U.S. Catholic-Muslim dialogue launched, Chicago Archbishop Cupich to co-chair

[Micosil]

I find it hard to accept the idea that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God.

Can anyone explain to me why I should accept this as true
and are there any Saints of the Catholic Church who accepted this teaching.

Was this believed before Vatican II?

This is a topic of debate for another thread, but I’d recommend this article by Tim Staples.

My take is that as long as a person understands the basic metaphysical truth that God is “the one, merciful God,” then errors concerning what God has said, or what he has revealed about his inner life are simply errors about those things, not about God as the one, true God.

 

[pnewton]

Was this believed before Vatican II?

It was defined at Vatican II in the dogmatic constitution Lumen Gentium, making it part of the magisterial doctrine of the Catholic Church, just like the Trinity.

Consider how little Abram knew of God when he left Ur. He probably was one of the most theologically ignorant people in all history yet his faith was great. So God taught him. He taught Israel, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, and all the prophets. It took God two millennia to teach these people about his Trinitarian nature. This is the spirit of dialogue we take what we have in common and in that we can pray and worship together while we take one step at a time. I am not worried about the Church being brought into error any more than Gideon was worried about being defeated by the Midianites. In the end, we win.

This is just the process between organizations. One on one evangelism is similar, but need not take centuries (thanks be to God).

 

[808Catholic]

Christians have fought against each other for exactly the same reason; now we can pray together and pray for each other and share in doing good deeds.

We should be able to forge these same kind of relationships, with non - Christians, there are choices involved. One set of choices, forgiveness, mercy, compassion and kindness will lead to living peacefully together, the other choices of fighting evil with evil, will lead to more animosity and conflict.

Someone has to lead the way towards peace, and yes there are risks, I look to Nelson Mandela for inspiration.

I look to Christ for inspiration. He was beaten, tortured, ridiculed, and crucified. His Way is not the easy way and there were no compromises along the path. I expect the same for His Church and followers.

 

[808Catholic]

This is great!

I’m not a Catholic, but I see so much hatred towards Muslims, in my own church and on this very site. For as long as I’ve been lurking, I rarely ever see anything positive said about Muslims. Hopefully this will stop some of the vitriol aimed at innocent Muslim men and women.

We may not believe that their religion is “correct”, so to speak, but how can we convert without kindness and understanding?

With truth and showing the conviction of our faith. The Church has always grown on the blood of its martyrs.

 

[808Catholic]

The thing is, we live in the 21st century, that these other faith systems are there, there are differences between said faith systems and religions, and I do think that dialogue is possible between people with differing beliefs. We live in the real world here, not in heaven where everyone is in perfect agreement.

Jesus Christ lived in the real world also. His message was about love but also about devotion to God the Father. Dialog is nice if there’s a goal that’s attainable through dialog but sometimes you just have to be committed to living your life as Christ lived His. Be prepared to die if need be and realize no amount of compromise will get you to heaven.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

I look to Christ for inspiration. He was beaten, tortured, ridiculed, and crucified. His Way is not the easy way and there were no compromises along the path. I expect the same for His Church and followers.

There seemed to be no compromise on the greatest commandments, God’s chosen people, the priest and the Levite were made to look the bad guys, and the Samaritan was the good guy.

I would say there is a great need to love all our neighbours despite all our differences.

 

[808Catholic]

Ah. Then lest we talk past each other, I was mainly referring to dialogue among the leadership. They understand what you are saying, though it is true there are many among the laity that err in different ways in understanding what ecumenism is and isn’t.
This is apologetics. Dialogue, by definition, is a two-way conversation, listening as much as talking. It is also about more than conversion. Dialogue can be about issues and addressing common social ills, like abortion, pornography, divorce, social injustice, etc. Dialogue can also be about common worship, since it is Catholic dogma that we both worship the one true God.

But the same cannot be said of Islam belief of Christian worship. They believe in Allah the One God but not the Holy Triune God.

 

[808Catholic]

I find it hard to accept the idea that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God.

Can anyone explain to me why I should accept this as true
and are there any Saints of the Catholic Church who accepted this teaching.

Was this believed before Vatican II?

This belief is expressed directly in the CCC; as Catholics we are bound to follow and believe it. I personally struggle with this understanding and continue to pray for guidance and discernment from the Holy Spirit.

 

[ProVobis]

Ah. Then lest we talk past each other, I was mainly referring to dialogue among the leadership. They understand what you are saying, though it is true there are many among the laity that err in different ways in understanding what ecumenism is and isn’t.
This is apologetics. Dialogue, by definition, is a two-way conversation, listening as much as talking. It is also about more than conversion. Dialogue can be about issues and addressing common social ills, like abortion, pornography, divorce, social injustice, etc. Dialogue can also be about common worship, since it is Catholic dogma that we both worship the one true God.

Interesting you say that. Right outside Chicago at a Christian college one of the professors was fired for saying the same thing.

I think we better jjust stick to ordinary everyday things. My Muslim neighbors help with shoveling snow and talk about our cats. Religion would be the last thing I would want to talk about.

 

[808Catholic]

There seemed to be no compromise on the greatest commandments, God’s chosen people, the priest and the Levite were made to look the bad guys, and the Samaritan was the good guy.

I would say there is a great need to love all our neighbours despite all our differences.

Eric, I do not dispute Christ tells us to love our neighbors (regardless of their religion or disposition towards Christians). My point is purpose of dialog with those theologically in opposition to our theology. The purpose. What would be the purpose or goal of the beaten man conversing with passers? Did the (Gentile) Samaritan even need dialog to do what is right in God’s eyes?

