U.S. Catholicism: Decline and Fall

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My only concern here is warning everyone not to become too involved in thoughts about the end times or these being the final days, etc. Both Scripture and the Church teach us that no one knows the day nor the hour.

. . . **The closer we get to holiness and perfect charity toward God and neighbor, the less we have to worry about a second coming tomorrow or in 1,000 years. **

I am reminded of people like Mother Teresa who lived in the present moment. They responded to Christ as he called today, without too much concern about tomorrow. If we want to recover the world, we must learn from these great and holy men and women to depend on God, respond to his call in the present moment and let the future arrive on its terms.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Some day, some how I will die and face God. It matters not whether my time ends on an individual basis or whether I experience the “end times.” I will not be held responsible for the sins of any other person, organization, government or society. But I will be responsible for what I did and did not do.

How did I love God?
How did I love neighbor?
How did I fail?
Was I sincere in asking forgiveness for my failures?
Did I try to do better even if progress was very slow?

It matters not my station in life, but rather whether I did my best to love with the abilities God gave me. It matters not whether others loved more or less than I did. I do not answer for them.

Other than Jesus and Mary, no one is perfect including those who run the Church. My standard cannot be: “Perfection or end of relationship.” Imperfect individuals and organizations, do accomplish much good in spite of failures. It does me no good at all to excuse myself from trying to follow the Church’s teachings because I can point to its failures, current, recent, ancient. As Brother said above, it does me much good to learn from the great and holy men and women.

It is important that I recognize my own shortcomings and ask for forgiveness and God’s help as compared to trying to justify why MY errors are actually right, at least for me. I know I cannot deceive God. To try is dumb. Very dumb.

If I live my life as I should: Acting out my love of God and neighbor as best I can, others will see that and be encouraged to make better efforts in their own lives.
 
Some day, some how I will die and face God. It matters not whether my time ends on an individual basis or whether I experience the “end times.” I will not be held responsible for the sins of any other person, organization, government or society. But I will be responsible for what I did and did not do.

How did I love God?
How did I love neighbor?
How did I fail?
Was I sincere in asking forgiveness for my failures?
Did I try to do better even if progress was very slow?

It matters not my station in life, but rather whether I did my best to love with the abilities God gave me. It matters not whether others loved more or less than I did. I do not answer for them.

Other than Jesus and Mary, no one is perfect including those who run the Church. My standard cannot be: “Perfection or end of relationship.” Imperfect individuals and organizations, do accomplish much good in spite of failures. It does me no good at all to excuse myself from trying to follow the Church’s teachings because I can point to its failures, current, recent, ancient. As Brother said above, it does me much good to learn from the great and holy men and women.

It is important that I recognize my own shortcomings and ask for forgiveness and God’s help as compared to trying to justify why MY errors are actually right, at least for me. I know I cannot deceive God. To try is dumb. Very dumb.

If I live my life as I should: Acting out my love of God and neighbor as best I can, others will see that and be encouraged to make better efforts in their own lives.
As Mother Teresa said, “God does not call us to be successful. He calls us to be faithful.” We shall be judged on our fidelity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I believe all of the major organized religions are on the decline. My Jewish friend was telling me how more and more Jews are recognizing themselves as secular Jews.
 
I believe all of the major organized religions are on the decline. My Jewish friend was telling me how more and more Jews are recognizing themselves as secular Jews.
Your friend is correct on one score. Secularism is certainly eating away at the many people of faith, turning them from people of faith into secular people with a faith adjective in front of their name.

That being said, there is no threat to the Catholic Church. As long as there is a pope, even if he were the last Catholic, there is a Catholic Church. Jesus promised that the Church would be built on the faith of Peter and the gates of hell would never prevail against him. Therefore, there is no danger of the Catholic Church disappearing. The worse that can happen is that the number will fall for a while and will rise again. We have seen this cycle over the past 2000 years.

Let us not lose hope. Let us walk with a smile knowing that we will always have a Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
BR. JR., you are a wise poster, and the solidity of your posts are very Petrine. Please comment on the confusion that I have regarding these times of trial for the Church. I am the father of two children, and at night, after prayers, my wife and I look upon their angelic faces and we express to one another an insecurity regarding their future…directly relative to the declining state of the Roman Catholic Church. Both my wife and I have endured hardships in our lives, and have overcome them by God’s grace alone. My question is thus: “Did not Jesus endure the full measure of pain for us during the Passion, and if so, then why must He be scourged and pilloried again in our current age”. From myriad sources Our Lord is spat upon, mocked, and blasphemed in these days. Answer me this, “How long must our Lord endure the Stations of the Cross?” I thought He said, “It is finished”. When will it be enough?
 
