U.S. Bishops Reject Latest HHS ‘Accommodation’

[Orianna]

Look i am all for patient controlled healthcare which can easily be done without either the government or an employer based insurance plan.

Tell me you want the same people who have bankrupted Social Security, Medicare, and the Post Office running a government healthcare system. Tell me you want a nameless faceless panel in Washington DC deciding whether your mom gets a new hip or if your child with a severe birth defect gets medical care…I didn’t think so.

When patients are in control of their healthcare, they make rational decisions both to the extent of healthcare provided and the cost. Nothing like a little bit of competition to drop prices.

HSAs and other medical savings accounts with a “wrap” policy for catastrophic care work very well. Too bad Obamacare got rid of them for the most part.

What is really the issue is the amount of control over your life. Obamacare did not address the real isses which are costs and access. It’s fine to provide some kind of high risk pools to cover those who are uninsurable or some kind of catastrophic coverage for those with astronomical bills. It did not take a 3000 page bill, a takeover of the student loan system, additonal taxes on medical devices and the sale of your home to cover those costs.

The whole thing was just a power grab. Too bad no one read it before voting. They have sowed in haste and repenting in leisure.

Lisa

Lisa, Your position is very anti-government. However, the government is neutered repeatedly to benefit big business. For example, the PO is not allowed to compete with its competitors and cannot profit from store sales in the same manner. This continues to be a problem with government operations, always forced to give away its profitability to support some other programs. But don’t take that to mean they are poorly run. They are legislatively neutered. Same goes for medicare and social security, where congress strips the profits repeatedly. Like any business, you look at what you are doing wrong and fix it. Thinking the only solution is to eliminate the programs is short-sighted.

The takeover of student loan system was because there is too much profiting by banks on the backs of low income students. We can use those profits to support cheaper education, so why not ‘take over’ this educational opportunity?

I’m afraid you listen to too many of the wrong voices across the air waves! Those voices are designed to strip profit into the hands of the few, and force taxpayers to give up their citizen’s rights to education and health care… which industrialized nations most certainly can afford to provide. Note, I did not use your word ‘control’, because that is part of the propaganda to turn us away from the logical conclusion that we already contribute to this system that should be protecting basic rights, whereby these rights represent a government responsibility, not a government failure to let people be free!

 

[Orianna]

Orianna;10354033:

The issue of insurance mandates in religion-run institutes confounds me for several reasons. While I feel religious organizations should not be forced to go against their beliefs, health care and abortion rights are nationally recognized. I believe in separation of church and state and that the church is specifically not taxed because it is an entity that does not become involved in governing matters for the state (or country).

Their is no right in the constitution to kill. Abortion should not be legal. Abortion does not belong in the same sentence with right. If anyone has the right to kill that is God and God alone. Seperation of church and state should NEVER be interpreted to mean seperation of church from state. Where moral conscience is infringed, the governed have a right to rebel against the government and take up arms if necessary after ignoring unjust mandates and exhausting all other means of resistance. Render to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s. The founding documents recognize human rights to: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as well as freedom of religion or conscience.

Nowhere in the constitution does it distinguish between taxpayers and non taxpayers with regard to religious freedom and the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I think the issue here is what is considered killing a human being. The abortion issue centers not only on a woman’s right to choose, but also regarding the determination of when a growing fetus is a human being with a soul of its own. From the standpoint of those that disagree with banning abortion, they clearly do not see a moral infringement. They do not see this as approving a human murder. They, too, are citizens and the majority of America (see polls). Thus, by our democratic rule, it is the law of the land.

We can argue all day whether a 6-12 wk embryo is a human being and has acquired its soul, or whether the authors of the bible could have specifically understood the workings within the womb sufficient to guide, or whether there are modern day interpretation issues inherent in deciphering the meaning of its antiquity. Unfortunately, the majority of people will not claim that God is against their belief it is a woman’s right to choose when to give birth and bring a life into the world. That is this country’s majority belief regarding the rights and freedoms of the individual in pursuit of happiness. The minority does not decide how to govern, no matter the strength of conviction.

