U.S. bishops clarify Catholic approach to Jewish faith [CNA]

[chosen_people]

That’s interesting. Can you provide any evidence or examples to substantiate your allegations?

You can start from the last papal state under Pius IX and work your way back. Are Catholics never taught their Church history, Papal laws and edicts concerning Jews? Do you honestly not know about Jews being forced by the Catholic Church to attend special Catholic religious classes or about forced conversions of Jews?

 

[JReducation]

I’m guessing that these guys AREN’T the Franciscans who routinely get into fistfights with the Orthdox at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre??
Just funnin’ ya. We’re all fallen, no?

.

Subscript is mine.

I wouldn’t doubt the veracity of that statement. In our 800 year history as a religious familly, we have had more than our share of nutjobs and lose canons and I don’t mean Canons Regular either, just regular canons.

I look at it this way. No family is perfect. Some families are less dysfunctional than others.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Coleski]

Going out to win souls to Gods’ salvation takes courage and faith stronger than most of us are willing to attempt. I admire those who go door to door to preach the word of God. Something I don’t see Catholics, myself included, doing much of. I am suspect of this talk of showing how loving and kind one as the only way. The Missionaries did more than speak the Word of God; they built buildings, bridges, and hospitals, roads, taught modern means of agriculture, sanitation, and medicine. Countless millions of lives were saved because of these efforts. They lead by example and lived chaste lives. But isolated examples are used to discredit them wholesale, a classic use of the lie. We hear that the missionaries were nothing but greedy exploiters who brought the evils of Western Civilization upon unwilling peoples. These lies are preached by the Godless Marxists who want only a material revolution. You live a better life in the here and now to say nothing of the hereafter if you convert, truly convert, to the faith. I am so tired of modern people buying into lying propaganda intended to discredit the Catholic Church with these claims of how evil the Church is and always has been. When you believe and act on the lies of your enemies, you are doomed. Is not the good news, good news? At this time it is nothing more than a smug excuse for doing nothing and speaking nothing but vague liberal nostrums about not wanting to hurt anyone’s feelings. We in the West have become comfortable cowards. If anyone needs some evangelization it is the Jews for they totally reject Jesus with a fierce pride and sense of victimhood that so now plagues our world with resentment, hate, pride, and anger, from racialism, to feminism, to homosexualism, to you name it. The intent of proselytizing is to save souls, and being nice and meek in public, now more than ever, is not enough.

 

[JReducation]

Going out to win souls to Gods’ salvation takes courage and faith stronger than most of us are willing to attempt. I admire those who go door to door to preach the word of God. Something I don’t see Catholics, myself included, doing much of. I am suspect of this talk of showing how loving and kind one as the only way. The Missionaries did more than speak the Word of God; they built buildings, bridges, and hospitals, roads, taught modern means of agriculture, sanitation, and medicine. Countless millions of lives were saved because of these efforts. They lead by example and lived chaste lives. But isolated examples are used to discredit them wholesale, a classic use of the lie. We hear that the missionaries were nothing but greedy exploiters who brought the evils of Western Civilization upon unwilling peoples. These lies are preached by the Godless Marxists who want only a material revolution. You live a better life in the here and now to say nothing of the hereafter if you convert, truly convert, to the faith. I am so tired of modern people buying into lying propaganda intended to discredit the Catholic Church with these claims of how evil the Church is and always has been. When you believe and act on the lies of your enemies, you are doomed. Is not the good news, good news? At this time it is nothing more than a smug excuse for doing nothing and speaking nothing but vague liberal nostrums about not wanting to hurt anyone’s feelings. We in the West have become comfortable cowards. If anyone needs some evangelization it is the Jews for they totally reject Jesus with a fierce pride and sense of victimhood that so now plagues our world with resentment, hate, pride, and anger, from racialism, to feminism, to homosexualism, to you name it. The intent of proselytizing is to save souls, and being nice and meek in public, now more than ever, is not enough.

Several consecutive popes have already stated that Catholics are not to prostelatyze to the Jews and the Muslims.

