M
M-Dent
Guest
They do not. They are not part of the CDF and thus should be silent on such issues. Have a bit of humility.
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T
Tony_the_mad
Guest
Very true. Most of us can use a person following us around saying nothing more than that.God does not delight if broadcasting the weaknesses and death of his children. He delights in raising them up when they are fallen.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
I only wish I had confidence that the leaders of our Church follow that philosophy.
T
triumphguy
Guest
By “competency” I think JR means legal right and ability, rather than “skill.”
And so they do have more “competency” than the Bishops.
And the CDF would be the first to agree.
J
JReducation
Guest
Religious men are not going to say “work with the CDF” until it’s clear that the CDF is going to keep bishops and laity away, operate through the papal delegate or through a council. That’s why the sister’s visit to Cardinal Levada is important. Hopefully he will make these guarantees, as they’ve done with the SSPX where they have kept everyone out of the loopHow about we are your brothers. Please work with the CDF?
What happened here was that this report to the LCWR was to be top secret to protect the right of exemption of those sisters who have it. Someone leaked the report to the media. Now we have a potentially dangerous situation in which laity and bishops can get involved, because they have access to information that they were not supposed to see.
So far, the bishops have been very good. They are pretending that they have not seen a thing. The laity is talking about it and taking sides. That’s not good for the laity. At the end of the day, the laity have no power or influence in the matter. It only sets them up against each other and against one or the other group of religious. The laity is splintered enough without getting involved in more conflict.
Franciscans are always going to come to the help of other Franciscans, whatever the problem is. We will never take a position against the Church or disobey the Church. We will always let our brothers and sisters know that they can count on the rest of the family. If they need legal or other kinds of support, we will try to offer it, unless the Holy Father says that we cannot do so, which would never happen to the big four.
The friars, especially the OFMs, financed the sisters for many years until they were settled. Some of the sisters were founded by friars.
The brothers would never challenge the teachings of the Church. A individual brother might, but he won’t last long. We execute them.
We have a promise from Christ himself that we will survive to see his second coming and another from the Blessed Mother that Francis will sit at the right hand of the Father, between Jesus and Mary and that his sons will be at their feet for all eternity. AT THERE FEET, not under their feet.
We have every confidence that the Holy Spirit will walk us through renewals, but we will always be here.
Conflict can be a wholesome event when all sides are honest. When there is an agenda, then things become murky.
This is very true. This is not the fist time in where our sisters found themselves in a conflict with the Holy See. Each time, the question is the same, “What would Francis and Clare do or say?”
We know the answer. We have the letters by Francis, Clare and Bonaventure in times of conflict. Clare was very PC. She would write to the nuns expressing solidarity and then subtly mention, “Of course we know that the pope will do A, B and C, because it’s the right thing to do?” The rule prohibits questioning a pope or a bishop. It does not prohibit diplomacy. If we look at the closing of this letter, the brothers do the same as Clare. “Of course we know that the CDF is going to abide by its own laws.”
The only problem with this letter is the timing. It’s too early to tell if the sisters need help.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
M
M-Dent
Guest
Such leaders have a firm grasp of the function and role that is proper to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. And what is proper to them. They also understand this action is by the Holy Father not the CDF.
This open and PUBLIC letter is not helpful in any shape or form. It only aggravate the situation.
C
catharina
Guest
IMO, your post is patronizing and without substance.
Calling another to humility is horrifying in this instance.
C
catharina
Guest
Brother, as always, thanks for your posts,Religious men are not going to say “work with the CDF” until it’s clear that the CDF is going to keep bishops and laity away, operate through the papal delegate or through a council. That’s why the sister’s visit to Cardinal Levada is important. Hopefully he will make these guarantees, as they’ve done with the SSPX where they have kept everyone out of the loop
What happened here was that this report to the LCWR was to be top secret to protect the right of exemption of those sisters who have it. Someone leaked the report to the media. Now we have a potentially dangerous situation in which laity and bishops can get involved, because they have access to information that they were not supposed to see.
So far, the bishops have been very good. They are pretending that they have not seen a thing. The laity is talking about it and taking sides. That’s not good for the laity. At the end of the day, the laity have no power or influence in the matter. It only sets them up against each other and against one or the other group of religious. The laity is splintered enough without getting involved in more conflict.
Franciscans are always going to come to the help of other Franciscans, whatever the problem is. We will never take a position against the Church or disobey the Church. We will always let our brothers and sisters know that they can count on the rest of the family. If they need legal or other kinds of support, we will try to offer it, unless the Holy Father says that we cannot do so, which would never happen to the big four.
The friars, especially the OFMs, financed the sisters for many years until they were settled. Some of the sisters were founded by friars.
The brothers would never challenge the teachings of the Church. A individual brother might, but he won’t last long. We execute them.
We have a promise from Christ himself that we will survive to see his second coming and another from the Blessed Mother that Francis will sit at the right hand of the Father, between Jesus and Mary and that his sons will be at their feet for all eternity. AT THERE FEET, not under their feet.
We have every confidence that the Holy Spirit will walk us through renewals, but we will always be here.
Conflict can be a wholesome event when all sides are honest. When there is an agenda, then things become murky.
This is very true. This is not the fist time in where our sisters found themselves in a conflict with the Holy See. Each time, the question is the same, “What would Francis and Clare do or say?”