Thus, to your dismay it is necessary to accept the governing body is Ceasar, and has wielded its power. To rebel against this is to go against God’s command. We are to remain humble guides to our people and show them the way of God. The Jews may have wanted a warrior God, but Jesus stayed clear of that path of destruction.

 

[Orianna]

Yeah “off the backs of the employers” and leave millions uninsured again. That definitely is in line with catholic positions.

You haven’t read my posts! I don’t believe we need insurance, we need healthcare. Free and available for all, just like every other industrialized nation. Costs of premiums go to the shareholders, i.e., the taxpayers… through supporting the programs.

Eliminate middleman: the insurance companies and billions, let me repeat that, BILLIONS of profits is used to pay the premiums for all.

Concerns for quality? Force congressman to use the same system as the citizens they represent.

Talk to foreigners: they don’t validate any of the scare tactic horror stories spread in our media

Socialism? Only if you think Britain and Netherlands are oppressed and suffer from loss of freedoms. Socialistic health care, by same definition, represents our public school system and our social security programs, humane programs voted in by representation of the people in a democratic nation.

 

[LisaA]

Lisa, Your position is very anti-government. However, the government is neutered repeatedly to benefit big business. For example, the PO is not allowed to compete with its competitors and cannot profit from store sales in the same manner. This continues to be a problem with government operations, always forced to give away its profitability to support some other programs. But don’t take that to mean they are poorly run. They are legislatively neutered. Same goes for medicare and social security, where congress strips the profits repeatedly. Like any business, you look at what you are doing wrong and fix it. Thinking the only solution is to eliminate the programs is short-sighted.

The takeover of student loan system was because there is too much profiting by banks on the backs of low income students. We can use those profits to support cheaper education, so why not ‘take over’ this educational opportunity?

I’m afraid you listen to too many of the wrong voices across the air waves! Those voices are designed to strip profit into the hands of the few, and force taxpayers to give up their citizen’s rights to education and health care… which industrialized nations most certainly can afford to provide. Note, I did not use your word ‘control’, because that is part of the propaganda to turn us away from the logical conclusion that we already contribute to this system that should be protecting basic rights, whereby these rights represent a government responsibility, not a government failure to let people be free!

I suggest you are listening to the wrong voices if you believe what you state above…the needlessly perjorative comments about “big business” the evil tone with respect to the word “profit” as if the concept were inherently bad. Comments like “profits in the hands of the few” make you sound like someone promoting statism if not communism.

You may be a socialist but you cannot demonstrate where socialism or communism has worked in the long run. As Margaret Thatcher noted, eventually you run out of other people’s money. Further what has lifted more people out of poverty than any government is the free enterprise system. You should listen to voices like John Macky, the CEO and founder of Whole Foods. Tell me you’d rather shop at a store run by the Communist Party in the former USSR or your local Whole Foods market? Willing buyers and willing sellers are what makes for an equal exchange, rather than the thumb of government telling us what we can or must do, buy, or engage in.

As to healthcare being “free” apparently you are an advocate of slavery since you apparently think that doctors, nurses and other healthcare providers should use their skills and talents to save your life but you owe them nothing…it’s up to that mysterious government to pay for it. Except that is you and me and the rest of the 47% of Americans who are actually MAKING not just TAKING.

I have no CLUE what you mean by Congress “stripping” profits from Medicare and Social Security. Maybe you can explain since neither one of those programs is an enterprise but simply a financial distribution system. As to the “billions” of profits in insurance companies, many are non-profit such as the largest in this area (Kaiser). They exist to benefit their members and are quite good at keeping costs down.

I also have no idea what you mean that the PO is unable to compete. In fact it has a HUGE protection in the ability to be the carrier of first class mail for what is actually a pittance. FedEx or UPS can’t compete in that market. OTOH they CAN and do compete in package service and the PO has actually taken some steps to make themselves more appealing with such services as flat rate shipping, package tracing, and a great price to send to the military who are deployed. OTOH the PO is strangled by huge pension costs, building costs, and antiquated regulations. Where it is NOT competitive is in those areas…costs…not in its revenues where if anything it has a competitive advantage.