**“The USCCB reaffirms what the Holy See has stated repeatedly: that while the Catholic Church does not proselytize the Jewish people, neither does she fail to witness to them her faith in Christ, nor to welcome them to share in that same faith whenever appropriate,” said Bishop Lori, chairman of the Bishops’ Committee on Doctrine and Pastoral Practice. **

As Catholics, laymen and bishops have an obligation to obey and trust the Holy Spirit. The Church is not saying that we may not share our faith with these people. She is not saying that we should not be missionaries and evangelists by our way of life and our service to them. The Church is not saying that we must deny our faith. She is saying that we must not try to convert them.

On the other hand, she is also saying that we should not deny them the privilege of the Christian faith if they seek us out. Many Jews and Muslims have become Christians, inspired by the faith and charity of Christians.

I am often reminded of Dr. Edith Stein who was converted by the faith of St. Teresa of Avila. Brother Bob Fishman was converted by the Catholic Church’s faith in the prophets. I was born Jewish and was converted by the charity of the Capuchin Franciscan friars and by their prayerful lives.

God uses many means to pour out his mercy and grace upon people. We need not fret about how he will do it. What we need to do is to live according to our state in life and according to the commitments that we have made with God and the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Deacon_Augustin]

You can start from the last papal state under Pius IX and work your way back. Are Catholics never taught their Church history, Papal laws and edicts concerning Jews? Do you honestly not know about Jews being forced by the Catholic Church to attend special Catholic religious classes or about forced conversions of Jews?

Thanks, just like Br. JR OSF, you are not able to cite any evidentiary examples, but rather rely on hearsay and anti-Catholic propaganda and expect everybody to go along with your bald assertions like mindless liberal lemmings.

I suppose you are another one of these Judaizers who is trying to undermine the mission of the Church of God?

 

[Deacon_Augustin]

Going out to win souls to Gods’ salvation takes courage and faith stronger than most of us are willing to attempt. I admire those who go door to door to preach the word of God. Something I don’t see Catholics, myself included, doing much of. I am suspect of this talk of showing how loving and kind one as the only way. The Missionaries did more than speak the Word of God; they built buildings, bridges, and hospitals, roads, taught modern means of agriculture, sanitation, and medicine. Countless millions of lives were saved because of these efforts. They lead by example and lived chaste lives. But isolated examples are used to discredit them wholesale, a classic use of the lie. We hear that the missionaries were nothing but greedy exploiters who brought the evils of Western Civilization upon unwilling peoples. These lies are preached by the Godless Marxists who want only a material revolution. You live a better life in the here and now to say nothing of the hereafter if you convert, truly convert, to the faith. I am so tired of modern people buying into lying propaganda intended to discredit the Catholic Church with these claims of how evil the Church is and always has been. When you believe and act on the lies of your enemies, you are doomed. Is not the good news, good news? At this time it is nothing more than a smug excuse for doing nothing and speaking nothing but vague liberal nostrums about not wanting to hurt anyone’s feelings. We in the West have become comfortable cowards. If anyone needs some evangelization it is the Jews for they totally reject Jesus with a fierce pride and sense of victimhood that so now plagues our world with resentment, hate, pride, and anger, from racialism, to feminism, to homosexualism, to you name it. The intent of proselytizing is to save souls, and being nice and meek in public, now more than ever, is not enough.

Amen. Our Lord did not commission us to go out and be social workers - man cannot live by bread alone.

 

[Deacon_Augustin]

Several consecutive popes have already stated that Catholics are not to prostelatyze to the Jews and the Muslims.

…The Church is not saying that we must deny our faith. She is saying that we must not try to convert them.

These are some of the most wicked untruths that I have seen presented on a Catholic forum. Satan could not have asked for more.

Rather than your false opinion of what the Church believes and what the Popes have allegedly stated, this is what Pope Benedict said about our duty to evangelize in March of this year:

"Today it is up to you, brothers and sisters, following in the footsteps of those heroic and holy heralds of God, to offer the Risen Christ to your fellow citizens. So many of them are living in fear of spirits, of malign and threatening powers. In their bewilderment they end up even condemning street children and the elderly as alleged sorcerers.