We know the answer. We have the letters by Francis, Clare and Bonaventure in times of conflict. Clare was very PC. She would write to the nuns expressing solidarity and then subtly mention, “Of course we know that the pope will do A, B and C, because it’s the right thing to do?” The rule prohibits questioning a pope or a bishop. It does not prohibit diplomacy. If we look at the closing of this letter, the brothers do the same as Clare. “Of course we know that the CDF is going to abide by its own laws.”
The only problem with this letter is the timing. It’s too early to tell if the sisters need help.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
in this thread especially.
God bless you with His peace forever.
M
M-Dent
Guest
It’s quite appropriate. Keeping oneself within one’s own bounds.
Those seven men were not privy to the full information and discernment involved. This is without addressing proper roles and function.
C
catharina
Guest
So YOU tell Brother jrEducation to have a little humility???
J
JReducation
Guest
They are part of the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life. They are also part of the Franciscan Conference of Major Superiors. They are part of the Ordinary authority of the Church, since they are ordinaries and they are responsible to our sisters under the Holy Rule. They are doing exactly what Francis, Clare and Bonaventure did in their time and other Franciscan superiors have done over the ages. They have reminded the sisters that they are there, if they need them.
They are not taking sides on the issues on the table. To do that, would be contrary to humility. To exercise the right of office, is not contrary to humility. There is one piece that you obviously do not know. Provincial Ministers cannot write such a letter without the approval of their councils. Franciscan superiors do not govern in a vacuum. They do so in obedience to their superiors.
The SSPX is not part of the CDF and I’ve seen many people cheer them on when they challenge the CDF. In this case, the brothers are not challenging the CDF. They are sharing a concern, which the law and their office allows them to do. Whether we agree with them or not, we must show respect for the office of an Ordinary?
The Franciscans did not accuse the CDF of not knowing what is proper to them. They expressed a concern that the response could be excessive. No one ever said that the CDF does not have a right to respond.
How is it aggravating the situation. They are not taking sides. They are doing what the Church and what the rule expects of them to do.
If you say to me that they should have waited to see the outcome of the meeting between the LCWR leadership and Cardinal Levada, I would agree with you. As to the content, there is nothing in that letter that does any harm.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
T
triumphguy
Guest
They are not some “seven men” as if they randomly got together and decided to have a poke at the hierarchy: they are seven leaders (Provincials) of Franciscan Provinces with the same powers in the Church as local ordinaries.
M
M-Dent
Guest
I believe you misunderstood my post. I was speaking of those leaders who signed the open letter.So YOU tell Brother jrEducation to have a little humility???
I appreciate the Brother taking time to explain different points.
J
JReducation
Guest
First of all, you keep saying “those seven men”. They are seven ordinaries, not the average man in the pew. These are seven who are equivalent to bishops in rights and authority. We cannot just dismiss them as common men.
I think that you may be assuming that the seven Ministers acted alone. This is not possible. Here is the way this works.
Every Provincial Minister takes his marching orders form his council. He then takes those orders to the council of Franciscan ministers. If they all have the permission of their respective councils, the letter goes to the superior general who puts it to the international council of the order, which represents 24,000 Franciscans around the world. That council authorizes the superior general to authorize the release of the letter. There is a system of checks and balances that St. Francis built into the rule. This is carefully examined for fidelity to St. Francis.
It takes us back to the same issue, timing. Timing is not a doctrinal or moral problem.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
L
Laetus
Guest
Just let the actuarial reality take its course…
L
Laetus
Guest
These seven men need to swallow their pride and be obedient to the Pontiff.First of all, you keep saying “those seven men”. They are seven ordinaries, not the average man in the pew. These are seven who are equivalent to bishops in rights and authority. We cannot just dismiss them as common men.
I think that you may be assuming that the seven Ministers acted alone. This is not possible. Here is the way this works.
Every Provincial Minister takes his marching orders form his council. He then takes those orders to the council of Franciscan ministers. If they all have the permission of their respective councils, the letter goes to the superior general who puts it to the international council of the order, which represents 24,000 Franciscans around the world. That council authorizes the superior general to authorize the release of the letter. There is a system of checks and balances that St. Francis built into the rule. This is carefully examined for fidelity to St. Francis.
It takes us back to the same issue, timing. Timing is not a doctrinal or moral problem.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
C
catharina
Guest
Code:
Post # 41 states this:
(((Originally Posted by JReducation
The actually have more competency than bishops in this case.)))
**They do not. They are not part of the CDF and thus should be silent on such issues. Have a bit of humility. (M-Dent) **Read it again. You decided to correct a Franciscan
Brother on a Catholic website, discussing an issue
that concerns the entire Church and the Franciscan Brothers.
If you INTENDED to state something else, then please do so.
Telling another to “have a little humility” is a first on CA in my
own experience. I’m past astonished.
C
catharina
Guest
Pardon me? What are you saying/Imagining?
The seven religious are being obedient to the Pope.
If otherwise would prove to be the case,
then the POPE would be telling us so!
M
M-Dent
Guest
As I noted, it was not directed to the Brother. I was refering to the leaders who penned the public open letter. I do admit it was very poorly phrased. I apologize for any offense taken.
C
catharina
Guest
Better.
Yet it is most likely the humility
of the Brothers that caused them
to state their views re their Sisters.
J
JReducation
Guest
First, you’ll have to show how they have disobeyed. Then you’ll have to show how they have been prideful in following the orders of their councils. Are they supposed to tell their councils that they will not obey in order to be humble?
Don’t worry about it my friend. We’re in text mode. I’m sure that if we were in the same room, it would have sounded as you meant it.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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