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Contarini
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Which? If you are asking about the ordination of women–this is something I’ve talked about on other threads and am willing to explain yet again, but not on this thread.
Edwin
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Edwin
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ralphinal
Guest
PM me with if, or a link to one, if you don’t mind. I have never heard an intellegent presentation of the position without the politics. I think you could do that quite well.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
I met Robert Duncan a few years ago, fantastic guy with his head on straight. How sad when ECUSA feels the need to defrock someone for standing up for the Truth.
A good friend of mine is a deacon in the Pittsburgh diocese, but not for much longer, now that this has happened.OK, so according to the article he’s not been defrocked for his theology, but for his talk of removing the diocese from ECUSA. Never mind that it’s because of his theology that he would ever consider such a thing. I’m thinking of a word right now that rhymes with bug spit.
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GKC
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I’m not sure I do think so. But I’m also sure I can’t explicate the distinction very well. I stick with “impossible”. I probably could be convinced it was heretical.
GKC
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grandfather
Guest
How do you know what is heresy and what is not? Do you define it for yourself?
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Contarini
Guest
It depends on what you mean by “for yourself.” If you mean: do I use my intellect to discern what the Church’s teaching is, and to ascertain to the best of my ability whether a certain view is compatible with that teaching–then of course. So do Catholics, though they have a lot more help. If you mean: do I make up a definition based on my personal views, without regard for the Church. Then no, of course I don’t do that.
If you think Catholics don’t define heresy “for themselves,” you should talk to the folks here who think Fr. Raymond Brown was a heretic, even though he was never condemned as such.
Edwin
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grandfather
Guest
I am not interested so much in who is a heretic or orthodox, but what is heresy. Do individuals decide for themselves that Arian beliefs are heretical, or does that get sorted out by a Church council as history indicates?
If individuals decide for themselves what is true or false on such matters, and that is only an example, then we have chaos, as Protestantism has created.
We do not only need to know whether Arias was right or wrong, but there are many theological questions we face that are important to us.
If there are a hundred questions or matters of concern and a hundred people deciding for themselves what truth is, what is the number of possible combinations that might be the outcome?
Christ gave authority to the Church to teach. This does not mean we suspend our intellectual processes. It means they are aligned with revealed truth. Aquinas did not turn off his brain and become an unquetioning robot.
We are not islands. Paul says be of one mind. If you make up your own mind on various matters you eventually end up on your own island, isolated, your own pope, the ultimate outcome of relativism. What is true for me is true for me and you can have yours.
Anglicanism in recent times tried to make room for everyone, the ultimate big tent. No matter what you believe it is ok. We can all get along. Whatever you believe we support you.
We are witnessing the results of this. The only thing there was no room left for in Anglicanism was orthodoxy. It turned into a circus. Sanity and insanity are incompatible.
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
I can’t speak for everyone but I think most Catholics are NOT delighting in the downfall or misfortunes of Anglicans. I’m sure not. But to say the AC is not comming apart is just not accurate. They have split into sects that can scarcely appear to have even had ties in the first place. Look at Sydney, Australia where they allow THE LAITY to ‘consecrate’ the Host!? Look at England and the U.S. where gays and women are ‘priests’ while in San Joaquin, CA and Fort Worth, TX women ‘priests’ are non-existent. Conservatives have created their own “Lambeth” with GAFCON and some churches could care less about either. Some “conservatives” ordain women, some do not. Some throw the ‘Eucharist’ to pigeons after their liturgy thinking it empty bread while other ‘anglo catholic’ Anglicans worship the Eucharist in adoration?
In the U.S. we have had break off churches aligning with African and South American dioceses and CANA and AMIA and a zillion other splinter groups.
This fits the definition of chaos and a lack of unity if I’ve ever seen it!
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Glorfindel
Guest
This is a god example of the MANY reasons I am leaving the Episcopal Church. As are many others, it would hardly surprise me if there were only a handful of TEC “Churches” 30 year from now, I left a sinking ship, it was sad.
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grandfather
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When the ship goes down a rescue effort follows. Some think the Canterbury is not going down, but just experiencing a few waves, and stay on board. The band plays on.
Peter’s boat will see storms, but never sink. Christ walked across the water to Peter’s boat and calmed the threatening seas. He will also walk across time and meet her and all the souls therein.
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Mrs_Mac
Guest
Glorfindel, to continue on the nautical theme, two years ago I was in the same boat you are in now. (I notice you’re in RCIA) I was a lifelong Episcopalian, and although I will always be grateful for my Christian upbringing, I am so happy for the moral clarity I have found in the Catholic Church.
That said, I still have a great deal of respect for the Anglican Communion, it’s the ECUSA that has the problems.
God Bless!
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Gerry_Hunter
Guest
When the Primate of the Anglican Church of Nigeria declares his church to be out of communion with a vast number of members of the US and Canadian Anglican churches, that is hardly a viewpoint of mine. And he has done that, so it’s a fact, not anybody’s viewpoint at all.
I will admit to one “viewpoint.” The staying away from a Lambeth conference on the part of hundreds of Anglican Communion bishops is a sign of fission, not fusion.