BR. JR., you are a wise poster, and the solidity of your posts are very Petrine. Please comment on the confusion that I have regarding these times of trial for the Church. I am the father of two children, and at night, after prayers, my wife and I look upon their angelic faces and we express to one another an insecurity regarding their future…directly relative to the declining state of the Roman Catholic Church. Both my wife and I have endured hardships in our lives, and have overcome them by God’s grace alone. My question is thus: “Did not Jesus endure the full measure of pain for us during the Passion, and if so, then why must He be scourged and pilloried again in our current age”. From myriad sources Our Lord is spat upon, mocked, and blasphemed in these days. Answer me this, “How long must our Lord endure the Stations of the Cross?” I thought He said, “It is finished”. When will it be enough?
Your question is such a wonderful question. There is a very rich theological answer that I shall try to summarize in a few sentences. If you want to read the full answer I would suggest that you read The Soul’s Journey into God by St. Bonaventure.

It is true that Jesus did say, “It is finished.” What he is referring to is his act of redemptive suffering is now complete. The sacrifice is complete and redemption has been granted. Now, there is a nuance that must be carefully understood here. St. Bonaventure explains that during those three hours of Christ’s suffering he embraces all the sufferings of his Mystical Body from all time. In other words, Jesus suffering on the cross extended into the past and the future. This means that there was more to come, but no further act of sacrifice was necessary. Jesus had embraced and undertaken, in his own person in that moment in time, all the suffering of his Mystical Body: past, present and to come. Jesus’ sacrifice is timeless. What we see today was already foreseen by the Father and assumed by the Son on the cross at Calvary.

From a Divine perspective, Jesus is not suffering or being injured by our sins today. It is over. Those sins were covered on the cross. There is no way that we can make Jesus suffer. We can make human beings suffer, but not Jesus. That being said, when we make human beings suffer, when we commit other sins, we are contributing to the suffering of the cross on Calvary. Our sins today, contribute to the intensity of Jesus suffering 2,000 years ago.

Bonaventure, from his very Franciscan perspective and Augustinian roots, would encourage you not to worry about a decline in the Church. The Church, like her master, cannot suffer. Like her master, the Church cannot be destroyed. The Church is built upon the Resurrection of Christ. She is grounded in the glorified Christ. Therefore, she can no more die than he can. Individuals are not the Church. Together we form the Church. But the Church transcends even us. The Church, as the Mystical Body of Christ, is the communion of saints with their head, Jesus Christ. We form part of the communion. We are one with the saints and with the Head. There will always be a Church and she will always be holly, because she is the Body of Christ and the means through which grace is imparted upon the world.

Bonaventure and the Franciscan school of theology would tell you that God, in his mercy cannot allow the Church to collapse or decline in any way. Men and women in the Church can sin, can fall into apostasy and heresy, but there will always be a Church. It’s not going anywhere. Our Holy Father Francis put it this way, “God loved humanity so much that he gave it to his son as a gift; therefore, the Son is invested with human nature, not because humanity is evil, but because it is holy in God’s eyes. God who is holy and the source of all holiness, would not invest his son with humanity, if humanity were not holy.

It is sin that is evil, not man. It is against the nature of God to take on human nature and become the God-Man, were man evil. The proof of this lies in the Immaculate Conception. John Duns Scotus, another great and holy Franciscan theologian said that God could not be tainted by original sin. Therefore, God created for his Son a mother who was redeemed before she was created. While in the womb, Jesus does not come into contact with sin, but only with humanity made holy. Through is incarnation as a man, he raises the state of humanity to a state of holiness. Therefore, the sins of humanity do not take way from the holiness of man. They deprive the soul of sanctifying grace, but they do not take anything away from human dignity. Man’s dignity has been restored, through the incarnation of Jesus. Scotus looked at Mary’s Immaculate Conception as the sign of God’s ability to rescue man.

To conclude, we must fear sin, but never fear a decline in the Church. There may be a decline in human morals, but there cannot be a loss of the Church. She will always be with us and she will always be holy. She will cease to exist when she has fulfilled her mission, which won’t be until Christ comes again in the final judgment.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Your question is such a wonderful question. There is a very rich theological answer that I shall try to summarize in a few sentences. If you want to read the full answer I would suggest that you read The Soul’s Journey into God by St. Bonaventure.

