - especially Juadism and Christianity - in ‘one covenant’. The old covenant is DEAD - GONE - FINISHED - TERMINATED. There is now the NEW COVENANT for all - The Messiah, the Saviour of the world, HAS COME in the divine Person and Sacred Humanity of Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Most Blessed Trinity incarnate, and that, while on earth, He found a Church, His Own Mystical Body, as the SOLE means of salvation for all men.

Charity is not to be ‘nice’ to false religions, especially the Arians, but to be BRUTALLY honest and let ALL know the Catholic Church alone was mandated by God as the sole means of salvation. THAT IS REAL CHARITY FOR IT MEANS THAT IF THEY GET THE GRACE TO CONVERT THEY WILL FIND ETERNAL LIFE WITH GOD. Being ‘nice’ and ‘charitable’ will send them on to an unknown destiny, possibly Hell. If one could ask any of these converts in heaven WHO was most charitable and they would tell you.

To teach that ‘many religions’ are united under ‘one covenant’ – that of the Old Testament, as the Modernists running the Church since Vatican II have been doing , is to place oneself in the terrifying position of those about whom Our Lord warned:

Everyone who shall deny Me before men, I shall also deny him before My Father Who is in Heaven. ( Matt. 10:32-33; Luke 12:8-9)

Are you saying that Benedict XVI and John Paul II are modernists because they hold that the covenant was not abolished, but opened up to the world?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Feanor2]

I stopped counting the heresies in this ‘opinion’, no matter WHO says it. There are those within the Church that call this CRIMINAL THEOLOGY. The alledged union of ‘many religions’ - especially Juadism and Christianity - in ‘one covenant’. The old covenant is DEAD - GONE - FINISHED - TERMINATED. There is now the NEW COVENANT for all - The Messiah, the Saviour of the world, HAS COME in the divine Person and Sacred Humanity of Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Most Blessed Trinity incarnate, and that, while on earth, He found a Church, His Own Mystical Body, as the SOLE means of salvation for all men.

Charity is not to be ‘nice’ to false religions, especially the Arians, but to be BRUTALLY honest and let ALL know the Catholic Church alone was mandated by God as the sole means of salvation. THAT IS REAL CHARITY FOR IT MEANS THAT IF THEY GET THE GRACE TO CONVERT THEY WILL FIND ETERNAL LIFE WITH GOD. Being ‘nice’ and ‘charitable’ will send them on to an unknown destiny, possibly Hell. If one could ask any of these converts in heaven WHO was most charitable and they would tell you.

To teach that ‘many religions’ are united under ‘one covenant’ – that of the Old Testament, as the Modernists running the Church since Vatican II have been doing , is to place oneself in the terrifying position of those about whom Our Lord warned:

Everyone who shall deny Me before men, I shall also deny him before My Father Who is in Heaven. ( Matt. 10:32-33; Luke 12:8-9)

Are you stating that the Pope and the hierarchy is wrong? You state that you are Catholic- surely you know that the Church doesn’t work that way. . .

 

[a_cermak]

While I suppose I’m grateful that the Catholic Church isn’t going to try to proselytize me (of which no thank you followed by a bustle away or door closure or whatever usually suffices to stop anyway), I’ll have to ask… when has the Catholic Church evangelized to anyone recently? At least in the Chicagoland area, I just don’t see a lot of witnessing of any sort going on. I mean, there’s Catholic radio, for those who want to listen to it (I suspect a huge case of preaching to the choir); there’s of course a church building in most neighborhoods, attended (I would suspect) by Catholics and probably not even a majority of them on any given Ordinary time Sunday.

So, OK, maybe I’m missing the huge push to evangelize by the Catholic Church in my area because I’m Jewish so they’re not talking to me. What other efforts are underway for the non-Jewish, non-Muslim inhabitants of the area?

 

[Feanor2]

The Church works in mission territories but never forces folks to pray or whatnot as the protestants do in order to receive food and other aid.

Catholics are more likely to show Christ by examples of charity.

I guess we changed our approach after conquering Europe in the Dark Ages and all that!

Converting by force just isn’t in style anymore. . .