Who can go to them to proclaim that Christ has triumphed over death and all those occult powers (cf. Eph 1:19-23; 6:10-12)? Someone may object: “Why not leave them in peace? They have their truth, and we have ours. Let us all try to live in peace, leaving everyone as they are, so they can best be themselves.” But if we are convinced and have come to experience that without Christ life lacks something, that something real – indeed, the most real thing of all – is missing, we must also be convinced that we do no injustice to anyone if we present Christ to them and thus grant them the opportunity of finding their truest and most authentic selves, the joy of finding life. Indeed, we must do this. It is our duty to offer everyone this possibility of attaining eternal life."

Benedict XVI
Mass with religious of Angola and São Tomé
Luanda, Angola
March 21, 2009

 

[JReducation]

These are some of the most wicked untruths that I have seen presented on a Catholic forum. Satan could not have asked for more.

Rather than your false opinion of what the Church believes and what the Popes have allegedly stated, this is what Pope Benedict said about our duty to evangelize in March of this year:

"Today it is up to you, brothers and sisters, following in the footsteps of those heroic and holy heralds of God, to offer the Risen Christ to your fellow citizens. So many of them are living in fear of spirits, of malign and threatening powers. In their bewilderment they end up even condemning street children and the elderly as alleged sorcerers.

Who can go to them to proclaim that Christ has triumphed over death and all those occult powers (cf. Eph 1:19-23; 6:10-12)? Someone may object: “Why not leave them in peace? They have their truth, and we have ours. Let us all try to live in peace, leaving everyone as they are, so they can best be themselves.” But if we are convinced and have come to experience that without Christ life lacks something, that something real – indeed, the most real thing of all – is missing, we must also be convinced that we do no injustice to anyone if we present Christ to them and thus grant them the opportunity of finding their truest and most authentic selves, the joy of finding life. Indeed, we must do this. It is our duty to offer everyone this possibility of attaining eternal life."

Benedict XVI
Mass with religious of Angola and São Tomé
Luanda, Angola
March 21, 2009

Rev. Deacon:

I’m simply restating what Bishop Lori said, but in different words. My words do not conflict those of the Holy Father. There is a difference between bringing Christ to all men and prostelatizing.

Do you believe that what Bishop Lori said is contrary to what the Holy Father had in mind?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Coleski]

As to JReducations assertion that "Several consecutive popes have already stated that Catholics are not to proselytize to the Jews and the Muslims:

JReducation asserts: “The USCCB reaffirms what the Holy See has stated repeatedly: that while the Catholic Church does not proselytize the Jewish people, neither does she fail to witness to them her faith in Christ, nor to welcome them to share in that same faith whenever appropriate,” said Bishop Lori, chairman of the Bishops’ Committee on Doctrine and Pastoral Practice. "

If this is so, then quote these Popes directly, word for word, don’t use the frequently heretical USCCB as an authority. This often heretical group had to remove a heretical statement from the catechism that supports the heresy of dual covenant theology that is the Jews have their own covenant equal to the Christians. The Mosaic covenant to the Jews ended at Calvary. If you don’t think so then read the word of God in the New Testament and not the heretical equivocations from the USCCB that sometimes worm their way into the American Catechism.

What JReducation is saying is not the truth. The USCB is frequently out of line in its positions. Jesus did not say go and make disciples of all the nations except for the Jews and oh; by the way in another 700 years, another group who will be called Muslims will appear, don’t seek to convert them either. You can convert Hindus, Buddhists, pagans, atheists, but not to Jews and Muslims, This is a ridiculous and false assertion that must be called what it is.

 

[JReducation]

As to JReducations assertion that "Several consecutive popes have already stated that Catholics are not to proselytize to the Jews and the Muslims:

JReducation asserts: “The USCCB reaffirms what the Holy See has stated repeatedly: that while the Catholic Church does not proselytize the Jewish people, neither does she fail to witness to them her faith in Christ, nor to welcome them to share in that same faith whenever appropriate,” said Bishop Lori, chairman of the Bishops’ Committee on Doctrine and Pastoral Practice. "

If this is so, then quote these Popes directly, word for word, don’t use the **frequently heretical USCCB **as an authority. **This often heretical group **had to remove a heretical statement from the catechism that supports the heresy of dual covenant theology that is the Jews have their own covenant equal to the Christians. The Mosaic covenant to the Jews ended at Calvary. If you don’t think so then read the word of God in the New Testament and not **the heretical equivocations from the USCCB **that sometimes worm their way into the American Catechism.