I truly get the impression you are someone with an education but not a lot of real life experience. You might find that things that work in college textbooks or even utopian dreamer books don’t work in real life.

Lisa

 

[ProVobis]

Yeah “off the backs of the employers” and leave millions uninsured again. That definitely is in line with catholic positions.

When one considers that many companies choose to outsource jobs because they can’t cover the costs of healthcare for US workers, I think it behooves someone to take a second look into letting workers get their own insurance, like they do for life, auto, home, etc. As long as they can get it, what’s the problem? Very few other countries have an employer-based system the way the U.S. has, so it’s not a Catholic thing.

 

[nute]

Oh I see so if the government doesn’t uphold the morals that YOU have then you just recommend everyone to take up arms and start killing people. Very moral stance.

Arms don’t kill people, people kill people. I said take up arms if necessary. I actually said NOTHING about killing people. I said exhaust all other means of resistance. Since when do I as an American not have a right to stand up for what I believe including my moral code? My religious practices are constitutionally protected and freedom of religion is in fact one of the foundational reasons why America exists today as a country.

Lisa, Obama is a communist. The democrat party, at least the liberal wing, is very communist. At the same time, I find the tea party disturbing also. Taxes may have to be raised, they aren’t always too high. Granted, they probably shouldn’t be raised during a recession and I’m against government spending that isn’t likely to give long term benefits. Obama is deficit spending at an alarming rate, Congress should stop him by refusing to raise the debt ceiling unless there are significant spending cuts.

I’m appaled Lisa that you are being accused of being anti government simply because
you criticized the Obama administration. We both pay taxes and I imagine we both
vote, so that in my book gives us full license to crtique our elected officials, harshly
when appropriate. I pray for the impeachment of Obama or barring that, a conversion of
his heart. Failing that, civil disobedience is appropriate. God help us if civil disobedience isn’t enough and the situation devolves into revolution. Obama was a very bad choice for America because he is radical. Instead of healing the divides, he is inflaming people.

I was not careful in what I said about taking up arms. I don’t want to see that happen in America, but I’m afraid that it will. I feel violated by the HHS mandate, I cannot in good conscience help pay for an immoral procedure.

Paul Ryan is right, everything is free but you.

 

[LisaA]

Arms don’t kill people, people kill people. I said take up arms if necessary. I actually said NOTHING about killing people. I said exhaust all other means of resistance. Since when do I as an American not have a right to stand up for what I believe including my moral code? My religious practices are constitutionally protected and freedom of religion is in fact one of the foundational reasons why America exists today as a country.

Lisa, Obama is a communist. The democrat party, at least the liberal wing, is very communist. At the same time, I find the tea party disturbing also. Taxes may have to be raised, they aren’t always too high. Granted, they probably shouldn’t be raised during a recession and I’m against government spending that isn’t likely to give long term benefits. Obama is deficit spending at an alarming rate, Congress should stop him by refusing to raise the debt ceiling unless there are significant spending cuts.

I’m appaled Lisa that you are being accused of being anti government simply because
you criticized the Obama administration. We both pay taxes and I imagine we both
vote, so that in my book gives us full license to crtique our elected officials, harshly
when appropriate. I pray for the impeachment of Obama or barring that, a conversion of
his heart. Failing that, civil disobedience is appropriate. God help us if civil disobedience isn’t enough and the situation devolves into revolution. **Obama was a very bad choice for America because he is radical. Instead of healing the divides, he is inflaming people.**I was not careful in what I said about taking up arms. I don’t want to see that happen in America, but I’m afraid that it will. I feel violated by the HHS mandate, I cannot in good conscience help pay for an immoral procedure.

Paul Ryan is right, everything is free but you.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I in full agreement with you regarding Obama. I feel the American people were fooled to some extent. If I had a nickel for every misguided soul who claimed Obama was a “centrist” I could pay off my mortgage. I kept wondering “DO YOU LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAYS?” I think he is a master of deception in that he tells partial truths, omits the important elements of the issue, and then appeals to our pettiness, our greed and our envy rather than to our better angels. I’ve heard a number of responses to the SOTU address…how he claimed 6 million jobs but omitted that he ignored the entire first year of his reign where we were shedding jobs like a German Shepherd blowing his coat in the spring. He said gas milage had doubled…well not exactly. He has demanded STANDARDS where gas mileage doubles…by 2025! Again the grand deception. Let’s just say he’s a darned good liar…just as he lied when he PROMISED Cardinal Dolan that he would not ask religious organizations to compromise their conscious. As much of a diplomat as is the Cardinal, it was obvious he believed that Obama had deliberately misled him.