 

[JReducation]

While I suppose I’m grateful that the Catholic Church isn’t going to try to proselytize me (of which no thank you followed by a bustle away or door closure or whatever usually suffices to stop anyway), I’ll have to ask… when has the Catholic Church evangelized to anyone recently? At least in the Chicagoland area, I just don’t see a lot of witnessing of any sort going on. I mean, there’s Catholic radio, for those who want to listen to it (I suspect a huge case of preaching to the choir); there’s of course a church building in most neighborhoods, attended (I would suspect) by Catholics and probably not even a majority of them on any given Ordinary time Sunday.

So, OK, maybe I’m missing the huge push to evangelize by the Catholic Church in my area because I’m Jewish so they’re not talking to me. What other efforts are underway for the non-Jewish, non-Muslim inhabitants of the area?

Like everything and everyone else, Catholics also mature with the passing of time. We do not proselytize. We believe that every man and woman has been called to holiness. We believe that every one has the universal calling to preach the Good News that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the promises made to Israel through the prophets. We believe that preaching is best done through example. The way that we live out our faith and how we share it with others is the best means of fulfilling our mission to others who are not Catholics.

We do not hide our faith from others and we do not turn others away from our faith, no matter how sinful we may believe them to be. A man’s conscience is only for God to judge, not for us to judge. We judge observable human behavior and we inform people that certain behaviors are right or wrong, depending on what has been revealed by God himself.

As Mother Teresa taught us, the best form of preaching is love. But love is not a sentiment, it is a way of living according to the truth that we have discovered. That’s why people like Mother dedicated herself to the service of the poorest of the poor. She discovered that Jesus Christ is the incarnate God who came into the world poor and who suffered on the cross as a common criminal, when he was innocent of the charges brought against him. She also believed him when he said that whoever shows love toward one of the least of his brothers does it for him. In her we see a perfect example of what Catholic mission or evangelization should look like. Mother never denied a Muslim or a Hindu knowledge of the Christian faith. But she did not harass them either. She moved around in their midst loving them as Christ loves them and loving Christ who lives in each of them, even if they are not aware of it.

Proselytizing has taken on a different nuance in today’s world. It means to force one’s beliefs on another. That is not what Catholics are called to do to anyone. On the other hand, Catholics are not to hide their believes for the sake of what is politically correct or fashionable. I was born and raised a Jew. What brought me into the Catholic Church were the Franciscan brothers who educated me. They never demanded that I be a Catholic. They didn’t even require me to attend their liturgy or their prayer. The only condition for attending their school was that I attend the religious education classes as would any student who studies religion as an academic subject.

As time passed, it was I who was attracted to what they taught. Most of all, I was attracted to how they lived. I began to ask questions about their way of life and about their founder. St. Francis of Assisi. As they explained in light of the prophets of Israel and with great patience and clarity, it was I who asked to enter the Catholic Church. Later I joined the order. I believe this is the manner that the bishops are talking about. Faith is shared through a gentle process of example and generosity when a person wants to know. It is also shared when we denounce actions that are contrary to God’s law.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[onmyknees]

Like everything and everyone else, Catholics also mature with the passing of time. We do not proselytize. We believe that every man and woman has been called to holiness. We believe that every one has the universal calling to preach the Good News that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the promises made to Israel through the prophets. We believe that preaching is best done through example. The way that we live out our faith and how we share it with others is the best means of fulfilling our mission to others who are not Catholics.

We do not hide our faith from others and we do not turn others away from our faith, no matter how sinful we may believe them to be. A man’s conscience is only for God to judge, not for us to judge. We judge observable human behavior and we inform people that certain behaviors are right or wrong, depending on what has been revealed by God himself.

As Mother Teresa taught us, the best form of preaching is love. But love is not a sentiment, it is a way of living according to the truth that we have discovered. That’s why people like Mother dedicated herself to the service of the poorest of the poor. She discovered that Jesus Christ is the incarnate God who came into the world poor and who suffered on the cross as a common criminal, when he was innocent of the charges brought against him. She also believed him when he said that whoever shows love toward one of the least of his brothers does it for him. In her we see a perfect example of what Catholic mission or evangelization should look like. Mother never denied a Muslim or a Hindu knowledge of the Christian faith. But she did not harass them either. She moved around in their midst loving them as Christ loves them and loving Christ who lives in each of them, even if they are not aware of it.