It is true that Jesus did say, “It is finished.” What he is referring to is his act of redemptive suffering is now complete. The sacrifice is complete and redemption has been granted. Now, there is a nuance that must be carefully understood here. St. Bonaventure explains that during those three hours of Christ’s suffering he embraces all the sufferings of his Mystical Body from all time. In other words, Jesus suffering on the cross extended into the past and the future. This means that there was more to come, but no further act of sacrifice was necessary. Jesus had embraced and undertaken, in his own person in that moment in time, all the suffering of his Mystical Body: past, present and to come. Jesus’ sacrifice is timeless. What we see today was already foreseen by the Father and assumed by the Son on the cross at Calvary.

From a Divine perspective, Jesus is not suffering or being injured by our sins today. It is over. Those sins were covered on the cross. There is no way that we can make Jesus suffer. We can make human beings suffer, but not Jesus. That being said, when we make human beings suffer, when we commit other sins, we are contributing to the suffering of the cross on Calvary. Our sins today, contribute to the intensity of Jesus suffering 2,000 years ago.

Bonaventure, from his very Franciscan perspective and Augustinian roots, would encourage you not to worry about a decline in the Church. The Church, like her master, cannot suffer. Like her master, the Church cannot be destroyed. The Church is built upon the Resurrection of Christ. She is grounded in the glorified Christ. Therefore, she can no more die than he can. Individuals are not the Church. Together we form the Church. But the Church transcends even us. The Church, as the Mystical Body of Christ, is the communion of saints with their head, Jesus Christ. We form part of the communion. We are one with the saints and with the Head. There will always be a Church and she will always be holly, because she is the Body of Christ and the means through which grace is imparted upon the world.

Bonaventure and the Franciscan school of theology would tell you that God, in his mercy cannot allow the Church to collapse or decline in any way. Men and women in the Church can sin, can fall into apostasy and heresy, but there will always be a Church. It’s not going anywhere. Our Holy Father Francis put it this way, “God loved humanity so much that he gave it to his son as a gift; therefore, the Son is invested with human nature, not because humanity is evil, but because it is holy in God’s eyes. God who is holy and the source of all holiness, would not invest his son with humanity, if humanity were not holy.

It is sin that is evil, not man. It is against the nature of God to take on human nature and become the God-Man, were man evil. The proof of this lies in the Immaculate Conception. John Duns Scotus, another great and holy Franciscan theologian said that God could not be tainted by original sin. Therefore, God created for his Son a mother who was redeemed before she was created. While in the womb, Jesus does not come into contact with sin, but only with humanity made holy. Through is incarnation as a man, he raises the state of humanity to a state of holiness. Therefore, the sins of humanity do not take way from the holiness of man. They deprive the soul of sanctifying grace, but they do not take anything away from human dignity. Man’s dignity has been restored, through the incarnation of Jesus. Scotus looked at Mary’s Immaculate Conception as the sign of God’s ability to rescue man.

To conclude, we must fear sin, but never fear a decline in the Church. There may be a decline in human morals, but there cannot be a loss of the Church. She will always be with us and she will always be holy. She will cease to exist when she has fulfilled her mission, which won’t be until Christ comes again in the final judgment.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Beautiful post Brother, and a fitting last word to this thread.
I read Bonaventure while still a Baptist. And was one of works I cite that led me back to the Church. Part of the problem in Protestant circles is they are locked into the age they are currently in. Bonaventure introduced me to the Church of eternity, which knows no decline or fall. If I keep my eyes on public Catholics who contridict the Church, or disobediant clergy, I just remember St. Bonaventure or St. Francis of Assisi.
They belonged to the Church of all ages.
 
Your question is such a wonderful question. There is a very rich theological answer that I shall try to summarize in a few sentences. If you want to read the full answer I would suggest that you read The Soul’s Journey into God by St. Bonaventure.

It is true that Jesus did say, “It is finished.” What he is referring to is his act of redemptive suffering is now complete. The sacrifice is complete and redemption has been granted. Now, there is a nuance that must be carefully understood here. St. Bonaventure explains that during those three hours of Christ’s suffering he embraces all the sufferings of his Mystical Body from all time. In other words, Jesus suffering on the cross extended into the past and the future. This means that there was more to come, but no further act of sacrifice was necessary. Jesus had embraced and undertaken, in his own person in that moment in time, all the suffering of his Mystical Body: past, present and to come. Jesus’ sacrifice is timeless. What we see today was already foreseen by the Father and assumed by the Son on the cross at Calvary.

