UK fast-food workers get US lesson in protesting against poverty wages

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But advocates of the free market usually favour total laissez faire where the strongest in the market battle with the weaker and winner takes all. If anyone espouses free market capitalism they cannot then say it shouldn’t be a free market if it damages my business or complain when the government refuses to intervene in the market to make it better for them. That would only be a bit free when it suited. At best it would be a mixed economy with some social control and that control would per force involve regulation of income
one does not have to advocate for total laissez faire as a free market supporter. There is a place for laws prohibiting monopolies or slave labor for example. But I think you’re missing it. “crony” capitalism is not what you are describing. crony capitalism means big business buys off politicians so laws that help them are passed. laissez faire means government stays out of it, crony capitalism means government is bought and paid for and is far too involved.
 
But advocates of the free market usually favour total laissez faire where the strongest in the market battle with the weaker and winner takes all. If anyone espouses free market capitalism they cannot then say it shouldn’t be a free market if it damages my business or complain when the government refuses to intervene in the market to make it better for them. That would only be a bit free when it suited. At best it would be a mixed economy with some social control and that control would per force involve regulation of income
I think you’ve set up a bit of a strawman there. I’m sure there are a few people who favor total “laissez faire”, but they tend to be teenage boys who’ve just read “Atlas Shrugs”. You still don’t appear to understand the difference between “free market capitalism” and “crony capitalism”. “Crony Capitalism” is when the government intervenes in the free market to benefit favored interests, such as an internet sales tax, which would benefit Amazon, by harming their smaller competitors, or a increased tax complexity, which benefits a companies like GE, Google, and Apple, who can afford to set up complex tax structures like the “Double Irish” and “Dutch Sandwich” to avoid US corporate taxes while their small competitors can’t.
 
But you seem to be supporting a “living wage.” How else do you determine a “living wage” other than need?
We don’t set one rate for one worker because they are the sole earner in a family and then pay less to a worker who might be bringing in a second income. It interests me greatly that only the poorest have to justify the level of their earning or their need for a pay increase. The richest don’t need untold millions either
 
We don’t set one rate for one worker because they are the sole earner in a family and then pay less to a worker who might be bringing in a second income. It interests me greatly that only the poorest have to justify the level of their earning or their need for a pay increase. The richest don’t need untold millions either
Everybody has to justify their wages. Try going into your bosses office and telling him you need a raise because you just bought a new car rather than because your great idea improved productivity made him and the shareholders more money.

Just as an aside, why do people get their panties all in a bunch over the CEO of WalMart making a couple million bucks a year to manage a multi-billion dollar corporation employing tens of thousands of people, but nobody cares about Tom Cruise making $20M to star in some shaky-cam’d schlockfest that gives everybody a headache?
 
We don’t set one rate for one worker because they are the sole earner in a family and then pay less to a worker who might be bringing in a second income. It interests me greatly that only the poorest have to justify the level of their earning or their need for a pay increase. The richest don’t need untold millions either
No, at every level we pay based on an agreement between the employer and employee. From richest to poorest. From mid-level managers on up to the CEO (unless he’s the also the owner) the pay is based on a negotiation when hired. That’s why salaries at those levels can vary greatly even for two people doing the exact same job. One person was better at negotiating than the next (strict taboo not to compare salaries for that very reason).

Now, unions arose in response to the situation you describe. Employers who had a monopoly on jobs and therefore paid pitiful wages. Unions than formed to create a counter-- they had the monopoly on the workers. So, workers in unions don’t negotiate their salaries individually-- but they are negotiated. Unfortunately the downside as unions became more powerful was they often became more interested in perpetuating the union’s existence and paying the union office holders a lot, vice representing the worker’s interests. Or getting involved in political issues not related to the workers at all.

So, should part-time single workers be paid less? Well, shouldn’t that kind of be up to them? As a high-schooler I was interested in saving a bit of money towards college, putting gas in my car, buying presents for the family at holidays and a bit of entertainment money. I was willing to work for less because I needed less. Fast food chains in the US were based on a business model matching the fast food chains need for cheap labor not requiring much training and therefore a tolerance for high turnover rates with a pool of workers with little skill, low income needs, and poor work habits due to inexperience. It was a win-win.

Raise the wage considerably, automation becomes far more attractive to the business.

I agree that someone shouldn’t open a business unless they can meet the projected payroll. But, they have to have some kind of business model indicating what they can afford to pay to make a profit. Most small business owners put everything on the line, their homes, their life savings, their own effort despite the fact a high percentage will fail. They do so because the risk/reward to them justifies it-- even though the reward of actually making a decent profit for themselves is 5 or 10 years in the future. The employee doesn’t take that risk. So, the higher you raise the minimum the less businesses can actually make a profit and the risk becomes higher to someone considering opening their own. Make it too high, and those folks invest their money instead of creating jobs through opening a business. Or, they will not hire inexperienced folks and take a chance on them, or hire folks with the intention of training them into the job. A plumbing company near me cancelled their apprenticeship program. They will only hire journeyman and above based on the new minimum wage. The cost of training an apprentice is far too high, the company loses too much money since they can’t produce enough.
 
Raise the wage considerably, automation becomes far more attractive to the business.
I remember, not too long ago, reading about a Robot Burger Flipper that could make over 300 gourmet burgers per hour, to the diner’s specification.
 
We don’t set one rate for one worker because they are the sole earner in a family and then pay less to a worker who might be bringing in a second income.
Then explain what is meant by “living wage” as you understand it. I agree, we don’t set the rate because they are the sole earner. So when people advocate for a “living wage” what do they mean?
It interests me greatly that only the poorest have to justify the level of their earning or their need for a pay increase. The richest don’t need untold millions either
Everyone at all levels needs to justify their level of earning and desire for a pay raise. I do. I have a performance review every single year that justifies my position and the corresponding wage. I have a friend that is the VP of Sales for a midsize company. When he got hired he had justify his desired wage. And every year he has to justify his bonus. And neither one of us are poor. And if neither one of us can justify our wage, we get fired, then we make nothing.

It also goes a bit farther than this. We’ve had applicants that have bounced from job to job (one guy had positions at 3 different companies in one year). Even though he had the same total experience as another guy we recently hired, his pay was lower because he was a risky hire.

There’s more to how wages are determined than just greed. It’s about paying people based upon their contribution to the company. They way I see it, companies trade wages for productivity. The more productive you are, the more wages you get. It’s also about supply and demand. Finding a software engineer with 20+ years of experience is a lot harder to find than a college new grad. And were I to compare a new college grad with a bachelor’s vs a new college grad with a PhD, neither with any corporate experience I’d pay the PhD more because 1) he’s proven he can work hard (getting a PhD isn’t easy), 2) he’s proven he committed, and 3) he has a lot more potential. Even as new hires they are probably doing the same work, but the PhD has more potential and is worth the extra investment.

You should spend some time in management and you’ll see how this works. Spend some time negotiating salaries and you’ll see how it works. In general, it is not about corporate greed.
 
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