Proselytizing has taken on a different nuance in today’s world. It means to force one’s beliefs on another. That is not what Catholics are called to do to anyone. On the other hand, Catholics are not to hide their believes for the sake of what is politically correct or fashionable. I was born and raised a Jew. What brought me into the Catholic Church were the Franciscan brothers who educated me. They never demanded that I be a Catholic. They didn’t even require me to attend their liturgy or their prayer. The only condition for attending their school was that I attend the religious education classes as would any student who studies religion as an academic subject.

As time passed, it was I who was attracted to what they taught. Most of all, I was attracted to how they lived. I began to ask questions about their way of life and about their founder. St. Francis of Assisi. As they explained in light of the prophets of Israel and with great patience and clarity, it was I who asked to enter the Catholic Church. Later I joined the order. I believe this is the manner that the bishops are talking about. Faith is shared through a gentle process of example and generosity when a person wants to know. It is also shared when we denounce actions that are contrary to God’s law.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Hi Jreducation,

I agree with you that we are not called to force our beliefs on anyone and I also agree that by our example of love, charity and holiness we can convert people to Catholicism. But I have to agree with Coleski when he says that we also need to speak up about our faith in Jesus Christ, invite them to the Catholic mass, offer to explain it to them and even offer to pray with them. I do this all the time in charity and have had really good responses. Most are really glad that I have taken the time to talk and pray with them. I know of many Catholics who have converted to protestant churches because are separated brethren are really good at inviting people to their Churches. We Catholics need to learn our faith well and be excited about telling the good news to everyone!

 

[cassini]

are you saying that benedict xvi and john paul ii are modernists because they hold that the covenant was not abolished, but opened up to the world?

Fraternally,

br. Jr, osf

absolutely yes, yes, yes.

 

[cassini]

Are you stating that the Pope and the hierarchy is wrong? You state that you are Catholic- surely you know that the Church doesn’t work that way. . .

YES, I AM CERTAIN THAT ANYONE WHO CONTRADICTS THE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH IS WRONG NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE.

I am a Catholic and it is you who does not know HOW the Church works. Any pope (and hierarchy) can fall into error (I am being kind with the word I use) UNLESS they speak ex catherdra to the flock. God only guarantees such doctrine is protected by the Holy Ghost against error.

It is obvious many on this forum haven’t a clue what Modernism is and how it came about, let alone the philosophy of Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI. The Modernists have de-constructed the God-given unity of the faith (built compact and complete (Psal: 121:13)) and excised the hierarchically incorporated truths of natural reason - the preambles to Faith - and have left us with a shapless, bloodless, worse-than-anemic travesty of theology.

This shadow-theology has reduced the entire supernaturalk order of Divine Grace to a natural-material dis-order of devotional sentiment exalted at the expense of doctrine. This follows the murderous system of Immanuel Kant who separated morality from dogma. And so we now have a “theology” of the body and a “theology” of love in which AROS is transformed into AGAPE by what perverse natural magic anyone is free to imagine. ( Cf. Encyclical DEUS CARITAS etc.)

The second and intrinsically related crime of Modernist Criminal Theology is in the viewing of everything, by an evolutionary necessity, in the transformist mode of being. True to its Heraclitean-Hegelian parantage, the pilgrim conciliar church never steps twice into the same river. Every problematic issue is dealt with on absolutely ad hoc basis in the manner most conformable to the spirit of the Hegelian moment, the present advantageous here and now.

For the Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter that by His revelation they might disclose new doctrine… --INFALLIBLE teaching of VATICAN I

Pope John Paul II taught a universal salvation, and Pope Benedict XVI - deeply imbued with the Hegelian evolutionary philosophy of history is of the same mind. Thus the NEW COVENANT according to their philosophy and now incorporated into a BRAND NEW false theology, but never, never with a papal seal of infallibility.

The failure to confess and acknowledge openly Him and His Church to the unbelieving of all nations but especially to the Jews who, as the chosen people, prepared the world for His coming by divine types and prophesies – it is this falure that provokes Jesus Christ to deny before His Father, to refuse to recognise as His own, those who are ashamed of His NEW COVENANT in the Catholic Church ALONE.