From a Divine perspective, Jesus is not suffering or being injured by our sins today. It is over. Those sins were covered on the cross. There is no way that we can make Jesus suffer. We can make human beings suffer, but not Jesus. That being said, when we make human beings suffer, when we commit other sins, we are contributing to the suffering of the cross on Calvary. Our sins today, contribute to the intensity of Jesus suffering 2,000 years ago.

Bonaventure, from his very Franciscan perspective and Augustinian roots, would encourage you not to worry about a decline in the Church. The Church, like her master, cannot suffer. Like her master, the Church cannot be destroyed. The Church is built upon the Resurrection of Christ. She is grounded in the glorified Christ. Therefore, she can no more die than he can. Individuals are not the Church. Together we form the Church. But the Church transcends even us. The Church, as the Mystical Body of Christ, is the communion of saints with their head, Jesus Christ. We form part of the communion. We are one with the saints and with the Head. There will always be a Church and she will always be holly, because she is the Body of Christ and the means through which grace is imparted upon the world.

Bonaventure and the Franciscan school of theology would tell you that God, in his mercy cannot allow the Church to collapse or decline in any way. Men and women in the Church can sin, can fall into apostasy and heresy, but there will always be a Church. It’s not going anywhere. Our Holy Father Francis put it this way, “God loved humanity so much that he gave it to his son as a gift; therefore, the Son is invested with human nature, not because humanity is evil, but because it is holy in God’s eyes. God who is holy and the source of all holiness, would not invest his son with humanity, if humanity were not holy.

It is sin that is evil, not man. It is against the nature of God to take on human nature and become the God-Man, were man evil. The proof of this lies in the Immaculate Conception. John Duns Scotus, another great and holy Franciscan theologian said that God could not be tainted by original sin. Therefore, God created for his Son a mother who was redeemed before she was created. While in the womb, Jesus does not come into contact with sin, but only with humanity made holy. Through is incarnation as a man, he raises the state of humanity to a state of holiness. Therefore, the sins of humanity do not take way from the holiness of man. They deprive the soul of sanctifying grace, but they do not take anything away from human dignity. Man’s dignity has been restored, through the incarnation of Jesus. Scotus looked at Mary’s Immaculate Conception as the sign of God’s ability to rescue man.

To conclude, we must fear sin, but never fear a decline in the Church. There may be a decline in human morals, but there cannot be a loss of the Church. She will always be with us and she will always be holy. She will cease to exist when she has fulfilled her mission, which won’t be until Christ comes again in the final judgment.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
What a marvelous post. Thanks for making this so undertandable and clear to an old revert.
 
Br JR

In the meantime how many abortions will take place how many marriges just get left to the secular world and its ways (i.e contraception, sex lives with no morality) how many Divorces will take place how many Prospectve Catholics will never have the chance to discover faith. Meanwhile Mental illness is on the rise, obesity is on the rise and probably a thousand and one other ailments all the fallout of broken families.

Meanwhile we have this stick your head in the sand approach - The church will survive everything will be OK - while millions of souls suffer.

Maybe people like Father Corapi are saying its time to do something.
 
Br JR

In the meantime how many abortions will take place how many marriges just get left to the secular world and its ways (i.e contraception, sex lives with no morality) how many Divorces will take place how many Prospectve Catholics will never have the chance to discover faith. Meanwhile Mental illness is on the rise, obesity is on the rise and probably a thousand and one other ailments all the fallout of broken families.

Meanwhile we have this stick your head in the sand approach - The church will survive everything will be OK - while millions of souls suffer.

Maybe people like Father Corapi are saying its time to do something.
Sticking your head in the sand is not what I’m saying. What I’m saing is that we take a more positive approach to the Church. We do what we are called to do by the Church and we trust that God will do his part.

Do you know what I do for ministry? Check out this link. www.franciscansoflife.org

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Br JR

In the meantime how many abortions will take place how many marriges just get left to the secular world and its ways (i.e contraception, sex lives with no morality) how many Divorces will take place how many Prospectve Catholics will never have the chance to discover faith. Meanwhile Mental illness is on the rise, obesity is on the rise and probably a thousand and one other ailments all the fallout of broken families.

Meanwhile we have this stick your head in the sand approach - The church will survive everything will be OK - while millions of souls suffer.

Maybe people like Father Corapi are saying its time to do something.
An old saying: It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness. I agree with you, JRPO, that we live in a rather dark world of self-centered sin which is the opposite of the LOVE that Christ wants us to have and use. Are we a candle to others?