 

[808Catholic]

Interesting you say that. Right outside Chicago at a Christian college one of the professors was fired for saying the same thing.

I think we better jjust stick to ordinary everyday things. My Muslim neighbors help with shoveling snow and talk about our cats. Religion would be the last thing I would want to talk about.

This is not a bad situation. Helping each other with daily tasks like shoveling snow or even caring for each other’s pets when needed. We evangelize by our actions more than with our words. Islam and Christianity.

 

[HolyCrusader007]

I didn’t say that we should not speak to them or treat them with out kindness.

When I talk about the Church trying to please other false religions such as Islam. I am talking about certain Catholics who think that ecumenism is about ignoring our differences between us and telling them that the Church is fine with them staying where they are in their false religion because everyone goes to heaven no matter what religion you are

Hello Trad Catholic27, how are you

Here is what the Church has to say about Muslims and the plan of salvation,

Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium 16, November 21, 1964

“But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/interreligious/islam/vatican-council-and-papal-statements-on-islam.cfm

 

[HolyCrusader007]

Dialogue is pointing out errors in false religions by using the Bible along with quotes from the Early Church Fathers and urging conversion to the Faith.

I know nobody here said that. But I have met many Catholics who think that way.

No matter what happens with this dialogue between Catholicism and Islam. The Muslim community will still keep killing Catholics and orthodox in middle east because their Quran orders them to it

This Arab Eastern Catholic Priest says that Muslims and Christians should team up to defeat ISIL.

youtube.com/watch?v=JDboe5b-JJo

He is pointing out how significant the middle east is for the Christians and how Christians and Muslims have lived peacefully together for many years prior to ISIL coming to town.I trust in what the Priest says. And it is for reasons such as this that I support peaceful relations with Muslims, and I would also point out Saint Francis of Assisi’s relations with Muslims

saintandthesultan.com/about.html

as reasoning for my positive views of Muslims.

 

[Trad_Catholic27]

Thank you HolyCrusader007
I am fine and thank you for quoting the Vatican II Document

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

This belief is expressed directly in the CCC; as Catholics we are bound to follow and believe it. I personally struggle with this understanding and continue to pray for guidance and discernment from the Holy Spirit.

Is it part of the Magisterium? I didn’t think that this was a definite teaching of the Church that was binding upon Catholics. It seems strange that the Church would demand that we believe in something like this.

 

[HolyCrusader007]

I find it hard to accept the idea that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God.

Can anyone explain to me why I should accept this as true
and are there any Saints of the Catholic Church who accepted this teaching.

Was this believed before Vatican II?

There is this which relates to the topic at hand,
*
In 1219, in the midst of disastrous Fifth Crusade, Francis crossed enemy lines to gain an audience with al-Kamil, the sultan of Egypt and a nephew of the great Muslim warrior Saladin, in his camp on the banks of the Nile. Francis, who opposed the warfare, hoped to bring about peace by converting the sultan to Christianity. He didn’t succeed, but came away from the peaceful encounter with revolutionary ideas that called for Christians to live harmoniously with Muslims. *

saintandthesultan.com/about.html

 

[Eric_Hyom]

This is not a bad situation. Helping each other with daily tasks like shoveling snow or even caring for each other’s pets when needed. We evangelize by our actions more than with our words. Islam and Christianity.

I agree with you, but sometimes we seem to get our priorities wrong. If the greatest commandment was to go out and evangelise. then I think the church would be doing a good job. But the greatest commandments are to love God and our neighbours, which is shovelling snow or caring for their pets.

Like the Good Samaritan; I think helping others who seem to be in opposition to us; is very powerful.

 

[Bill_Martin]

The most important thing they could do is correct false beliefs that each side has about what the other believes and what each religion teaches. Nothing can improve until we’re each talking about the actual religion, and not an imaginary one created out of our own misunderstandings.

A lot of the comments here that demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of Islam show why such dialogue is necessary.

 

[pnewton]

I think we better jjust stick to ordinary everyday things. My Muslim neighbors help with shoveling snow and talk about our cats. Religion would be the last thing I would want to talk about.

This sort of outreach isn’t for all. I have had some great religious discussions with Muslims and Jews. The thing is, if the Holy Spirit puts it into the heart of the Pope, or of a bishop or group of bishops to engage in some sort of dialogue, it at least should be given the same credence I have when I take the time for such discussion, or that you and other should be given for not seeing this as something you are to do. Shoveling snow is also effective communication. Cats? Even better.

 

[pnewton]

Is it part of the Magisterium?

Lumen Gentium which quoted above is magisterial teaching, being a dogmatic constitution from Vatican II. However, if it makes you feel better, consider that part of the difficulty comes from the limitations imposed on us by language. “Same” is an vague adjective. There is no doubt that multiple Gods do not run the world. Even St. Paul equated the Greek worship of the “unknown god”, which was clearly pagan to the monotheistic God of Christianity. If one recognizes one Creator God, then that descriptions only fits one being. Yet in another way, the God of Islam is not the same in that He is seen as much difference. From God’s perspective, He is the same. From the perspective of the worship, there are considerable differences.

Another comparison is looking at three perspectives of God which are drastically different. The God of Abraham is the same God we worship today, though there is a huge gap as to how Abraham understood God, and we understand him. For a third perspective, think of how terribly little we know of God now “through a glass darkly” compared to what we will know of God in the beatific vision. We may well look back and think we did not know what we were doing as it seems the worship is so different. Yet it will still be the same God.