UCC president insults Pope and Catholic Church

[cestusdei]

otm,
It is interesting that for many ecumenism means Catholics becoming more Protestant. When was the last time a Protestant opined that maybe they should move toward Catholicism as a product of ecumenism? They guy was insulting. I can’t see it any other way. He probably hasn’t read a word that Benedict has written. He is president of a denomination. What would he say if the pope issued an official statement condemning him? He certainly isn’t ecumenical or very smart. It is plain dumb to attack a pope the moment he begins his reign. Even some of our liberals tried to avoid that, unsuccessfully for the most part.

 

[Ignatius]

flameburns623:

Ignatius:

Anyone have the history of the UCC? Is this the same as the one founded in 1906 after breaking away from the Cambellites?

NO!!!
The bulk of the UCC comes from the old Congregationalist Christian denomination of Pilgrim fame. In 1957 they merged with the Evangelical and Reformed Church, which itself was a merger of the Reformed Church and the Evangelical Synod. The Reformed segment was more Baptist/Presbyterian, the Evangelical Synod was a Lutheran splinter. The E & R denomination had some sort of tenuous link to Thomas and Alexander Campbell from 'way back in the 1700’s, but it is not a strong part of their heritage.

What you are thinking of would be the Churches of Christ, a fundamentalist, non-intrumental denomination which split from the Disciples of Christ and Christian Church denomination over the rise of modernist tendencies. The Independent Christian Churches and Churches of Christ split from the Disciples of Christ after WWII over the same issue. The Disciples of Christ and the UCC have been in dialogue in the past about a possible merger–the Disciples have continued to drift ever leftward and some congregations are indistinguishable from UCC congregations, but these denominations are NOT presently unified. The Independents are pretty much mainstream Evangelicals–I was born into and baptised into this segment (they practice believer’s baptism after one reaches the age of discretion).

Thank you, great summary!

 

[Lisa_N]

flameburns623:

NO!!!

The bulk of the UCC comes from the old Congregationalist Christian denomination of Pilgrim fame. In 1957 they merged with the Evangelical and Reformed Church, which itself was a merger of the Reformed Church and the Evangelical Synod. The Reformed segment was more Baptist/Presbyterian, the Evangelical Synod was a Lutheran splinter. The E & R denomination had some sort of tenuous link to Thomas and Alexander Campbell from 'way back in the 1700’s, but it is not a strong part of their heritage.

What you are thinking of would be the Churches of Christ, a fundamentalist, non-intrumental denomination which split from the Disciples of Christ and Christian Church denomination over the rise of modernist tendencies. The Independent Christian Churches and Churches of Christ split from the Disciples of Christ after WWII over the same issue. The Disciples of Christ and the UCC have been in dialogue in the past about a possible merger–the Disciples have continued to drift ever leftward and some congregations are indistinguishable from UCC congregations, but these denominations are NOT presently unified. The Independents are pretty much mainstream Evangelicals–I was born into and baptised into this segment (they practice believer’s baptism after one reaches the age of discretion).

Thank you for the info. I am really confused by the churches that call themselves ‘Church of Christ.’ There seem to be huge differences in theology even of the names are the same or very similar. I’ve heard of United Church of Christ–Congregationalist, United Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ. Thanks for clearing up the tangle.

Lisa N

 

[Catherine_S]

Agreed. On one hand, he is praying for the RCC but then he goes on to say that he is profoundly disappointed and that the Holy Father is rigid, conservative, confrontational, and lacks a warm pastoral heart. He could have just that he was praying for the Pope.

What does he care anyway? I’m sick and tired of non-Catholics sticking their noses in when it’s none of their business what goes on in the Church.

I don’t know why statements like his bother me so much.

I wish I could just sluff them off **and pray for these people to see the light.**What is it about the RCC that causes people to constantly criticize???

Shannin

Great idea Shannin ! Remember what Christ told James and John when they were not accepted in one small town. Brush off the sandles and move on !