Each of us has different circumstances and abilities. Christ expects us to do the best we can, where we are at and with the talent He has given us. For some, it is just taking care of the themselves. For most it is taking care of their families, with or without a spouse. I’m a son of a single mom who made it BECAUSE of her steadfast faith in Christ that she instilled in me.

When we maintian our faith and display a positive attitude, we have hope that leads to charity - love of family and others. We already love God because we have faith. The way we conduct and express ourselves in faith, hope, and charity sets the example for our children and for those who know us.

We are called to remain positive - faith, hope, and love regardless of the difficulity in our personal lives and in the face of the difficulties in our society you mention. IF we have the energy we can and should do what we can to battle against the darkness you mentioned, as Father Corapi and others are calling us to do. I do believe that the Catholic Church is, always has, and always will fight the good fight for a better spiritual life for all and a better temporal life for the poor.

It helps me to stop and take time to actually list what is going right in my life, my Church, and my society and the world. What is going better than awhile back and what are the next steps I CAN TAKE to move right down the field.

Finally I remember that Christ, the perfect, sinless Son of God suffered greatly for the all the sins of mankind. We are called to be Christ like. I try to offer up my sufferings and worries (raising a family as as single parent in a rather dark world is a long challenge indeed) as my small way in trying to identify with Christ’s life of service to others. Whether we realize it or not, Christ is with us in our suffering.
 
An old saying: It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness. I agree with you, JRPO, that we live in a rather dark world of self-centered sin which is the opposite of the LOVE that Christ wants us to have and use. Are we a candle to others?

Each of us has different circumstances and abilities. Christ expects us to do the best we can, where we are at and with the talent He has given us. For some, it is just taking care of the themselves. For most it is taking care of their families, with or without a spouse. I’m a son of a single mom who made it BECAUSE of her steadfast faith in Christ that she instilled in me.

When we maintian our faith and display a positive attitude, we have hope that leads to charity - love of family and others. We already love God because we have faith. The way we conduct and express ourselves in faith, hope, and charity sets the example for our children and for those who know us.

We are called to remain positive - faith, hope, and love regardless of the difficulity in our personal lives and in the face of the difficulties in our society you mention. IF we have the energy we can and should do what we can to battle against the darkness you mentioned, as Father Corapi and others are calling us to do. I do believe that the Catholic Church is, always has, and always will fight the good fight for a better spiritual life for all and a better temporal life for the poor.

It helps me to stop and take time to actually list what is going right in my life, my Church, and my society and the world. What is going better than awhile back and what are the next steps I CAN TAKE to move right down the field.

Finally I remember that Christ, the perfect, sinless Son of God suffered greatly for the all the sins of mankind. We are called to be Christ like. I try to offer up my sufferings and worries (raising a family as as single parent in a rather dark world is a long challenge indeed) as my small way in trying to identify with Christ’s life of service to others. Whether we realize it or not, Christ is with us in our suffering.
Gratefulfred, Brother JR
A priest one told me a story. Each and everyone of us is a snowflake. The snowflake of Gratefulfred falls on the branch of a tree then Br JR snowflake falls on that branch JRPO snowflake falls on that branch and Fr Corapi snow flake falls on that branch the firm branch holds strong until the One Billion th snow flake falls on the branch and then the branch breaks and falls to the ground.
I think we are not going to move the branch if we just take the approach that everythings going to be ok. The church will survive. Faith hope and love etc.Then the snowflakes float around land where they like and 4 snowflakes remain on the branch.
Father Corapi says lets get these snowflakes together they all gotta land on this branch.
 
Gratefulfred, Brother JR
A priest one told me a story. Each and everyone of us is a snowflake. The snowflake of Gratefulfred falls on the branch of a tree then Br JR snowflake falls on that branch JRPO snowflake falls on that branch and Fr Corapi snow flake falls on that branch the firm branch holds strong until the One Billion th snow flake falls on the branch and then the branch breaks and falls to the ground.
I think we are not going to move the branch if we just take the approach that everythings going to be ok. The church will survive. Faith hope and love etc.Then the snowflakes float around land where they like and 4 snowflakes remain on the branch.
Father Corapi says lets get these snowflakes together they all gotta land on this branch.
The Gospel of Life is the great snowfall that has to land on the entire tree.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
One thing that I have noticed is that the re-distribution of Catholics has affected the numbers. When I was a kid (very very long ago), people lived either on farms or in cities. Suburbs existed, but not on the scale of today. People living in urban areas tended to crowd together by culture. Of course culture included religion. I’m not an athropologist, but I would imagine that living in the same apartment building with 25 other families of your faith (usually Catholic, Protestant or Jewish), you felt pulled along and part of a community or family, almost like the Ricardos and the Mertzes.