What JReducation is saying is not the truth. The USCB is frequently out of line in its positions. Jesus did not say go and make disciples of all the nations except for the Jews and oh; by the way in another 700 years, another group who will be called Muslims will appear, don’t seek to convert them either. You can convert Hindus, Buddhists, pagans, atheists, but not to Jews and Muslims, This is a ridiculous and false assertion that must be called what it is.

The bold is mine.

There is no satisfactory response that any faithful Catholic can give to anyone who has the audacity and the arrogance to call the entire Episcopal Conference HERETICAL or to say that a statement in the official Cetechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul II, is HERETICAL For to such a person, nothing is worthy of their attention, except their own version of the truth and their judgement which they have already passed and sealed.

I, as a Franciscan, am bound by a solemn vow of obedience to observe and follow what the Holy Father and the successors of the Apostles teach in communion with him, including the Catechism of the Catholic Church, promulgated by the Holy Father himself as the model for all catechisms. I have no right to an opinion, which may be over their own or which may make of me an authority over them. For to assume such a position would be contrary to the vows of obedience to the Gospel, to the Church. to our holy father Francis and to all the saints.

I cannot in conscience respond to your attack on the bishops, while you use the very Word of God to attack the successors of the Apostles from whose oral traditon the Gospels were composed. To use the Gospels against the Apostles would be a ruthless act of disobedience, a grave sin against humility and a more serious sin against holy poverty, which enjoins all of us to own nothing for ourselves, not even our own opions, unless they receive the blessing of Christ, through the bishops and the successor of Peter.

Since I have not received the authority to judge the bishops, neither from Christ himself directly, nor from the successor of Peter, I cannot do so, nor can I morally condone anyone who does.

But all I can ask is that you pray for you and me. For one of us is in a grave state of arrogance and ignorance. May God bring which ever of us is in error back into light, which ever is disobedient, back to obedience, which ever is uncharitable, back to charity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[chosen_people]

Thanks, just like Br. JR OSF, you are not able to cite any evidentiary examples, but rather rely on hearsay and anti-Catholic propaganda and expect everybody to go along with your bald assertions like mindless liberal lemmings.

I suppose you are another one of these Judaizers who is trying to undermine the mission of the Church of God?

I’m not sure you understand the meaning of the word “Judaizer” and therefore am unable to respond logically. Suffice it to say that as stated I am Jewish and have no wish to convince Christians to adopt Torah or Jewish practices or wish to pass myself off as a Christian.

I will gladly provide you with all the evidential examples you require and will be happy to educate you in Papal laws and edicts concerning Jews and their effects. Historical facts are not propaganda and whether they are pro or anti a particular group, should be justified or derided, is a matter for your interpretation.

 

[Coleski]

JReducation responded, if one cares to notice, by not responding. Did not the heretical statement in American Catechism have to be removed because it made a false claim that the Jews had a separate (mosaic) covenenent equal to the Christian covenant with Jesus?The Abrahamic covenant was opened to the whole human race because of Christs’ great work. That Great work also closed the mosaic covenant to the Jews. I will pray for Mr. education regarless of his failure to admit that this heresey in the American Catecism occured, and had to be removed by mandate from Rome. If one fails to admit this, then one is in need of even more prayer for penance and forgiveness. If he does admit this grave sin of heresy, he will still have my prayers for following those paths of liberalism that lead to sinful error. But my prayers will will have joy for his seeing the error of his ways.

And again, please tell the truth, I did not say, "arrogance to call the entire Episcopal Conference HERETICAL. I said frequently heretical, there is a difference. Dishonesty is a sin, is it not?

 

[JReducation]

JReducation responded, if one cares to notice, by not responding. Did not the heretical statement in American Catechism have to be removed because it made a false claim that the Jews had a separate (mosaic) covenenent equal to the Christian covenant with Jesus?The Abrahamic covenant was opened to the whole human race because of Christs’ great work. That Great work also closed the mosaic covenant to the Jews. I will pray for **Mr. education **regarless of his failure to admit that this heresey in the American Catecism occured, and had to be removed by mandate from Rome. If one fails to admit this, then one is in need of even more prayer for penance and forgiveness. If he does admit this grave sin of heresy, he will still have my prayers for following those paths of liberalism that lead to sinful error. But my prayers will will have joy for his seeing the error of his ways.