You may not be as old as I am but I can hear President Kennedy say “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.” In contrast Obama is all about “Ask what you can get for YOURSELF by taking it away from fellow Americans…”

People here and elsewhere talk about “free” medical care. But they forget the “golden rule” that he who pays the gold, makes the rule! The HHS Mandate is a perfect demonstration of this evil twist…we will makes sure you get “free” birth control by making sure religious organizations and other people of conscious pay for it. Scary because this is JUST the beginning of their takeover of health care.

Lisa

 

[ProVobis]

Lisa, Obama is a communist. The democrat party, at least the liberal wing, is very communist.

My father, rest his soul, would strongly disagree with you and he fought in two major wars. And he’s seen or lived under real communism, socialism, occupations, and dictatorships.

But it’s a nice thing to throw around when the guy you don’t like is in office, I guess.

 

[nute]

My father, rest his soul, would strongly disagree with you and he fought in two major wars. And he’s seen or lived under real communism, socialism, occupations, and dictatorships.

But it’s a nice thing to throw around when the guy you don’t like is in office, I guess.

I’m sorry, Obama is an atheistic communist. Atheistic because he doesn’t respect conscience objections to artificial birth control. He is a communist because he believes in taking from the wealthy to give to the less fortunate even if that undermines individual productivity. If wealth is lost to taxes, people start to say, “why bother with being wealthy,” or, “how can I avoid paying taxes.” Another point, some wealthy people are very generous without government pressure to be so, but taxes are generally not set up to take that into account. Communists aren’t very considerate about who they call wealthy. Listen to what Obama says about taxes needing to be higher in the middle of a recession. I’m not calling him a communist simply because he is black or just because I don’t like him, I’m calling him one because of his actions and his policy stands. Obama refuses to cut spending but when it comes to raising taxes and the debt ceiling he is all for that.

I seriously doubt that your father fought in two wars so that future Americans would be forced to violate their consciences’ through their taxes. Insofar as Obama increases federal government control of Americans, by controlling health care, he is a communist.

 

[ProVobis]

I seriously doubt that your father fought in two wars so that future Americans would be forced to violate their consciences’ through their taxes.

Interestingly enough, LBJ imposed a 10% surtax so we could pay for our war against communism. I’m no defender of that war and my dad didn’t fight in it but you are free to ask any of the Vietnam veterans what it was like to face communists in person.

 

[jediliz]

Good for our Holy shepherds! They must NOT give in! They must continue the fight until this whole mandate is dropped into a pot of acid and rescinded.

Who else is a master of deception? The one we must remember to be on our guard against.

I still wonder why some “catholics” voted for him again cause he doesn’t want to help the poor AT ALL. The charities that DO HELP the POOR could be forced to shut down if the mandate is NOT rescinded!

 

[Mark121359]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlueCane
It seems the US Bishops will reject anything this admin will do because they just are more conservative. Thats the problem I have with the Bishops.

HILARIOUS! Actually the Bishops are CATHOLIC and their rejection of the HHS Mandate is with respect to CATHOLIC doctrine. You know that pesky little prohibition against killing unborn babies?

Lisa

Hilarious indeed! It amazes me that Catholics use terms like “conservative” to describe the U.S. Bishops as if the Church is some sort of democratic institution that can change to whichever way the wind is blowing. They seem to forget that the Church was founded by Christ to fulfill the Word of God not to fulfill the will of the people!

 

[LisaA]

Good for our Holy shepherds! They must NOT give in! They must continue the fight until this whole mandate is dropped into a pot of acid and rescinded.

Who else is a master of deception? The one we must remember to be on our guard against.