Insecurity causes this kind of stuff !! It is always good to share ones faith with others but when folks are rude, disrespectful, abusive etc. I think it is foolhardy to bother with them.** Romans 16: 17-18**

The** Truth** will eventually point out to them what others can not !

Shalom,
Catherine

 

[Catherine_S]

otm**:

I went back and read the first post. I don’t see an attack.

He is a liberal, and his characterization of Cardinal Ratzinger is completely understandable from the position of a liberal - and not necessarily a flaming liberal.

He isn’t Catholic, and I fail to see that one should hold him to a Catholic standard. Many, if not most Protestants are generally unfamiliar with the Catholic Church, and their comments are generated from both a lack of understanding, and the ususal mish-mash** that they were taught by whomever**, said teacher most often lacking understanding as well. I don’t see him as hateful but do see him as seeing the Catholic Church through Protestant liberal eyes - e.g. why can’t the Chrurch change these doctrines?

Ignorance is not a sign of hatred. He is entitled to his opinion, and I take it as just that; an opinion, largely ill informed at its base. I take no offense; if anything,I find it amusing that people can be so dense. But then, I meet dense people every day; most of them of good heart and character, although misguided. But upset? Angry? Hurt? Abused? Mistreated?

No, I don’t feel any of those.

This is a joke right I think that you should read his book first and then give him a call and dialogue with him ! After you wake up ofcourse :whacky: !

“A Woman Rides The Beast” is the truth about the Roman Catholic Church laid bare, and calls to attention** both the dangers of ecunemism and the inevitability of a New World Order controlled by Rome,** as prophesied in the Bible in Revelation 17-18.** Dave Hunt** is a brilliant historian and theologian, and he goes through Roman Catholicism’s blood-stained history as well **as picking apart their laughable **doctrines, such as Purgatory and Mass. This book is essential for Evangelicals who tend to compromise with Catholics, and also for Roman Catholics who are genuinely seeking the truth and want to know the real truth about their organization. This is a very meaty book, **but extremely rewarding. **

 

[flameburns623]

Lisa N:

Thank you for the info. I am really confused by the churches that call themselves ‘Church of Christ.’ There seem to be huge differences in theology even of the names are the same or very similar. I’ve heard of United Church of Christ–Congregationalist, United Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ. Thanks for clearing up the tangle.

Lisa N

Want some more alphabet soup in case your weren’t already thoroughly confused? Churches of Christ, Uniting (COCU, and also known as Consultation On Church Union) was a movement to unite the UCC with the Disciples and several other denominations (Presbyterian Church, USA, Episcopal Church, International, African Methodist Episcopal Church, African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, United Methoist Church). The final variant of the name was to be Churches of Christ, UNITED–but I believe the project struck the shoals of divergent theology and sank into obscurity. To sum up:

United Church of Christ (UCC)–a liberal Protestant denomination formed by the union of Congregationalists, The Evangelical Church and the Reformed Synod in 1957–the Evangelical Church and Reformed Synod having earlier merged and constituted themselves the Evangelical and Reformed Church.

Disciples of Christ–most liberal of the Campbellite sects, fomed during a process known among them as ‘Restructure’ between approximately 1950 and 1960.

Independent Christian Churches and Churches of Christ–Campellite Churches which permit the use of instruments and generally Evangelical and moderate, but which declined to participate in ‘Restructure’.

Churches of Christ: Churches which split from the main bodies of the Campbellite movement begining in about 1880; they were first listed as an independent denomination in @1906.

Churches of Christ, Uniting, Consultation on Church Union (COCU), etcetera: Ecumenical endeavor of several liberal denominations, possibly now defunct or at least stagnant.

There are various and sundry other denominations which use terms such as ‘Church of Christ of , , , , , , ,’ and you generally have to look for the ‘fine print’ behind the name to determine whether the church is part of one of the above denominations, some OTHER denomination–or none of the above.