And again, please tell the truth, I did not say, "arrogance to call the entire Episcopal Conference HERETICAL. I said frequently heretical, there is a difference. Dishonesty is a sin, is it not?

Thanks for your feedback. By the way, I’m not a Mr. I’m Brother or Friar.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TMC]

JReducation responded, if one cares to notice, by not responding. Did not the heretical statement in American Catechism have to be removed because it made a false claim that the Jews had a separate (mosaic) covenenent equal to the Christian covenant with Jesus?The Abrahamic covenant was opened to the whole human race because of Christs’ great work. That Great work also closed the mosaic covenant to the Jews. I will pray for Mr. education regarless of his failure to admit that this heresey in the American Catecism occured, and had to be removed by mandate from Rome. If one fails to admit this, then one is in need of even more prayer for penance and forgiveness. If he does admit this grave sin of heresy, he will still have my prayers for following those paths of liberalism that lead to sinful error. But my prayers will will have joy for his seeing the error of his ways.

And again, please tell the truth, I did not say, "arrogance to call the entire Episcopal Conference HERETICAL. I said frequently heretical, there is a difference. Dishonesty is a sin, is it not?

To answer your question, no the USCCB did not remove a heretical statement from the Catechism, whether by mandate of Rome or otherwise. To say that they did is at best deliberately misleading, but better described as a lie.

The US version of the Catechism was published in 2006. It was approved by the Vatican, and has never been declared heretical by the Vatican. The change that was made to the Catechism in 2008 was made at the request of the US Bishops, not by mandate of the Vatican. The change was made because self-annointed apologists were misinterpreting the catechism in a way that was confusing to some of the faithful. Apparently you were amongst the confused, as the catechism did not say that the mosaic covenant was seperate from or equal to the new covenant.

 

[JReducation]

To answer your question, no the USCCB did not remove a heretical statement from the Catechism, whether by mandate of Rome or otherwise. To say that they did is at best deliberately misleading, but better described as a lie.

The US version of the Catechism was published in 2006. It was approved by the Vatican, and has never been declared heretical by the Vatican. The change that was made to the Catechism in 2008 was made at the request of the US Bishops, not by mandate of the Vatican. The change was made because self-annointed apologists were misinterpreting the catechism in a way that was confusing to some of the faithful. Apparently you were amongst the confused, as the catechism did not say that the mosaic covenant was seperate from or equal to the new covenant.

Thank you.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Coleski]

It is so interesting that those who claim to correct me never address the issue of heresy that I brought up. They chastise me for being mislead and accuse me of being somehow sinful. The heretical statement in the American catechism said:

When God called Abraham out of Ur, he promised to make him a ‘great nation.’ This began the history of God’s revealing his divine plan of salvation to a chosen people with whom he made enduring covenants. Thus the covenant that God made with the Jewish people through Moses remains eternally valid for them.

It is so interesting to me, now that I’ve started to debate a little on this site what people of true faith are up against. I stand corrected perhaps on the procedures that led to the removal of the heretical statement. What I get from my detractors is sanctimonial posing from those who I believe, support the heresy. How dare I say such? I’m obviously someone who has been misled; it is claimed. If I’m misled then the statement is not heresy. My main concern is that Jesus’ work opened the Abrahamic covenant to the whole human race. The Church is universal and for all time for Jews and gentiles alike. What’s so wrong about that? The Jews by their rejection of the Son of God ended their Mosaic covenant. Rejecting God should have some consequences shouldn’t it? Salvation is now through Jesus alone, as stated in the New Testament. The statement that the “covenant that God made with the Jewish people through Moses remains eternally valid for them.” is heresy put in the American Catechism by certain interests for a reason. Who put it there and why was it removed? This statement leads to dual covenant theology that claims that the Jews have a separate arrangement with God with no need of the saving grace of Christ. Who is being misled here? If dual covenant theology is true then perhaps we aren’t so equal. As Jesus said, you cannot serve two masters. I entered this debate because of a claim that Catholics were not to try to convert Jews or Moslems. The implication of that assertion is obvious, the Jews and Moslems have their own path to salvation. Understand any conversion must be done only from the full freewill of the person converted. It cannot be coerced.