The assertion that I would deny that Bob Duncan is in Anglican orders is quite baseless. It’s hardly a matter of concern to me at all. It is to be noted, though, that there is a body of opinion in the US TEC that he is outside Anglican orders.
As for delight, this is another fantasy. There is no basis for delight at all. I said it’s no joy among Christians, and prominent members of the Curia have essentially expressed very much the same sentiment. So the statement that either I, or the Church, “delights” in the situation is utterly baseless.
In summary, the reply was clearly misposted, because it was clearly not to the statement quoted before it, as a reading of that statement will show.
Gerry
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emeraldcoast
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From Fr. Fred Barber+, Rector, Trinity-Ft. Worth
There are a lot of things wrong with the Episcopal Church.
There is nothing particularly remarkable about that statement. Every church that I know has something wrong with it. The remarkable thing about the Episcopal Church is that is ready to admit its flaws and imperfections. I suppose that is one of the reasons that I will stay with it. It is like me: an imperfect and sinful creature who (with God’s help) is trying to grow in grace and understanding.
Many churches that I have encountered don’t see themselves that way. They don’t like to see themselves as an imperfect institution; instead they like to see themselves as the churches that have the simple, straight truth. They understand that they have the perfect book (the Bible) or the perfect leader (the pope) or the perfect message (Joel Osteen). If you have a tough human problem, they have a straight and simple answer for you. Are you in a destructive marriage? Stay in it, divorce is a sin. Are you gay? It is a sinful lifestyle; pray that God will heal you. Do you feel a call to the priesthood? If you are a man we can talk, if you are a woman we cannot talk. Are you a non-Christian? Heaven is simply not open to you. Hard questions met with simple answers.
The Episcopal Church has never worked that way. Our Church says the answers to the problems of life are tough and complicated. When we read about the life and ministry of Jesus we see a man who was often ambiguous in his answers, challenging his followers to think for themselves.
Jesus’ ministry was about ambiguity. He stated that he did not intend to change one iota of the law. Yet in Galilee, his ministry was to the people of the land: The people who could not keep a kosher household, or obey all the laws of ritual purity. He spoke to them of God’s love for them, and their place in the kingdom of heaven…in spite of their shortcomings on keeping the law. Ambiguity
Or do you remember the story of the woman caught in adultery? The law was simple…stone her. Jesus challenges the crowd with “he who is without sin cast the first stone.” On the other hand, he tells the woman to go and sin no more. Ambiguity
St. Paul wrote to his friend Philemon. His runaway slave was with Paul, and the law of the day was clear. In running, Onesimus had stolen. He should be returned and punished. Paul never asks that this law be set aside, but he does let Philemon know that he would welcome Onesimus back to assist him in prison as a dear brother. Paul is ambiguous…not asking that the law be set aside, but giving Philemon the choice of either taking him back, freeing him, or sending him into Paul’s care. Choice, Ambiguity.
Ambiguity is still with us. We have divorced people who are part of our congregations. We acknowledge that divorce is a tragedy and a sin…but often the best option. We see people who are on their second marriage after a divorce, yet that marriage seems blessed with the peace and grace of God
We have people who are gay, and are in long and committed relationships. Certainly God created us male and female to reproduce and carry on our species, but some folks don’t fit into that norm. We don’t reject them. Most of us have concluded that they had no choice about their orientation. They, like us, are God’s children.
We see people who are Jews or Muslims who believe in the God of Abraham, but do not acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God. Will God reject them from heaven? Most of us don’t think so. Some churches feel they have a rulebook or a ruler that says who is out and who is in…we leave that up to God.
Episcopalians are short on law and long on grace. As in the biblical witness, ambiguity does not scare us. Episcopalians are ready to believe that God is more loving and forgiving then many churches assume. Episcopalians believe that God is working out his purposes in the world with the help of many people: Christian, Jew, Muslim and others.
It’s not easy being an Episcopalian. Instead of just following the rules or just following orders from above…we have to think out each situation. We don’t ignore the rules and the commandments, but we do understand that there are times when they have to be applied with moderation and love. We understand that probably not everyone is going to heaven, but we are willing to let God do the choosing and the excluding. We like to focus more on telling our members to keep their own lives in order, and not to focus on pointing out the moral flaws and shortcomings of their neighbor.
Anglican (Episcopal) Christianity can produce saints like William Wilberforce, William Temple, and Desmond Tutu. It can also produce folks that wander completely off the reservation like John Shelby Spong, although even he made some good points.
I can give you a long list of things that I find wrong with the Episcopal Church: I think we pick administrators and not teachers when we search for bishops. I think we have a less than perfect way of exercising the teaching office in our church. I think we too often follow the pied piper of our culture when we make decisions.
continue…
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emeraldcoast
Guest
continue…with Father Fred Barber+
But I believe that we honestly are listening for God’s call. I also believe that we are discerning and following the Holy Spirit. I also believe that we have been ready to bring the Gospel to difficult and new situations in our culture. Yes, the Episcopal Church makes a lot of mistakes, but it also does a lot of ministry. It takes the wrong path sometimes, but it usually sees its mistakes and is ready to admit and correct them. It argues too much with itself, but it has always been able to respond in a united way to the needs of people in the name of Christ.
