U.S. Catholicism: Decline and Fall

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JRPO said:
The church saw what was coming it had Vatican II.
What came was the Cultural Revolution of the1960s. Feminism and the destruction of family life.(don’t get me wrong women have a right to be paid equal treated equal etc)
Whats happend since then was rise in Divorce rise in use of contraception rise in Abortion the apparent freedom of women has turned out to be nothing more than the liberating of men at the cost of women and children.
A man can walk out and leave any time he wants. What use to hold families together doesn’t anymore.

It is the unity of families that will hold communities together that will then hold faiths together. I don’t think Father Corapi or any other Priest in the world will bring people back if they are trying to bring back broken and brittle families.

A famous philosopher once said:-

“When there is Unity in the Family there will be peace throughout the world.”

How do we reverse the destruction of the family.

I’m a Divorced Catholic. My wife who came from a broken home left me then she walked out on the kids.
I’m a single working Dad unable to be a Mother to my Children but just being the best Dad I can be. Its tough on the kids. I think they are victims of Bomb that hit society in the 60s.
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If you maintain your faith, keep your standards high, and always remember, “Never feel sorry for your children. Love them, give them what is within your reach and help them understand what you cannot give them. You are their Dad, not their friend or a fairy god-mother.”

I’m speaking from personal experience. Before I became a Franciscan, I was married and had three children. My wife and one son were killed. I raised a daughter and a son. My daughter was nine and son was four. Today they are adults. My daughter is a therapist and son is an artist They are happy, healthy and honest people.

It is a myth tha a single-parent home is a dysfunctional home. Dysfunctional is any home where there are no values, no expectations, no rules and the roles between the adults and the children are confusing.

As someone said in another post, the salvation of the world depends on the salvation of the family. Let us remember how Jesus and his parents related to each other. Joseph protected them. Imagine Mary when Joseph came in and told her to pack up, they were leaving for Egypt. But they went together, always trusting God.

Then we see the Holy Family again when Jesus is 12. Observe Mary’s behavior. She takes a very no-nonsense approach. She aks Jesus why he’s done what he’s done. She tells him the effects of his behavior. He’s worried them to death. Jesus reminds her that he must be about his Father’s business. But he submits to their authority and goes with them. The scriptures tell us that he grew in wisdom. His growth was the result of grace and parenting working together.

The scriptures show us Jesus and his mother again at the wedding at Cana. By this time, Jesus is an adult. Mary tells him about the wine. He asks her what any of this has to do with him. Observe that the scripture does not tell us that she explained anythign to him. She simply turned to the waiters and told them to do whatever Jesus said. Mary was not Jesus’ buddy. She was his mother. Like a good mother, she respected the fact that God had a plan for him. But she did not apologize for being a mother. She told him what she wanted and moved on. This is a functioning family.

A functioning family is one where God’s will and plans are respected and at the same time, parents do not apologize for being parents.`They do what they have to do according to God’s plan for them and their children. They do not ask permission or apologize to society or their children for doing what God has called them to do. What is it that God calls parents to do? He calls us to LEAD families.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
If you maintain your faith, keep your standards high, and always remember, “Never feel sorry for your children. Love them, give them what is within your reach and help them understand what you cannot give them. You are their Dad, not their friend or a fairy god-mother.”

I’m speaking from personal experience. Before I became a Franciscan, I was married and had three children. My wife and one son were killed. I raised a daughter and a son. My daughter was nine and son was four. Today they are adults. My daughter is a therapist and son is an artist They are happy, healthy and honest people.

It is a myth tha a single-parent home is a dysfunctional home. Dysfunctional is any home where there are no values, no expectations, no rules and the roles between the adults and the children are confusing.

As someone said in another post, the salvation of the world depends on the salvation of the family. Let us remember how Jesus and his parents related to each other. Joseph protected them. Imagine Mary when Joseph came in and told her to pack up, they were leaving for Egypt. But they went together, always trusting God.

Then we see the Holy Family again when Jesus is 12. Observe Mary’s behavior. She takes a very no-nonsense approach. She aks Jesus why he’s done what he’s done. She tells him the effects of his behavior. He’s worried them to death. Jesus reminds her that he must be about his Father’s business. But he submits to their authority and goes with them. The scriptures tell us that he grew in wisdom. His growth was the result of grace and parenting working together.

