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U.S. Courts allow sex abuse cases against Vatican to proceed in rare legal move [WaPo]
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curlycool89
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There are so many legal wrongs there I don’t know what to say. They want to sue a foreign entity that is not covered nor has consented to American law. We mine as well sue the government of the PRC for violating American legislated human rights laws (and you could make quite the case for that, but no one seems eager to do that).
It must be at least partially due to lack of understanding. The Church is not some multi-national corporation that is headquartered in a foreign country and has shops in the US. Each Diocese is separate and independent, but remains Catholic by being headed by a Bishop who is in communion with the See of Rome. The other part is the large hatedom encircling the Church right now.
It must be at least partially due to lack of understanding. The Church is not some multi-national corporation that is headquartered in a foreign country and has shops in the US. Each Diocese is separate and independent, but remains Catholic by being headed by a Bishop who is in communion with the See of Rome. The other part is the large hatedom encircling the Church right now.
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rskempf
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This is like a high-noon showdown. We have the Vatican on one end of the street. On the other, it’s adversary - absolute evil.
This is a case where proponents of abortion, contraception, etc., are trying desparately to discredit the single world-stage institution standing against these causes. Earlier this week, the New York Times, a known enemy of the church, implicated the vatican in sex-abuse cases in Germany when Pope Benedict XVI was a bishop in the area. George Weigel, on Relevant Radio, made the significant point, the references cited by the NYT were not independent by any means. Each contributor had a stake in seeing the vatican smeared.
This story, and the case against the Vatican, will continue for a long time. In fact it may never really end till the return of Christ.
It is up to us to seek truth, lead others to truth, and pray for an end to all of this.
This is a case where proponents of abortion, contraception, etc., are trying desparately to discredit the single world-stage institution standing against these causes. Earlier this week, the New York Times, a known enemy of the church, implicated the vatican in sex-abuse cases in Germany when Pope Benedict XVI was a bishop in the area. George Weigel, on Relevant Radio, made the significant point, the references cited by the NYT were not independent by any means. Each contributor had a stake in seeing the vatican smeared.
This story, and the case against the Vatican, will continue for a long time. In fact it may never really end till the return of Christ.
It is up to us to seek truth, lead others to truth, and pray for an end to all of this.
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Rence
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From the article:
*If the Supreme Court declines to take up the case this summer and lets the federal appeals ruling stand, attorneys could begin subpoenaing decades of documents and calling Vatican officials under oath. *
I hope they do supoena documents that are under lock and key in the Vatican. And I hope they call Vatican officials under oath, because if they are True, they will not lie under oath. And finally, things will be brought out in the open and finally DEALT WITH.
From the article:
In the Oregon case, lawyers are arguing that priests around the world are “employees” of the pope for whom he is responsible.
I agree with that, especially since the pertinent records are locked in the Vatican, and the Bishops report directly to the Pope.
Even though the Church is entity that is not covered nor has consented to American law, they still operate here and their employees are indeed subject to American law.
*If the Supreme Court declines to take up the case this summer and lets the federal appeals ruling stand, attorneys could begin subpoenaing decades of documents and calling Vatican officials under oath. *
I hope they do supoena documents that are under lock and key in the Vatican. And I hope they call Vatican officials under oath, because if they are True, they will not lie under oath. And finally, things will be brought out in the open and finally DEALT WITH.
From the article:
In the Oregon case, lawyers are arguing that priests around the world are “employees” of the pope for whom he is responsible.
I agree with that, especially since the pertinent records are locked in the Vatican, and the Bishops report directly to the Pope.
Even though the Church is entity that is not covered nor has consented to American law, they still operate here and their employees are indeed subject to American law.
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Rascalking
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I’m not a lawyer-but this does make sense to me. We can’t have priests walking around above the law. No one can do that.
However, I don’t think suing the vatican is a good idea.
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lemonbeam
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Most if not all of Archdiocese’ now have rules of reporting sexual abuse, that it go straight to the civil authorities, when you are a staff member or volunteer and you suspect something, or a person who wants to come report with a report of sexual abuse/assault.
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Rascalking
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Good. Um-I still don’t want priests and bishops above the law.
And I reiterate-I do NOT think suing the Vatican is a bad idea.