 

[TMC]

YES, I AM CERTAIN THAT ANYONE WHO CONTRADICTS THE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH IS WRONG NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE.

I am a Catholic and it is you who does not know HOW the Church works. Any pope (and hierarchy) can fall into error (I am being kind with the word I use) UNLESS they speak ex catherdra to the flock. God only guarantees such doctrine is protected by the Holy Ghost against error.

It is obvious many on this forum haven’t a clue what Modernism is and how it came about, let alone the philosophy of Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI. The Modernists have de-constructed the God-given unity of the faith (built compact and complete (Psal: 121:13)) and excised the hierarchically incorporated truths of natural reason - the preambles to Faith - and have left us with a shapless, bloodless, worse-than-anemic travesty of theology.

This shadow-theology has reduced the entire supernaturalk order of Divine Grace to a natural-material dis-order of devotional sentiment exalted at the expense of doctrine. This follows the murderous system of Immanuel Kant who separated morality from dogma. And so we now have a “theology” of the body and a “theology” of love in which AROS is transformed into AGAPE by what perverse natural magic anyone is free to imagine. ( Cf. Encyclical DEUS CARITAS etc.)

The second and intrinsically related crime of Modernist Criminal Theology is in the viewing of everything, by an evolutionary necessity, in the transformist mode of being. True to its Heraclitean-Hegelian parantage, the pilgrim conciliar church never steps twice into the same river. Every problematic issue is dealt with on absolutely ad hoc basis in the manner most conformable to the spirit of the Hegelian moment, the present advantageous here and now.

For the Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter that by His revelation they might disclose new doctrine… --INFALLIBLE teaching of VATICAN I

Pope John Paul II taught a universal salvation, and Pope Benedict XVI - deeply imbued with the Hegelian evolutionary philosophy of history is of the same mind. Thus the NEW COVENANT according to their philosophy and now incorporated into a BRAND NEW false theology, but never, never with a papal seal of infallibility.

The failure to confess and acknowledge openly Him and His Church to the unbelieving of all nations but especially to the Jews who, as the chosen people, prepared the world for His coming by divine types and prophesies – it is this falure that provokes Jesus Christ to deny before His Father, to refuse to recognise as His own, those who are ashamed of His NEW COVENANT in the Catholic Church ALONE.

This is what I don’t understand about some Catholics. I readily admit that I disagree with the Church on some things. I have tried to reconcile my beliefs in those areas with what the Church teaches, but I am not able to. As a result, I no longer teach catechism. I cannot in good conscience teach something I think is wrong; but I am equally barred from teaching my own views as those of the Church.

Given my theological differences with the Church, I see myself as having two options. I can stay in the Church and pray for the differences to be resolved. I can pray for my own understanding of Church teaching. I can also pray that, if I am right, that someday the Church will change. Within certain bounds I can even speak up for my viewpoint. This is the path I have taken, and I have come some distance along this path, which I would call the path of the obedient dissenter.

The only other choice I think people like me have is to leave the Church, and join a denomination that more closely matches their theological views. I would call this the path of schismatic dissent. I have considered this, but so far I think I belong in the Church.

The option I don’t think is I have is to stay in the Church and insist that my opinions are the Church’s “true” opinions. To do so is to deny the Magisterium has the authority to teach the Faith. That is the point that I don’t think one can cross. When it comes to my life and my salvation my own faith and my own opinions matter. But when it comes to what the Church teaches, it doesn’t matter what I think is infallible, or how I think Scripture or Tradition should be interpreted and applied. I can’t resolve my catechism teaching conflict by continuing to teach the catechism, while changing certain chapters to suit my tastes. To do so would be to lie to those children, and to break the promise I made to their parents, to the Church and to God.

But in these forums I consistently run into this type of dissenter - the dissenter that claims he or she is not in dissent, rather 99+% of the other billion or so Catholics are in dissent from “true” Catholicism. I don’t understand how to justify this type of dissent. I accept that each person must follow and speak his conscience, but I don’t understand how tearing at the very fabric of the Church by denying the validity of the successors of the Apostles fits into that rubric. It would be wrong for me to teach my neighbors’ children differently than the Church would have me teach. Isn’t it just as wrong to fill the heads of the many who seek the faith on these boards with doubts as to the validity of the Church’s teaching authority? Isn’t it wrong to assume the authority granted to the Fisherman and deny that the man who thousands of bishops hail as the Vicar of Christ may teach in His name?