Then came the Dick VanDycke and Cleaver families, the suburban family. These families were not as attached to their neighbors and more attached to their colleagues and friends from other faiths, cultures and values. As Catholics left the cities and moved into the suburbs, they also left the tightly knit Catholic ghettos in which they lived and which played such an important part in their lives.
That is an excellent analysis. I think these are very important points that are often overlooked. The breakdown of Catholic neighborhoods had a powerful effect.
I believe that many more Catholics have drifted away because of a lack of community life, than because the Church made changes. There are always changes in the making through the history of the Church. And someone always gets upset and leaves. Sometimes they leave in groups or herds. That is not new to this period in history. What we have to look for is what is new to history? The displacement and depersonification of daily life among the middle and upper social economic classes is new. In history, merchant classes bonded, the nobility bonded and each group bonded for political, economic and other kinds of support. But withour realizing it, they also supported and encouraged each other’s faith. Those bonds are not there today … We have to build up community. Parishes need to generate more activities that brings people together as a neighborhood of Catholics. I have seen it happen, but it requires a lot of work on the part of many people.
As above – I agree and this is very helpful to consider. While I think the post-Vatican II changes caused alienation and a loss of faith, there were other important factors that caused secularization to spread.
 
The Gospel of Life is the great snowfall that has to land on the entire tree.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
But isn’t Father Corapi saying that that is just not happening. 20% of Catholics are in America go to church in Europe its even less. Its less here in Australia too.
The snow storm is blocked and we’re a little apathetic about letting the snow storm free
 
But isn’t Father Corapi saying that that is just not happening. 20% of Catholics are in America go to church in Europe its even less. Its less here in Australia too.
The snow storm is blocked and we’re a little apathetic about letting the snow storm free
I think we’re suffering from PMS – Peter’s Material Syndrome. We’re looking at the storm and not Christ.

MonFrere
 
But isn’t Father Corapi saying that that is just not happening. 20% of Catholics are in America go to church in Europe its even less. Its less here in Australia too.
The snow storm is blocked and we’re a little apathetic about letting the snow storm free
With all due respect to Fr. Corapi, because I do like him a lot as a person, I don’t always agree with him on certain points. One of those that we disagree on is what I perceive as a very negative vision of Catholics. I’m not sure I can actually explain it; but I’ll try.

Sometimes I feel that his vision of Catholics is pessimistic. I think that’s what I’m trying to say. And yet, I don’t think that he’s a pessimist. I’ve seen him in interviews, when he’s not preaching. He’s much more relaxed and his statements about humanity are very hopeful and he has a joy about him that does not always come across when he’s preaching. I’ve often wondered if his audience really gets what he has to offer. He’s not a touch cookie, as he appears in his preaching. He’s very gentle and very funny. He does believe in the posibilities for humanity. In other words, in his interviews he does not come across as one who believes that humanity is lost and doomed. He comes across as a man who truly believes that humanity is good at the core.

I too beleive that most Catholics are good people, for that matter, most human beings are good people. I have a lot of hope for humanity. I believe that we’re going through a very rough period in human history and that we’re not addressing the spiritual needs of people. But people do want to find God.

Perhaps this is why people run to all kinds of crazy fads within the Church and beyond the Church. As Paul and Augustine would say, the unknown God for whom they are looking is right in front of them; they can’t see him and we’re not doing what needs to be done to help them. I think we’re trying; but what we’re trying is not working. We Catholics have a bad habit, if you can call it a bad habit. We try to be too cautious all the time. Everything has to be planned, predictable, organized, and not much left to God. It’s almost as if we have to make sure that we’re in control all the time.

One of the qualities that drew me into the study of the mystics was their uncanny spontaneity. God pointed to something and they jumped over the cliff, totally confident in God’s care and providence. We have to learn to trust in God’s love and providence again. Maybe this is what modern man is looking for and we, Catholcis, are not providing it. We’re not providing good spirituality. What made the mystics holy was their ability to see God in all things, even when the rest of the world saw only the dark side. They saw sin, human weakness, even natural events as opportunities to discover God. They used them to preach and teach. But they did not preach and teach messages of gloom and doom. Instead, they preached how to find God.

One of the best works on this very topic was written by Teresa of Avila, The Way of Perfection. It’s very positive. She’s not focussing on human weakness. She assumes that we all know this and that we have experienced to some degree. She focusses on God’s invitation to man to be holy. She lays out a road map for man to follow in response to God’s call. Maybe that’s what we need to do for people today, what Teresa did for people in her time. We need to give people road maps to holiness.