 

[otm]

cestusdei:

otm,
It is interesting that for many ecumenism means Catholics becoming more Protestant. When was the last time a Protestant opined that maybe they should move toward Catholicism as a product of ecumenism? They guy was insulting. I can’t see it any other way. He probably hasn’t read a word that Benedict has written. He is president of a denomination. What would he say if the pope issued an official statement condemning him? He certainly isn’t ecumenical or very smart. It is plain dumb to attack a pope the moment he begins his reign. Even some of our liberals tried to avoid that, unsuccessfully for the most part.

I will assume your comment about ecuminism is not directed towards me. But the last time a Protestant opined that they should move closer to Catholicism as a result of ecumenism was probable this last Easter when they joined the Chruch. If you think ecuminism is not working, you are not paying attention.

You take his remarks as insulting. I don’t, perhaps because I consider the source. I do not consider him to be a paragon of information about the Catholic Church, and I put him in the same category as I do many, if not most liberals: misguided, ill-informed, usually well meaning, and a bit daffy. In other words, they do not upset me; I simply consider the source. I don’t even consdier it much, if anything, orf an attack; in fact, a good part of what he said is true, although I might choose other words to express it. Words, for example, such as orthodox, as opposed to conservative. There is a significant difference between the two, but most liberals don’t even have a clue, in large part because they have what might be called an “ad hoc” approach to a personal philosophy, one that prohibits them from even beginning to understand someone who has an integrated philosophy. When you approach theology from a personal, “ad hoc” philosophical world view, you are going to get an “ad hoc” theology, one that can’t hold together under logical examination. But they fail to even see that, as logic really has no place in their lives.

It is too bad you are upset. You are letting things get to you that are not worthy of your angst. I would guess the Pope has a lot thicker skin than you do.

 

[cestusdei]

I have an incredibly thick skin. I don’t mind insults to myself a bit. But this guy moans about ecumenism and they acts incredibly unecumenical by insulting the pope. Next time the local clergy meet I will ask the UCC pastor if he agrees with what his president said. If so then the annual Thanksgiving service will be without Catholic participation. But hey, it isn’t an insult or meant negatively…

 

[Chrissy5754]

JKirkLVNV:

My southern grandfather, a Southern Baptist deacon (88), said that lots of people would leave the Catholic Church if the cardinals elected “that African.” I said,“You mean Cardinal Arinze???” “Yup, that’s the one!” I was so flabbergasted I didn’t know what to say…and as you all know, that doesn’t happen all that much! I’ve heard others say things to the effect that the Church will die out…as if!

Gee, my hubby and I were really hoping for a “third world” Pope. We just feel that us white-and-richer-than-most-everyone-else types have been over-represented in Rome. As for “dying out” … correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t RC not only the oldest continuously operating organization on the planet, but also the one with the largest membership?

 

[Lisa_N]

Chrissy5754:

Gee, my hubby and I were really hoping for a “third world” Pope. We just feel that us white-and-richer-than-most-everyone-else types have been over-represented in Rome. As for “dying out” … correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t RC not only the oldest continuously operating organization on the planet, but also the one with the largest membership?

FWIW I am curious about people who wanted a ‘third world Pope’ as that was the sentiment of one of my friends as well. I asked why and she said well that’s where the church is growing. But to me becoming Pope isn’t a prize to the guy who sells the most raffle tickets. You look at the position and find the best man for the job.

Believe me I really liked Cardinal Arinze and he may well be quite qualified but when I look at Pope Benedict XVI’s incredible intellect, his experience in the Vatican, his scholarly works, his humility, etc etc etc, he seems like SUCH a good choice and I would hate for ‘reverse discrimination’ to have been a factor in “we don’t want another white European…” just on principle.