The scriptures show us Jesus and his mother again at the wedding at Cana. By this time, Jesus is an adult. Mary tells him about the wine. He asks her what any of this has to do with him. Observe that the scripture does not tell us that she explained anythign to him. She simply turned to the waiters and told them to do whatever Jesus said. Mary was not Jesus’ buddy. She was his mother. Like a good mother, she respected the fact that God had a plan for him. But she did not apologize for being a mother. She told him what she wanted and moved on. This is a functioning family.

A functioning family is one where God’s will and plans are respected and at the same time, parents do not apologize for being parents.`They do what they have to do according to God’s plan for them and their children. They do not ask permission or apologize to society or their children for doing what God has called them to do. What is it that God calls parents to do? He calls us to LEAD families.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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People being killed or dying does not have the same destructive effect on families as the destructive nature of Divorce.
 
JRPO said:
People being killed or dying does not have the same destructive effect on families as the destructive nature of Divorce.
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I understand that. Divorce is a violent tragedy upon a family, death is natural. But the role of a parent does not change. That’s the point.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JRPO said:
People being killed or dying does not have the same destructive effect on families as the destructive nature of Divorce.
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I"m keeping your family in my prayers, JR. Hang in there, that’s a tough one.
 
I see it as a matter of odds, or in mathematics, probabilities.

You can have happy single-parent families. But the odds are worse than with two parents. This is the truth screechingly denied by liberals.

Because you can point to this or that happy single-parent family it does not mean that all, or most, are, or can be, happy. It’s a logical fallacy. But it sure seems to comfort media-scribblers.

Odds for a happy family decrease if you have:

Sex before marriage;
Abortion;
Cohabit;
Get divorced;
No or little religion;
Fail to keep the commandments and avoid the seven deadly sins;
Fail to use the lifeline of the sacraments.

We live in a maelstrom of temptation in the 21st century. Our media is borderline insane, being allied to propagandising for self-indulgence and serving up stimulation while avoiding or contradicting ancient truths.

Cue ‘mid-life crises’ and ‘the children are taking it well’.

Then ‘the sins of the fathers are visited on the sons’, as they go on to have unhappy families themselves.

I’m quite sure divorce cuts the legs from under children.
 
JRPO said:
It is the unity of families that will hold communities together that will then hold faiths together. I don’t think Father Corapi or any other Priest in the world will bring people back if they are trying to bring back broken and brittle families.

A famous philosopher once said:-

“When there is Unity in the Family there will be peace throughout the world.”

How do we reverse the destruction of the family.

I’m a Divorced Catholic. My wife who came from a broken home left me then she walked out on the kids.
I’m a single working Dad unable to be a Mother to my Children but just being the best Dad I can be. Its tough on the kids. I think they are victims of Bomb that hit society in the 60s.
Click to expand...
I know that where you are at now is difficult and the path is long.

My dad left when I was two. He was a small B/W picure on the wall. Zero emotional support. Begrudged, haphazzard financial support. Like you, my Mom was THE BEST mom she could be with a minimum wage job. She loved my older sister and me completely and was steadfast in her faith and that faith came to us. We made it BECAUSE of her long determined sacrifice made possible by her Faith in God.

It took quite awhile, but I finally understood that while I did not have a dad, God was and is my father. Yes we grew up poor, but we got our education, careers, spouses 48 and 45 years ago and we’ve both come through the tough times in our own lives. The constant has been our Faith in God. I am grateful for my life and faith that I have because of my mother.

I hope your children will some day realize that Mary, the Mother of Jesus, is and has been their mother providing them her Son’s Wisdom they need WITH YOUR LOVE AND FAITH, to obtain the life you want for them.
 
Layman said:
I see it as a matter of odds, or in mathematics, probabilities.

You can have happy single-parent families. But the odds are worse than with two parents. This is the truth screechingly denied by liberals.

Because you can point to this or that happy single-parent family it does not mean that all, or most, are, or can be, happy. It’s a logical fallacy. But it sure seems to comfort media-scribblers.

Odds for a happy family decrease if you have:

Sex before marriage;
Abortion;
Cohabit;
Get divorced;
No or little religion;
Fail to keep the commandments and avoid the seven deadly sins;
Fail to use the lifeline of the sacraments.

We live in a maelstrom of temptation in the 21st century. Our media is borderline insane, being allied to propagandising for self-indulgence and serving up stimulation while avoiding or contradicting ancient truths.

Cue ‘mid-life crises’ and ‘the children are taking it well’.

Then ‘the sins of the fathers are visited on the sons’, as they go on to have unhappy families themselves.