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Image_of_God
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Unless the abuse case came forward to the Vatican, then I would think that the Vatican does not have any documents concerning them. As many people have said, dioceses and bishops govern rather autonomously from the Vatican. If people truly want to know the truth, then I think that the documents from the archdiocese should suffice. Noteworthy is that Archbishop Weakland shredded some documents concerning abuse.
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curlycool89
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No. No, no, no, no, no, just no. Just wrong.
Legally, each Diocese has incorporated itself as it’s own non-profit organization. Priests are legally employees of the Diocese with the Bishop as their boss. The only employees of the Vatican are those that work there. As in CDF, CDW, Nuncio’s, Secretary of State, ect. The Bishops report to the Pope of their own volition.
If they approve this is just proves that they don’t have any understanding of their own laws or international law. A sovereign country means we can’t force them under our laws. Laws are only relevant if they are enforceable, and for the most part that means having control over the territory you are trying to put under the law. If they are not under your control then they can thumb their nose at you and you can’t do anything about it because you don’t control that territory.
We’re getting into the very definition of sovereignty itself.
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whatevergirl
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*I don’t believe that the Vatican plays a role in any of this…but, as humans, in our culture, it’s very commonplace to point at the ‘‘head’’ of an organization as being responsible for the goings on of the organization. Take Enron, no one believed that Ken Lay had nothing to do with what happened…I mean, you’re the CEO Mr Lay, were comments from reporters…you mean to tell us you had no idea what was happening in a company you presided over? I read a book about Enron, and actually, Ken Lay TRUSTED those under him and I believe to this day,his innocence in the Enron implosion. He died, but if he were alive, I don’t believe he should have faced charges, after reading the book I read about the facts. Same holds true with the Catholic Church. The Vatican has protocol in place for how to handle all kinds of issues…and trusts that Bishops are doing their part to ensure safety, at the very least, of their parishioners. That said, it’s very common for us as humans to look at the Vatican and say it should be held somewhat responsible. The logical answer is…going forward, the Vatican needs to play a big role in getting in the trenches with the local parishes, and making sure that those it entrusts to shepherd the flock, is indeed competent to do so. That is my take. I think that dragging the Pope through a trial in the U.S., seems silly and futile. I am outraged by the abuse cases, and that for so long, the innocent were harmed. But, I think that if something like that were to ever happen again, I’m confident that the situations would be handled MUCH better than they were years ago. *
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momor
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Frankly, I think the reasons for the lawsuits are more pragmatic…MONEY!
The Vatican has deep pockets. The bankruptcies of a number of dioceses in the US have severely limited the size of settlements and hence the lawyers percentage. These cases are expensive and time consuming to litigate because the Church puts up such stumbling blocks.
The Vatican has deep pockets. The bankruptcies of a number of dioceses in the US have severely limited the size of settlements and hence the lawyers percentage. These cases are expensive and time consuming to litigate because the Church puts up such stumbling blocks.
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curlycool89
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That goes without saying. The policy was very different back when most of these happened (I can’t remember, the last CCL before 1983 was released in 1923?). From what I’ve heard, much of it is the product of the times. Bishops moved priests around because that’s what the experts in the social sciences told them was the best thing to do. The experts told them that they could be cured and treated and that there was nothing to worry about. When I say experts, I mean people who were considered to be the experts by their field, so who was the Church to argue against people with studies and doctorates to back them up?
Reports to the civil authorities were often just dismissed too, but no one seems to be looking at the civil authorities, are they? Now the policy is very different in all cases. The Church will pass anything it can (aka anything outside the confessional) to the civil authorities, who won’t just ignore it. You can’t judge what happened in the climate of the 60s by the climate of the 2000s. The Church followed the best information back then, information we now know to be false. Did we know that then? Absolutely not.
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momor
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What I believe the Church CAN be faulted for is lack of supervision of the abusers and giving too many chances. Many were in trouble MULTIPLE times and the pastor in the next parish they were transferred to was not informed of their history.
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lemonbeam
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Very good post! I agree with everything you said!
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lemonbeam
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Yeah, there where a whole host of failures, from the Psychologists who said pedophiles could be cured, to Bishops being too compassionate and giving too many chances to Priests who had abused their position of trust. The Police who would sometimes ignore Victims claims. etc. the list goes on.