These are just random thoughts of mine. They may be all wrong. But I don’t think so.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I hope I am not derailing this discussion, but this phrase caught my attention and I wanted to offer some thoughts on it. Please feel free to reject them if they aren’t in accord with the topic at hand:
Sometimes I feel that his vision of Catholics is pessimistic.
There are many faithful Catholics who see a problem in the Church when we read statistics like some low percentage actually attend Mass, a high percentage contracept, etc. We ask ourselves how we can “fix” it, and many times we look first at pointing a finger at what caused it. The common point of the finger pointing seems to be Vatican II, even though that council didn’t exist in a vacuum. If, as some hold, the 1963 Catholic Church was stoic, faithful, and well catechized, then how do you explain as much change as did happen within only a few years if all the players on the field at the start were such staunch Catholics? And if they weren’t such staunch Catholics, when did they lose that staunchness; suddenly in 1964, or gradually over the late 40’s, 50’s, and early 60’s?

I lived though those changes and I saw them anxiously embraced by most, clergy included. This nixes the notion that it was a handful of liberal theologians waiting in the wings for vague council documents upon which they could pounce. I’ve never met a Pastor, personally, who would make radical pastoral changes in his parish on the words of a few theologians writing opinion articles while never consulting his Bishop.

Back to today - we have had a large change in our culture over the last 50 years where things like expediency and bottom line price take precedence over a long-term goal. We can see this in secular education, where instead of teaching kids to think, we teach them to remember facts. Many years ago when I first received some technical training, we were taught the basic principles of electronics, how test equipment worked, then turned loose to find and fix the problems. We relied on a broad-based understanding of electical principles to decide what wasn’t working. Not so today. Today all that is passed by as too cumbersome and expensive, substituting in it’s place a problem/solution list. Problem is, if the problem isn’t listed, only few have the skills to get in there and figure it out. This is the same with other aspects of education; unless they’ve seen it before, they are lost.

As it applies to faith, we HAD a culture in Catholicism that front-loaded us full of catechism - that broad-based knowledge with which we could figure out what was right and wrong. I can remember when one of my early CCD teachers, a nun, called my mother at home because I hadn’t learned over the previous week to memorize the corporal works of mercy. She (and my mother) made a very big deal over the fact I didn’t remember burying the dead. Imagine something like that happening today? What would you do if you got that phone call?

The fact is, people learn differently today than they did in 1960. In many ways, the current way is easier, because it doesn’t take sitting and memorizing many things you don’t have immediate, clear need for. So our culture has adapted to this mode. We see it in the workplace, where training is based on a response to some present situation, or just enough to give employees a limited set of skills to do a particular task. We see it in our churches and how people practice their faith using this same kind of educational model. Why learn anything about indulgences if I’m not getting one at Mass today? That seems to be the mindset of the ones I myself encounter, and I’m not sure if that represents most or even many.

What I get from all this is that we seem to want those in this mode to suddenly snap out of it into a different mode without some compelling reason for them to do so. That is what is lacking. They don’t see any need to, and we are not giving it to them.

My neighbor and good friend is a New Thought minister, and he likes to tell me all the time about how many former Catholics have joined his “church.” Like New Age, New Thought puts emphasis on Jungian psychological principles and emphasizes the ego in place of the Trinity. It’s anything BUT a long list of doctrines and documents in Latin that even the experts argue over. In fact, they have no doctrines other than Catholic doctrines are excessive and useless. Sin? They don’t see any, so no hassles there, it’s just simple mistakes. Now why, we should ask, do Catholics see that as having a strong pull, and our existing Church as being repellent?

We can point to behaviors, summarizing that if people choose to practice a sinful life full of adultery, contraception, divorce, etc., this at least offers them something. But what of those who don’t practice those and are yet drawn away? What is it about Catholicism that makes it so hard? How much does, say, peer criticism come into play? If one joined a bowling team and was constantly criticized about their bowling, how long would they stick around before thinking, “Well, there is that other league across town…”

Charity has to come into the forefront of play here if we ever expect to stop this leak and for people to recognize the value of this faith. I don’t think it’s healthy to have a large group who, for example (and they aren’t the only example), consider Catholics who practice their faith in accordance with the rules given by their Bishops and Clergy in attending an OF Mass as some kind of defective subspecies of Catholic steeped in heresy. They don’t decide how to conduct liturgy, their religious leaders do, so if they follow those leaders, what then are they? Bound for hell?