I still wonder why some “catholics” voted for him again cause he doesn’t want to help the poor AT ALL. The charities that DO HELP the POOR could be forced to shut down if the mandate is NOT rescinded!

Exactly. The theory that Obama wants to help the poor is a total canard. The Left is fond of claiming that “A budget is a moral document” Given that a budget is a bunch of numbers on a page, I have a difficult time with the literal translation of that silly comment. OTOH I think I understand the point, that if you see where funds are spent or allocated that indicates what is important to those devising the budget. Putting aside that Reid hasn’t allowed a budget in four years since this would force them to actually vote for or against something that might compromise the next election, let’s look at what Obama has promoted and how it helps the poor.

Green energy projects…BILLIONS given to poorly operated companiest that spent taxpayer money on gold plated bathroom fixtures and the recent story about the car battery plant that never made anything so they sat around playing board games.

Cash for clunkers…again benefitting the unions making the new cars, making used cars, the very vehicle the poor often buy more difficult to find and more expensive

Credits for Volts and Tesslas…welfare for millionaires since these cars are out of the range of most taxpayers and sadly WE ARE SUBSIDIZING THEIR PURCHASE

Takeover of healthcare: how’s that workin out? More expensive and harder to access

Planned Parenthood: …located frequently in low income areas and making millions from abortion

Stopped drilling in the Gulf against a court order destroying thousands of wellpaying jobs, stopped the Keystone Pipeline…thousands of jobs that will never be available

The list goes on…

Now to the credit column, he’s pushed ever extended unemployment because having destroyed the economy he needs to keep people alive long enough to vote for Democrats in the next election, Obamaphones…millions to people who didn’t need them for the intended purpose, no oversight, more food stamps so we encourage government dependence…see above…need to keep those voters going!

As to whether he’s a communist, fascist, statist or socialist, I really don’t think it matters. He is clearly not a free market Constitutionalist. I still think Peggy Noonan was right in her column “An Alien in the White House.” He may have been born in Hawaii but his outlook is NOT American. His speeches breed envy, mistrust, and victimhood. He never appeals to our better angels but appeals to the worst in us…and he sure brings it out doesn’t he?

Truly a force of destruction in our wonderful country.

Lisa

 

[Mark121359]

I suggest you are listening to the wrong voices if you believe what you state above…the needlessly perjorative comments about “big business” the evil tone with respect to the word “profit” as if the concept were inherently bad. Comments like “profits in the hands of the few” make you sound like someone promoting statism if not communism.

You may be a socialist but you cannot demonstrate where socialism or communism has worked in the long run. As Margaret Thatcher noted, eventually you run out of other people’s money.

Lisa

Oh so true! Lisa, your posts on this subject are excellent!

Peace, Mark

 

[Sister_Angel]

May your marriage be blessed with an abundance of children… but many women today want to be barren. Sex is not love, sex is a natural gift from God that is intended to bring forth children and to draw a husband and wife closer together spiritually and emotionally.
Trust me when I say that sex outside of marriage is not love from experience and worse,
if a child is conceived the situation is both unfair to that child and the child’s life could be in danger.

Concern, if the issue is framed as church blocks access to: birth control, abortion, and sterilization for women, the issue is framed such that the church won’t win.

Obama is a constitutional lawyer, shame on him. He should know better than to ignore religious freedom and attempt to impose a religion from the federal level that many of us
do not want. There are no majorities on same sex marriage, abortion, or even access to contraceptives. These are at best polarizing issues where half the country is on one side and the other half is on the other. The solution isn’t to: pick a side, ignore the constitution, and impose whatever you can. That is Obama’s approach, the
American people should have known that this time and they should have voted
accordingly.

I guess Catholic women who know better than God how many children they should have can’t use natural family planning. After all, natural family planning is what God wants married couples to engage in with Him.

Sexual arousal is fleeting. A single man who has a porn problem wants love, but the images don’t love him. Love is not spiritually harmful. Even if the man connects with a prostitute he does not experience love unless, the encounter is chaste and the prostitute has a change of heart. She must begin to care about both her spiritual health and his.
What is fleeting does not satisfy us spiritually where we are not merely natural beings.