I’m quite sure divorce cuts the legs from under children.
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Divorce cuts the legs out from under any human being. But as you have well said and I bolded your list, these are the issues that every family must face, whether it is led by one parent or both parents.

I don’t agree that every single parent family is headed for tragedy. As the poster previously said, there is a difference between divorce and death. I know more families led by a widowed parent that are very functional and very Catholic, than those that are dysfunctional. I believe that the pain of death is very different from the pain of divorce.

In Church history we have a wonderful list of women saints who were widows with children and not only raised their children well, but went on to do great things for God. Many founders of religious communities of women were widowed mothers. These women had many children. I know that Elizabeth Ann Seton had five, Louise de Marillac has five, Joaquina of Vedruna (foundress of the Carmelites of Charity) had five, Elizabeth of Hungary had two, Jane de Chantal has children too, but I don’t know how many. These women grace our altars as saints, religious and mothers.

History tells us that Augustine was a wonderful father. He’s an interesting character, because he has always been depicted as a scandrel of sorts. The truth is that he was an unbeliever and had a mistress, but he lived in a long-term relationship with her. They were never married, after he converted, because of differences in social classes. He loved her very much and she loved him. When they parted, she entered a monastery and Augustine kept his son. We are told that the boy was bright, emotionally very stable and had a very strong faith. Monica herself also finished raising her children alone, after the death of her husband.

We need to look to these saints as models for those who are raising children alone. My model was always Elizabeth Ann Seton. I developed a very special relationship with her. I guess in many ways we had some things in common. I too was a convert, at a much younger age than she was. I was a widower and I became a religious. In addition, I spent many years in the field of education too and she was an educator.

Through her intercession and example, I raised to fine children who are now two fine adults. They’re in their 20s, professional, hard working and very Catholic. I’m very proud of them and very thankful to Elizabeth Ann for her example and her prayers. I remember taking my children to visit her tomb as often as possible. We would pray there that Elizabeth Ann would intercede for us and help us to remain a closely knit Catholic family. Guess what! She did.

Let us not despair, but let us recover the veneration of some of our saints, because they have something to offer us by way of example and hope.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Christ informs the faithful through the Catechism of the Catholic Church that we, as his consecrated people, need to be ever vigilent and prepared. Through the Catechism we are informed that, “The Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real though imperfect”. It also states that this imperfection will lead to great tribulation, informing us that, “Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies Her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth”. To be living in these times should not lead to despair, but rather to hope because through the Catechism we are also told that, " He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more,neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away". Christ has promised to protect the Holy Church. It comes down to having faith in His word.
 
Excellent thread! Great posts discussing an important and overall crucial fact - the fact that the decline of traditional Catholic values has led to society’s ruin.

I take hope in the words of the Catechism that this is the period of trial the Church must endure before a new birth. The past five centuries, culminating in our modern times, have certainly appeared as just such a series of birthpangs, and I pray that our current crises will be followed by a spiritual renewal, and certainly not more degeneration.
 
My only concern here is warning everyone not to become too involved in thoughts about the end times or these being the final days, etc. Both Scripture and the Church teach us that no one knows the day nor the hour.

This is not the first crisis that the Church has endured. As to which is the worse crisis, that’s all a matter of perspective. Some would say that the first 400 years were much more critical than today. Others would say that the separation of East and West was. Then you have those who refer to the Dark Ages and others to the Protestant Reformation and so forth. The world goes through cycles as does man. So it is no surprise that the Church does too. After all, it’s made up of human beings who are part of the cycle.

I think that Vatican II recovered something that we had forgotten and we need to pay more attention to that than the end times. The Council Fathers reminded us that God has made a universal call to holiness and calls all men and women to the perfection of charity. The closer we get to holiness and perfect charity toward God and neighbor, the less we have to worry about a second coming tomorrow or in 1,000 years.

I am reminded of people like Mother Teresa who lived in the present moment. They responded to Christ as he called today, without too much concern about tomorrow. If we want to recover the world, we must learn from these great and holy men and women to depend on God, respond to his call in the present moment and let the future arrive on its terms.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
A previous poster mentions, “…worry about the second coming” in a way that somehow conveys a pessemism onto the core Christian principle of daily preparation and deep longing for the time of Christ’s return. If Jesus did not want us to be ever mindful of the signs of the times He would not have deigned to inform us of such things. The only people who should “worry” about the second coming of Christ are those who love this world too greatly.
 
unafraid said:
A previous poster mentions, “…worry about the second coming” in a way that somehow conveys a pessemism onto the core Christian principle of daily preparation and deep longing for the time of Christ’s return. If Jesus did not want us to be ever mindful of the signs of the times He would not have deigned to inform us of such things. The only people who should “worry” about the second coming of Christ are those who love this world too greatly.
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Many generations just knew that they were in the last times. If the Great East/West schism and the Protestant Reformation wasn’t this great apostacy, I do not think a deep in per capita attendance in America qualifies.
 