People call me a dissenter, which I admit, and occasionally a heretic, which I deny, but I would never embark on such a course, and I don’t know what to call someone who does.

 

[Thruxton]

Just for the sake of clarity…Do the Jews need to believe in Christ for salvation or do they have their “own deal?”

I believe that they do not have their “own deal” but I would like to see what other Catholics think.

 

[Feanor2]

All salvation is through Christ. For Christians, Jews, and people of other faiths. If one is saved it is through Jesus.

I guess the Jews are just sort of “mistaken.” They missed the boat- everything will be worked out though when Christ comes again.

 

[katgee]

The point is that the Jews remain God’s Chosen People, the covenant never broken…but to us, the Sacraments are the fruit of the Covenant.

The Jews have God, and it will be God Himself Who will reveal to them the Messiah…and possibly through one of us. It was He Who hardened them to not accept Christ so that the Gentiles could be saved. When the time of the Gentiles comes to an end, the Lord will reveal to them in His manner and the Jewish people will recognize His movement.

The Jewish people have given us the Patriarchs, Prophets, the Psalms, the wonderful witness of courage and faith and the work of preserving its people, as well as providing us Christ and the beginning Church. We should ever be grateful and owe them some degree of veneration.

However, that does not mean we do not use the opportunities at hand to be a witness of our faith to the Jewish people or Moslems as well. Catholics do best by being in a working relationship, open and reciprocal dialogue. I find the Jewish people wonderful and many times find it easy to be on common ground with them.

 

[una_ecclesia]

Just some humble thoughts…

I don’t think it is correct to refer to the old covenant as “broken” because that would not imply fulfillment but a rupture. there is a difference between saying it was broken and saying it was fulfilled: the first implies a failure, but the second shows that it did serve some purpose. Christ himself said “I come not to abolish the law but to fulifll it”

Based on that, the new covenant is the fulfillment of the old, but because it so, the old covenant in and of itself is obsolete, not because it was broken, but because it served its purpose and thus was no longer necessary. I find that essesntially the same as saying that it was opened up from just the Jewish people to the world as JReducation states, mainly because his view seems to emphasize more the continuation of the old into the new, while I see it as explained above. The views are not mutually exclusive in essense. But I don’t believe that there is still currently a separate covenant present exclusively between the Jews and God (I dont think this is what you are saying either JR, but if you can clarify it would be nice).

The letter to the Hebrews explains that quite thoroughly in my opinion (a prime example would be in ch 8 vs.7-13). I am somewhat surprised that Hebrews hasnt been brought up yet considering that this is precisely one of the main issues it deals with, emphasizing how the old covenant was ultimately a forshadowing and preparation for the new. After all, why continue to have a forshadowing when we now have the real thing?

In regards to evangelization, I think most can agree that its best form is through example rather than mere words. Nonetheless, both Jews and other non-Christians will not know why you act the way you do unless you explicitly tell them with charity the reason for your way of living.

I recently read a book on the subject written by a Jewish convert to Catholicism named Roy H. Schoeman called Salvation Is from the Jews. It covers the role of the Jews in salvation history both before the coming of Christ and even afterwards, as well as the relationship between Jews and Christians throughout history. Its a good read, and I reccomend it to anyone who wants to know some more about the issue.

I myself know very little, and Im sure I just wrote many things that were quite obvious to other readers. I have yet to see what the Catechism even says specifically about the Jewish faith, so if there is anything I said that seems wrong, I am open to correction

God bless

 

[katgee]

I have read Roy Shoeman’s book as well.

People here may be interested in Hebrewcatholic.org. The forum is most enlightening…Jews who have come to fulfillment in the Catholic faith, as well as seeing fulfillment of ancient passages in the Catholic Church…in a way that a Gentile Catholic cannot, simply because we are not Jewish.

I am learning my Catholic faith again through these Hebrew Catholics who help me connect in a new way, the Old Testament.

They put out a newsletter with Hebrew Catholic writers.