Lisa N

 

[Timothy888]

VociMike:

The Catholic Church keeps choosing Catholic Popes and that really, really bugs some people./QUOTE

You mean the Roman Catholic Church, the Catholic (universal) Church belongs to Christ not to Rome or the Vicar of Rome, though Rome was always greedy, to the extent of trying to wipe out as much of the Catholic Church as possible, well i suppose put as you put it, it would even offend my Father in Heaven who knows who are Catholic Christians and who are not, still, these things must come to pass, and we shouldn’t let it worry us too much, a pity for those who support it though, still Gods will be done.

Thank God for Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior
Peace to you VociMike

 

[Timothy888]

“You worship God in your way and I in His.” (Cardinal Manning)

I agree, you do just that.

 

[dennisknapp]

JackmanUSC:

What the heck is UCC?

Unitarians Considering Christ

Peace

 

[mark_a]

JKirkLVNV:

My southern grandfather, a Southern Baptist deacon (88), said that lots of people would leave the Catholic Church if the cardinals elected “that African.” I said,“You mean Cardinal Arinze???” “Yup, that’s the one!” I was so flabbergasted I didn’t know what to say…and as you all know, that doesn’t happen all that much!

A couple of years ago, a reporter made a similar comment to a church official, and his reply was “if that’s what they waiting on, they can go ahead and leave now”. I wish I could remember who it was.

I’ve heard others say things to the effect that the Church will die out…as if!

Right. The fact is that the Catholic Church is the big dog on the porch and all these “also ran” denom leaders need someone to focus their hatred toward. Is it plain and simple jealosy?

 

[Timothy888]

Right. The fact is that the Catholic Church is the big dog on the porch and all these “also ran” denom leaders need someone to focus their hatred toward. Is it plain and simple jealosy?

I don’t truely believe it’s hatred, maybe pity, compassion, remember Matt 24:14 ’ And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.’
Well the Roman church has been in the whole world for some time now, doesn’t that ring any bells? Something else must be being taught than the gospel of the kingdom!

and a little earlier in the chapter vs.9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you:and ye shall be hated of all nations for my names sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and decieve many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

The protestant Church never had the power to deliver up Christians, the Roman catholic church has done it many times, it’s their tradition, right up to comunist times, and would do it again at the drop of a hat to silence the truth. The only church that is accepted by the whole world even by muslems as being “christian” because it cleaverly “caves in” to the desires of world leaders, it did in comunism and to Hitler, Christians don’t cave in or betray one another, they would rather die a martyrs death than betray Christs trust, the Roman church even betrayed it’s own members.
So it’s pity, i think and love to want the Roman church to get back to Christs teachings, if it’s tradition then there should be something like six Bishops in Rome, not just one, the Churches one leader is Christ, nobody else can be the Head of Christs church on earth unless of course you believe Jesus is dead, or has no power Himself on earth. And the Queen of heaven a gnostic belief, carried over to the Roman church when Luther tried to reform it and bring it back to its’ roots. Others have been martyred by the Roman church for trying to teach it its wrongs, and i suppose more will be, Christ doesn’t want us to give up, because there are Christians in the Roman church, forced to pick the right things and ignore the wrong, they have more courage than i, i got out, weak as i was and to an extent still am. This of course is true of every Catholic including those who protest at the “mistakes” in the Roman church without looking at some of their own “mistakes”.
I pray about this all the time, nothing would give me more delight though than seeing the Roman church turn again and correct it’s misguided canon, i’d re-join!
I don’t envy the Christians within the present Roman church, but i do hold them in esteem, they are better and stronger than i.

Gods blessings to you brothers and sisters, and Lord Jesuses grace be with you in all you do, may the fellowship of the Holy Spirit comfort us all always.
Peace to you all

 

[cestusdei]

Timothy,
In Geneva Calvin had Servetus burned at the state. In England many Catholics were hung, drawn, and quartered by your fellow Protestants. Ever hear of St. John Fisher? I think you need to actually read some of your own church history. I did and ended up Catholic.