We really need to think about these things and how they apply to different people’s perspectives if we hope to be ONE Church.
 
I hope I am not derailing this discussion, but this phrase caught my attention and I wanted to offer some thoughts on it. Please feel free to reject them if they aren’t in accord with the topic at hand:
Sometimes I feel that his vision of Catholics is pessimistic.
There are many faithful Catholics who see a problem in the Church when we read statistics like some low percentage actually attend Mass, a high percentage contracept, etc. We ask ourselves how we can “fix” it, and many times we look first at pointing a finger at what caused it. The common point of the finger pointing seems to be Vatican II, even though that council didn’t exist in a vacuum. If, as some hold, the 1963 Catholic Church was stoic, faithful, and well catechized, then how do you explain as much change as did happen within only a few years if all the players on the field at the start were such staunch Catholics? And if they weren’t such staunch Catholics, when did they lose that staunchness; suddenly in 1964, or gradually over the late 40’s, 50’s, and early 60’s?

I lived though those changes and I saw them anxiously embraced by most, clergy included. This nixes the notion that it was a handful of liberal theologians waiting in the wings for vague council documents upon which they could pounce. I’ve never met a Pastor, personally, who would make radical pastoral changes in his parish on the words of a few theologians writing opinion articles while never consulting his Bishop.

Back to today - we have had a large change in our culture over the last 50 years where things like expediency and bottom line price take precedence over a long-term goal. We can see this in secular education, where instead of teaching kids to think, we teach them to remember facts. Many years ago when I first received some technical training, we were taught the basic principles of electronics, how test equipment worked, then turned loose to find and fix the problems. We relied on a broad-based understanding of electical principles to decide what wasn’t working. Not so today. Today all that is passed by as too cumbersome and expensive, substituting in it’s place a problem/solution list. Problem is, if the problem isn’t listed, only few have the skills to get in there and figure it out. This is the same with other aspects of education; unless they’ve seen it before, they are lost.

As it applies to faith, we HAD a culture in Catholicism that front-loaded us full of catechism - that broad-based knowledge with which we could figure out what was right and wrong. I can remember when one of my early CCD teachers, a nun, called my mother at home because I hadn’t learned over the previous week to memorize the corporal works of mercy. She (and my mother) made a very big deal over the fact I didn’t remember burying the dead. Imagine something like that happening today? What would you do if you got that phone call?

The fact is, people learn differently today than they did in 1960. In many ways, the current way is easier, because it doesn’t take sitting and memorizing many things you don’t have immediate, clear need for. So our culture has adapted to this mode. We see it in our churches and how people practice their faith using this same kind of educational model. Why learn anything about indulgences if I’m not getting one at Mass today? That seems to be the mindset of the ones I myself encounter, and I’m not sure if that represents most or even many.

What I get from all this is that we seem to want those in this mode to suddenly snap out of it into a different mode without some compelling reason for them to do so. That is what is lacking. They don’t see any need to, and we are not giving it to them.

My neighbor and good friend is a New Thought minister, and he likes to tell me all the time about how many former Catholics have joined his “church.” Like New Age, New Thought puts emphasis on Jungian psychological principles and emphasizes the ego in place of the Trinity. It’s anything BUT a long list of doctrines and documents in Latin that even the experts argue over. In fact, they have no doctrines other than Catholic doctrines are excessive and useless. Sin? They don’t see any, so no hassles there, it’s just simple mistakes. Now why, we should ask, do Catholics see that as having a strong pull, and our existing Church as being repellent?

We can point to behaviors, summarizing that if people choose to practice a sinful life full of adultery, contraception, divorce, etc., this at least offers them something. But what of those who don’t practice those and are yet drawn away? What is it about Catholicism that makes it so hard? How much does, say, peer criticism come into play? If one joined a bowling team and was constantly criticized about their bowling, how long would they stick around before thinking, “Well, there is that other league across town…”

Charity has to come into the forefront of play here if we ever expect to stop this leak and for people to recognize the value of this faith. I don’t think it’s healthy to have a large group who, for example (and they aren’t the only example), consider Catholics who practice their faith in accordance with the rules given by their Bishops and Clergy in attending an OF Mass as some kind of defective subspecies of Catholic steeped in heresy. They don’t decide how to conduct liturgy, their religious leaders do, so if they follow those leaders, what then are they? Bound for hell?

We really need to think about these things and how they apply to different people’s perspectives if we hope to be ONE Church.
 
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