In our time, Christians have been cowed into thinking it somehow sinful to try to convert anyone. The dominant culture tells us never to speak of religion. Guess what; it’s easier that way, but are we being true to our faith, if we never call anyone, Jew or gentile, to repent and commit heart and soul to the only true God in the blessed Trinity? I’ll admit that I haven’t made any efforts in that regard and there are members in my family and friends lost to Christianity and Catholicism. I come from a family of eight children, brought up Catholic, where I’m the only remaining Catholic. Of those eight, only two others are even nominally Christian. Catholic bashing is relentless. God hating is open, aggressive, and hostile. Where can I contribute? I do read, and think deeply. I believe Heaven and Hell are real destinies for all of us. The possibility of those who abjectly reject Christ our Savior going to Hell to me is not an outmoded fantasy. It is as real as our last breath. But let us not try to convert anyone, especially Jews? In the name of God, I ask why? It is so American to be deathly afraid of offending anyone. We are on our way to making offending a person a punishable crime. Maybe we can call the police then and have those door to door evangelicals arrested. The truth about us human beings and our ancestors is that we all have blood on our hands. None of us are sacred. Only the saving grace of God can keep us from falling into the abyss. There are no sacred victims among us, saintly by heritage alone, where others are likewise victimizers. Saint Paul the great Jewish scourge of early Christian converted and declared all equal in the eyes of God. What if Jesus held to the rule claimed now for Catholics regarding Jews by my detractors on the road to Damascus?

 

[RobbyS]

As to JReducations assertion that "Several consecutive popes have already stated that Catholics are not to proselytize to the Jews and the Muslims:

JReducation asserts: “The USCCB reaffirms what the Holy See has stated repeatedly: that while the Catholic Church does not proselytize the Jewish people, neither does she fail to witness to them her faith in Christ, nor to welcome them to share in that same faith whenever appropriate,” said Bishop Lori, chairman of the Bishops’ Committee on Doctrine and Pastoral Practice. "

If this is so, then quote these Popes directly, word for word, don’t use the frequently heretical USCCB as an authority. This often heretical group had to remove a heretical statement from the catechism that supports the heresy of dual covenant theology that is the Jews have their own covenant equal to the Christians. The Mosaic covenant to the Jews ended at Calvary. If you don’t think so then read the word of God in the New Testament and not the heretical equivocations from the USCCB that sometimes worm their way into the American Catechism.

What JReducation is saying is not the truth. The USCB is frequently out of line in its positions. Jesus did not say go and make disciples of all the nations except for the Jews and oh; by the way in another 700 years, another group who will be called Muslims will appear, don’t seek to convert them either. You can convert Hindus, Buddhists, pagans, atheists, but not to Jews and Muslims, This is a ridiculous and false assertion that must be called what it is.

God’s Covenant with the Jews did end with the coming of Christ. The mission of the Jews was always to bear witness to the Living God. It was thanks to the Diaspora that the Gospel spread so quickly throughout the world. I am thinking of Lydia and those who gathered whom Paul addressed after he first came to Europe. The way had been prepared for him.

 

[TMC]

It is so interesting that those who claim to correct me never address the issue of heresy that I brought up. They chastise me for being mislead and accuse me of being somehow sinful. The heretical statement in the American catechism said:

When God called Abraham out of Ur, he promised to make him a ‘great nation.’ This began the history of God’s revealing his divine plan of salvation to a chosen people with whom he made enduring covenants. Thus the covenant that God made with the Jewish people through Moses remains eternally valid for them.