Like me, this imperfect church has been able, through the mercy of God, to muddle along.
Some may seek out the Roman Church with its clear doctrine and detailed canon law. Some may seek out a bible church that will quote you a verse from the bible to answer your every question. Some may seek out a church with a doctrine that says God wants you to be rich, so you won’t feel guilty about the amount of stuff that you have.
I will stay with The Episcopal Church. I believe that God the Holy Spirit is with us as we tackle the problems of today. We are going to make some mistakes as we minister in this world. But we will also do some effective ministry in the name of Christ. Perhaps I’m just a glutton for punishment, but I’ll stay with the Episcopal Church.
Jesus understood the ambiguity of his situation in Israel. He upheld the law, but loved and offered salvation to the people who did not perfectly obey it. I think that same Jesus understands the Episcopal Church and our proclamation of the Gospel. I think he appreciates that we have shied away from easy answers, and have struggled and wrestled with the ambiguity of humanity and faith. May God guide us in this struggle.
steadfastfw.org/more%20why%20we%20stay/more%20barber.htm
But I believe that we honestly are listening for God’s call. I also believe that we are discerning and following the Holy Spirit. I also believe that we have been ready to bring the Gospel to difficult and new situations in our culture. Yes, the Episcopal Church makes a lot of mistakes, but it also does a lot of ministry. It takes the wrong path sometimes, but it usually sees its mistakes and is ready to admit and correct them. It argues too much with itself, but it has always been able to respond in a united way to the needs of people in the name of Christ.
Like me, this imperfect church has been able, through the mercy of God, to muddle along.
Some may seek out the Roman Church with its clear doctrine and detailed canon law. Some may seek out a bible church that will quote you a verse from the bible to answer your every question. Some may seek out a church with a doctrine that says God wants you to be rich, so you won’t feel guilty about the amount of stuff that you have.
I will stay with The Episcopal Church. I believe that God the Holy Spirit is with us as we tackle the problems of today. We are going to make some mistakes as we minister in this world. But we will also do some effective ministry in the name of Christ. Perhaps I’m just a glutton for punishment, but I’ll stay with the Episcopal Church.
Jesus understood the ambiguity of his situation in Israel. He upheld the law, but loved and offered salvation to the people who did not perfectly obey it. I think that same Jesus understands the Episcopal Church and our proclamation of the Gospel. I think he appreciates that we have shied away from easy answers, and have struggled and wrestled with the ambiguity of humanity and faith. May God guide us in this struggle.
steadfastfw.org/more%20why%20we%20stay/more%20barber.htm
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Contarini
Guest
I agree with much of the article, but this selection is typical Episcopalian triumphalism and probably a dig at Catholicism. As if Catholics just “followed orders from above” and didn’t think things out. I want to dissociate myself completely from this particular statement.
Edwin
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grandfather
Guest
Those who belong to any religion are followers of that religion. Jesus talks about being His disciple, His follower. Do followers of Jesus not think for themselves? Can they claim to be His followers and not follow Him blindly, and rely on Him to guide and lead them on the way, but think for themselves and make their own way? Can they claim that He is their lord if they guide themselves?
If people follow no leader, but think and decide for themselves, making up their own mind for themselves, but claim to belong to some religion, what is it that this religion tells them to do, that makes this relgion a religion at all? It tells them to think for themselves, be independent of everyone else, follow no one.
Anyone who has read the writings of the great doctors of the Church over the ages would never say that in order to be a Christian you must suspend your intellectual faculties.
There is a paradox where we both follow and think. We think with our minds, but also with the mind of the Church that we know by faith in Chrisit’s promises is guided by the Holy Spirit conforming it always to truth.
We are both independent and in communion. The proof of the communion is that we are of one mind. We have unity. Unity ultimately is preserved by obedience to the authority of Church, the authoirty Christ gave the power to teach.
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rpp
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I have not seen any Catholic express any delight in what is happening with the Anglican Communion. I have seen many Catholic express dismay and sadness over certain event such as this. While I do not follow closely the opinions of other denominations, I suspect that NO ONE is taking any delight in the troubles within the Anglican Church.
I for one am very sad about the confusion, doctrinal changes and the growing moral laxity in the Church of England.
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Contarini
Guest
Then you can’t have read many of the posts I’ve read on this topic, and/or you aren’t thinking about the implications of the sheer number of threads started by Catholics talking about the troubles in Anglicanism. If you went onto an Episcopal discussion forum, and saw frequent threads with headings talking about the scandals in the Catholic Church, I think you would reasonably conclude that Anglicans were taking some degree of “delight” in the troubles of fellow Christians.
Edwin
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ralphinal
Guest
I have seen too many Catholics celebrate this kind of thing. In fact, all of us, no matter our faith system, see people like us who are happy when something goes wrong in another’s church. We hold it us as proof that they are wrong and we are right. Sometimes, that is true. Many times it is not. Either way, we have no room to rejoice in the troubles of others.
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