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whatevergirl
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*lemonbeam…I really like your posts…you are a beam of light to me. 
Something I thought of earlier…and it’s a sobering thought…that Michael Vick sat in jail for two years was it? for his involvement in a dog breeding/competition/killing ring…(rightfully so) and so many priests have not paid a day in prison for what they did to KIDS. I’m not a stone thrower, but something is really wrong with our priorities in society. Granted, I realize many of these cases took place 20, 30, 40+ yrs ago, and over the past decade, the veil of all of this has been lifted…so I doubt we would see coverups, and people not being held accountable, should anything like that happen again. But, it’s an interesting thought, just the same…*
Something I thought of earlier…and it’s a sobering thought…that Michael Vick sat in jail for two years was it? for his involvement in a dog breeding/competition/killing ring…(rightfully so) and so many priests have not paid a day in prison for what they did to KIDS. I’m not a stone thrower, but something is really wrong with our priorities in society. Granted, I realize many of these cases took place 20, 30, 40+ yrs ago, and over the past decade, the veil of all of this has been lifted…so I doubt we would see coverups, and people not being held accountable, should anything like that happen again. But, it’s an interesting thought, just the same…*
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whatevergirl
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Back to the original topic…I don’t know if a lawsuit should prevail here, just from a logical and ethical standpoint, that the Vatican doesn’t have the same people in the positions when these incidents took place. It would be like someone suing Walmart’s mgmt, for something that happened 20 yrs ago…like say, a sexual harassment case. The current Pope, unless people are linking him to the time when he was ArchBishop,but still in that case…you wouldn’t sue the Vatican. I just think that it doesn’t make logical sense to sue an entity whereby the people who presided at the time of the incidents, are either dead, or no longer in those positions. I definitely can see the wolverines circling…aka lawyers. There are good lawyers in the world, but so many today, want fame and fortune and will do just about anything to get their name in the paper. Suing the Vatican would definitely get one’s name in lights. 
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whatevergirl
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The Bishops’ compassion went one way, strangely. They should have been showing compassion to the priests’ victims. (I mean, when you read some of these accounts, it’s almost like the victims weren’t even heard, let alone consoled for what was going on, of those who spoke up to other priests) But, I hear you. It definitely was a climate for the perfect storm, back 40+ years ago in the Church. I am of the firm belief, that sometimes it takes horrific events in history, to bring about reform. Reform has been needed for a while as it relates to the clergy, sadly, it had to come about in this way.
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lemonbeam
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Thank you for the sweet comment about my posts!*lemonbeam…I really like your posts…you are a beam of light to me.
Something I thought of earlier…and it’s a sobering thought…that Michael Vick sat in jail for two years was it? for his involvement in a dog breeding/competition/killing ring…(rightfully so) and so many priests have not paid a day in prison for what they did to KIDS. I’m not a stone thrower, but something is really wrong with our priorities in society. Granted, I realize many of these cases took place 20, 30, 40+ yrs ago, and over the past decade, the veil of all of this has been lifted…so I doubt we would see coverups, and people not being held accountable, should anything like that happen again. But, it’s an interesting thought, just the same…*
It is annoying to think about it, that some of those Priests, most of them dead now probably, have never been punished by the civil law. Well, they will have been judged by God accordingly.
The veil has lifted, there is no way that cover ups could ever happen again because the rules are now if you are a volunteer or staff member and you have a suspicion of a minor being abused, or you allege that you have been abused, the Archdiocese’ rules are that you go straight to the civil or criminal authorities. Thus, no cover ups can occur.
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lemonbeam
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True. The Bishops where misguided.The Bishops’ compassion went one way, strangely. They should have been showing compassion to the priests’ victims. (I mean, when you read some of these accounts, it’s almost like the victims weren’t even heard, let alone consoled for what was going on, of those who spoke up to other priests) But, I hear you. It definitely was a climate for the perfect storm, back 40+ years ago in the Church. I am of the firm belief, that sometimes it takes horrific events in history, to bring about reform. Reform has been needed for a while as it relates to the clergy, sadly, it had to come about in this way.
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