It is so interesting to me, now that I’ve started to debate a little on this site what people of true faith are up against. I stand corrected perhaps on the procedures that led to the removal of the heretical statement. What I get from my detractors is sanctimonial posing from those who I believe, support the heresy. How dare I say such? I’m obviously someone who has been misled; it is claimed. If I’m misled then the statement is not heresy. My main concern is that Jesus’ work opened the Abrahamic covenant to the whole human race. The Church is universal and for all time for Jews and gentiles alike. What’s so wrong about that? The Jews by their rejection of the Son of God ended their Mosaic covenant. Rejecting God should have some consequences shouldn’t it? Salvation is now through Jesus alone, as stated in the New Testament. The statement that the “covenant that God made with the Jewish people through Moses remains eternally valid for them.” is heresy put in the American Catechism by certain interests for a reason. Who put it there and why was it removed? This statement leads to dual covenant theology that claims that the Jews have a separate arrangement with God with no need of the saving grace of Christ. Who is being misled here? If dual covenant theology is true then perhaps we aren’t so equal. As Jesus said, you cannot serve two masters. I entered this debate because of a claim that Catholics were not to try to convert Jews or Moslems. The implication of that assertion is obvious, the Jews and Moslems have their own path to salvation. Understand any conversion must be done only from the full freewill of the person converted. It cannot be coerced.

…

I take it that you now admit that the Catechism was not changed by a mandate from Rome. Why do you keep insisting that the statement that the Mosaic Covenant is eternally valid is heretical? It reflects what all Christians believe - that God keeps his promises. Some folks that would rather stir up trouble than seek truth have agitated that the Church is somehow abandoning Christ by recognizing this simple truth.

The statement you call heretical could not have been slipped into the catechism by mysterious “interests.” The process of drafting, vetting and approving the catechism took six years. It was submitted to a vote of all the US bishops, and had to be approved by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

The problem is that a few are adding what was never there. The USCCB never said that clinging to the old covenant is equivalent to embracing the new. So the catechism now says:

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, “the first to hear the Word of God.” The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”; “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”

The bishops have said that the old version was an attempt to simplify this, and that they clearly over-simplified as it was misunderstood by some. But to say that changing this passage in response to that misunderstanding proves the old one was heresy is non-sensical. If they believe your misinterpretation why would they change the passage? If the passage is clearly in error, why did the Vatican approve it in the first place?

To me, there are three possibilties. Either (1) the bishops as a group misstated the Faith and the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith “missed” that clear heresy despite a six year process, (2) some amateur apologists and theologians are misunderstanding the text and creating undue stress by spreading that misunderstanding, or (3) the same amateur apologists are deliberately exploiting a misunderstanding as a tool in their efforts to attack and discredit the Magisterium.

I find (1) hard to credit. I would like to think the answer is (2), but I fear that the real situation is a combination of (2) and (3).

 

[Coleski]

JReducation makes a great mistake in assuming that the relationship between Christians, Jews, and Moslems is one of the Christians always being the exploiters and those other groups, always the aggrieved. There is plenty of persecution of Christians in the Moslem world. As for the Jews, they have persecuted others in their own times and places including right now in the Palestinian areas near Israel. This is a common liberal error. A careful study of history reveals there is plenty of blame to go around for all of us.

To spread the word of God, we should make no special concessions to any group. Of course no conversion can be forced. I don’t mind if a Moslem or a Mormon tries to convert me, I admire the faith involved in that person. I’m an adult in a free nation; I can thank that person and tell him or her of my faith. I would be stunned and gratified if a Jew tried to convert me; as it seems to me, that if one truly believes their faith hold the full truth of God and eternity, why then should they hold it available only to their select group? What if the full rights and authority of Christianity was held to be available to only a certain race and other races could only join as subordinate members not having rights to the high priesthood? What would JReducation think of that Christianity?

 

[Coleski]

JReducation makes a great mistake in assuming that the relationship between Christians, Jews, and Moslems is one of the Christians always being the exploiters and the other groups, always the aggrieved. There is plenty of persecution of Christians in the Moslem world. As for the Jews, they have persecuted others in their own times and places including right now in the Palestinian areas near Israel. This is a common liberal error. A careful study of history reveals there is plenty of blame to go around for all of us.

To spread the word of God, we should make no special concessions to any group. Of course no conversion can be forced. I don’t mind if a Moslem or a Mormon tries to convert me, I admire the faith involved in that person. I’m an adult in a free nation; I can thank that person and tell him or her of my faith. I would be stunned and gratified if a Jew tried to convert me; as it seems to me, that if one truly believes their faith hold the full truth of God and eternity, why then should they hold it available only to their select group? What if the full rights and authority of Christianity was held to be available to only a certain race and other races could only join as subordinate members not having rights to the high priesthood? What would JReducation think of that Christianity?