 

[Ruthie]

Timothy888 wrote: “The protestant Church never had the power to deliver up Christians, the Roman catholic church has done it many times, it’s their tradition, right up to comunist times, and would do it again at the drop of a hat to silence the truth. The only church that is accepted by the whole world even by muslems as being “christian” because it cleaverly “caves in” to the desires of world leaders, it did in comunism and to Hitler, Christians don’t cave in or betray one another, they would rather die a martyrs death than betray Christs trust, the Roman church even betrayed it’s own members.”

Timothy, you should go read “Catholic Answers Special Report: Chick Tracts.”
catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts_p1.asp

• • As for being insulted, that’s all right; “If you are insulted for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.” 1 Peter 4:14 (NAB)

 

[Zooey]

BillyT92679:

Every denomination includes a “social gospel.” It’s the idea that the church has a responsibility to servicing all the people’s of the world… to do corporal works of mercy, to assist the downtrodden. However, some denominations emphasize it INSTEAD of the faith. Many Protestants and liberal Catholics do this. I never understood why Protestants did it, because it basically posits an idea that good works alone merit salvation, which is totally the exact opposite of Luther and Calvin et. al. For us Catholics, it ignores the fact that Sanctifying Grace comes through faith in God and also practicing good works.
It’s not a bad thing so much, but the real problem is that these liberals do more than works of charity. Groups like the UCC and, especially, the Unitarians, actively support things that are completely contrary to Christian morality. Endorsing same-sex marriages is one notable example, though these Protestant ecclesial communities oftentimes even support Planned Parenthood!!!

This is a good summary! I have to point out that the reason that some Protestants like the “social gospel” is because they are so comvinced that they are so darn nice that God will let them into Heaven whether they believe in anything or not…And, of course, those who–like myself–think its a little more strict a process are “fanatics”…you know, like :whacky: …because we don’t think you can just up & accept gay (so-called)marriage , etc…

 

[Peace-bwu]

boppysbud:

I’m not exactly sure how this president was insulting the Pope BenedictXVIth and the Catholic church.

He did state that he was dissapointed in the Cardinal’s choice in a very conservative candidate. But so were a lot of less-conservative Catholics themselves. Are we less-conservative Catholics insulting our holy Father and the church we love by being dissapointed with the selection of a very conservative Pope?

I am a Catholic, I love and support both the Holy Father and the church period. But I would not have been unhappy had the conclave selected a more moderate candidate.

A more moderate candidate? It sounds as if there may be a little confusion here, it isn’t a democratic election. The cardinals didn’t get to vote on what moral beliefs we want to uphold. Catholics and noncatholics who have the mistaken notion that the Catholic Church can ever change on life issues such as abortion and euthanasia and birth control and homosexual marriage are in for continued disappointment. These moral issues were hammered out within the first few centuries. Apostolic Tradition and Scripture cannot change, that would be changing the Will and Word of God, we simply do not have the authority to do that. We don’t get a vote on what is or is not a sin, only God gets to do that, and His Church must keep Apostolic Tradition intact,

We need to be very careful how we perceive “politics” within the Catholic Church. There are no political parties, so they can’t really be held in the same light. The definition of liberal and conservitive have changed in the American politcal arena. When you look at the pope you must realize that his job is to speak and uphold Truth, not what is wanted or popular by societal standards and whims. I was thrilled to see that the Holy Spirit is keeping the deposit of faith alive and well for future generations.

 

[mark_a]

Zooey:

. . . . .the reason that some Protestants like the “social gospel” is because they are so comvinced that they are so darn nice that God will let them into Heaven whether they believe in anything or not . . . . . .

Are you kidding? Is this a joke? Am I in a parallel universe where up is down, day is night, black is white? What’s next? Chicken salad instead of tuna on toast?

Sorry for the Seinfeld flashback, but isn’t “works” supposed to be our thing?

Don’t we have a patent or copyright or something on “works”?