To love is to want the absolute ultimate good for another, no matter the cost to yourself In mutual love, that cost is mitigated by the other party as much as possible because that other party doesn’t want you to suffer. Love needs a return, we are made to love and be loved ultimately by God our creator.

The single life after being sexually abused by a woman who treated sex as if it were love when in fact I was just being used by her is hard to live. If she could have gotten pregnant and had, this HHS mandate would make me pay potentially for the death of my own child. Women are given power in our society that doesn’t belong to them, the power to kill and to prevent the transmission of life artificially. This HHS mandate seeks to reinforce that as if women have to have sexual mastery over men or they are being denied their rights. Whatever happened to your rights end when the next person’s rights will be infringed? What about God’s rights which supercede man’s?

A change of heart is needed in America. We need to do a better job of teaching people why our values are what they are and we must attempt to reveal God’s burning love to those who deny him. A love so strong that one must either: accept God completely, repent and ask for healing, or reject God completely. God love is so great, those three options are your only options.

Obama needs to be impeached on a charge of attempting to violate freedom of conscience and ultimately render null and void the constitution. I have faith that the house could push for an impeachment, but I’m worried the Senate will not carry it.

Perhaps I didn’t read this right? Sexually abused by a woman? I hope you don’t hate all woman for this ?You sound very bitter may you be well and pray for your strength I will pray for you to Be well you have good intentions but there is allot on your plate and many don’t see all you see through your eyes and abuse.
I am sorry for your pain.:angel1:

 

[BigBlueCane]

Exactly. The theory that Obama wants to help the poor is a total canard. The Left is fond of claiming that “A budget is a moral document” Given that a budget is a bunch of numbers on a page, I have a difficult time with the literal translation of that silly comment. OTOH I think I understand the point, that if you see where funds are spent or allocated that indicates what is important to those devising the budget. Putting aside that Reid hasn’t allowed a budget in four years since this would force them to actually vote for or against something that might compromise the next election, let’s look at what Obama has promoted and how it helps the poor.

Of course its a moral document because those numbers on the page have actual consequences and affect people. If you budget your living expenses and reduce the amount of food allowance to your children those are also just “numbers on a page” but they have consequences. Plus the Bishops have said the Ryan budget is immoral so obviously budgets do carry a sense of morality.

Now to the credit column, he’s pushed ever extended unemployment because having destroyed the economy he needs to keep people alive long enough to vote for Democrats in the next election, Obamaphones…millions to people who didn’t need them for the intended purpose, no oversight, more food stamps so we encourage government dependence…see above…need to keep those voters going!

Really? So lets see he inherits an economy that was collapsing and now its all of sudden his plan to continue unemployment going for votes? Wow thats a hell of a conspiracy that also would’ve involved the Bush policies that got us in this financial mess.

As to whether he’s a communist, fascist, statist or socialist, I really don’t think it matters. He is clearly not a free market Constitutionalist. I still think Peggy Noonan was right in her column “An Alien in the White House.” He may have been born in Hawaii but his outlook is NOT American. His speeches breed envy, mistrust, and victimhood. He never appeals to our better angels but appeals to the worst in us…and he sure brings it out doesn’t he?

Truly a force of destruction in our wonderful country.

Lisa

The force of destruction are those conservative policies that ruined the economy and would rather bring it back on the backs of the poor just to prop up the rich. But Im sure in your book thats what a real “free market constitutionalist” does.

 

[nute]

How is relating that I was abused by someone suggest that I hate women in general?

I don’t hate women (half the human race), I do hate abuse.

Concerning the Bush’s policies got us in trouble rhetoric, that is ridiculous. Bush told the truth concerning his policies and he actually cared about jobs. I’m not so sure that Obama cares about anything other than forcing an agenda on the country that does nobody any good.

Most people in the country are somewhat to strongly opposed to abortion and possibly even artificial birth control as well, but that doesn’t seem to matter to Obama. Why was he reelected?

I don’t believe in legislating immorality on a nationwide basis, and neither did the founders of this country. The bishops are right to criticize the HHS mandate and demand respect for religious freedom in the form of freedom of conscience.