If you think a deep per capita attendence problem is the most grave concern facing the Roman Catholic Church in modern times, then your flippant analysis must console you. But it also qualifies you as someone in need of a far more penetrating analytical perception. Furthermore, in my noting a catechetical quote which speaks of grave “apostasy” there is no inference of specifity relative to an age or an event. I merely sought to shine a light on some dogma relating to the topic. If you wish to muddle your meaning, so be it: please do not muddle mine.
 
Lamentabili said:
podles.org/dialogue/us-catholicism-decline-and-fall-272.htm

U.S. Catholicism: Decline and Fall

…

Such a compromise with worldliness does not even maintain Catholic numbers. If the Catholic Church is so meaningless, why bother with it? Why get up on Sunday morning to hear third-rate music and intellectual pablum? If you take the Gospel seriously, you are more to end up in a conservative Protestant church which, for all its limitations, has not surrendered, on some key issues that affect daily life, to the world.
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When I read such gloom and doom I always think of Mark Twain’s comment:
“Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated!”

All kidding aside. We must remember that God is in control and the Catholic Church is not going to fade away – here, anywhere nor ever. Sure we need to do everything in our own feeble power to show forth the beauty of the Catholic Faith but remembering always, God knows where the Church is and She will always be going in the direction that God desires.

“Third rate music - intellectual pablum”

In my little mission church, our music is simple and our people are not the intelligentsia of the world but we take comfort in knowing that God love us anyway. He looks at the heart and soul and journey of each of His children.

May I suggest to you that you quit studying statistics because the Church is not a statistic and statistics say nothing about God’s Grace.
 
unafraid said:
If you think a deep per capita attendence problem is the most grave concern facing the Roman Catholic Church in modern times, then your flippant analysis must console you. But it also qualifies you as someone in need of a far more penetrating analytical perception.
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I did not insult you. I ask the same favor in return. There was nothing in my post that was flippant.

I am a Catholic of hope, as was our late pontiff. I do not think attendence drop is a grave concern, as per my post. Neither do I think the Church is in dark times. I see too many great things happening in the Church around me to have anything but hope.
 
JReducation said:
My only concern here is warning everyone not to become too involved in thoughts about the end times or these being the final days, etc. Both Scripture and the Church teach us that no one knows the day nor the hour.
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So very true; fretting about something we have no control over does no good.
 
People do not fret and worry about the future viability of their religion without cause. If there could be a more diabolical and sinister plan to undermine the authority of the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church than rampant and prolonged child molestation among its clergy, then apprise me of a worse scenario. My family remains in the Church through hope and faith alone in such times as these. And as far as invoking the name of Pope John Paul II , I must point out that he was a mystic who was devoted to Our Lady of Fatima, whose messages depict the wood of our Age as being anything but green. Many of us see the only hope for our Church, so transformed by shame, to continue into the future is through divine intervention and revelatory fulfillment. Hope is all that is left to us.
 
unafraid said:
People do not fret and worry about the future viability of their religion without cause. If there could be a more diabolical and sinister plan to undermine the authority of the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church than rampant and prolonged child molestation among its clergy, then apprise me of a worse scenario. My family remains in the Church through hope and faith alone in such times as these. And as far as invoking the name of Pope John Paul II , I must point out that he was a mystic who was devoted to Our Lady of Fatima, whose messages depict the wood of our Age as being anything but green. Many of us see the only hope for our Church, so transformed by shame, to continue into the future is through divine intervention and revelatory fulfillment. Hope is all that is left to us.
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I like what you said above. But I have to disagree with what I bolded. The child sexual abuse cases in the Church are neither new nor as rampant as the media wants to play them up to be. I just heard this tonight from Rayomond Arroyo. The number of cases involving Catholic priests is much smaller than the number of cases involving family members and ministers of other faithfs. The media has desire to bring Catholicism to its knees.

There are two things that have to be said here.
  1. Even one case of sexual abuse, by anyone, is one too many.
  2. Maybe the media is doing us a favor by trying to bring Catholicism to its knees. We certain need to spend more time in prayer.
Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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