Ukraine (cont.)

[Ridgerunner]

Precisely - got it in one! Particularly so, from Putin’s viewpoint, when the West - for reasons best known to themselves - helped to ‘choose’ the ‘interim’ government.

I think you misunderstood Josie’s meaning.

If the west does not aid those who wish to escape the clutches of a despotic power, then whom? Yanukovych was a Russian agent who acted to sell his own people to the very power that committed genocide against them in the past and has now conquered part of their country. Ukrainians protested against that. Yanko/Putin shot a number of them, then fled to Putin’s protection.

And what, then, were Ukrainians to do about having a government? Few of the world’s peoples would have done a better job of reconstituting a government in the face of that and of constant Russian sabotage of their efforts. We should be praising them, not condemning them.

Again, we must remember that Putin supports the “right wing extremists” all over Europe in order to give him a reason to “save” various peoples by stepping in to rule them. An old, old trick.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Oh, you mean he and the interim Ukrainian government are not fascist bigots out to destroy the Russians, who knew!!!

Yes, my thoughts exactly. Yatseniuk was given some time with HH Pope Francis, on the day before today’s double canonization, so the Pope is obviously worried for Ukraine’s Catholics and Ukraine in general; after all, Pope Francis was friends with the Head of today’s Ukrainian Catholic Church, Major Archbishop Shevchuk, back in the day in Argentina when both resided there. I believe they were and are quite close.

After the Papal meeting, Ukraine’s Prime Minister Yatseniuk along with Major Archbishop Shevchuk participated in a prayer service for those who were killed on the Maidan.

It bears repeating that the Ukrainian Catholic Church, the Roman Catholic Church in Ukraine, the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches (even the one under Moscow), plus the leaders of the Protestant and Jewish and Muslim communities’ have all come out against separatism in Ukraine.

 

[pepipop]

I think you misunderstood Josie’s meaning.

If the west does not aid those who wish to escape the clutches of a despotic power, then whom? Yanukovych was a Russian agent who acted to sell his own people to the very power that committed genocide against them in the past and has now conquered part of their country. Ukrainians protested against that. Yanko/Putin shot a number of them, then fled to Putin’s protection.

And what, then, were Ukrainians to do about having a government? Few of the world’s peoples would have done a better job of reconstituting a government in the face of that and of constant Russian sabotage of their efforts. We should be praising them, not condemning them.

Again, we must remember that Putin supports the “right wing extremists” all over Europe in order to give him a reason to “save” various peoples by stepping in to rule them. An old, old trick.

I did understand Josie’s meaning - as the saying goes ‘there are two sides to every story’. What Josie stated, is exactly what the pro-Russian Ukrainian citizens were saying after the overthrowing of the elected government and their people were threatened, harassed etc… it’s all documented on youtube.

Needless to say, I do not agree with extremity from either side in Ukraine but I am used to it, the UDA v IRA comes to mind. There will always be extremists to take up ‘their’ side in a civil conflict.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I did understand Josie’s meaning - as the saying goes ‘there are two sides to every story’. What Josie stated, is exactly what the pro-Russian Ukrainian citizens were saying after the overthrowing of the elected government and their people were threatened, harassed etc… it’s all documented on youtube.

Needless to say, I do not agree with extremity from either side in Ukraine but I am used to it, the UDA v IRA comes to mind. There will always be extremists to take up ‘their’ side of a civil conflict.

I think Josie can speak to this, but there is no possibility, given her other posts, that she intended to defend the Russian puppet, Yanukovych, or to condemn those who protested his rule.

It’s all very plain. A Russian-oriented leader tried to tie his country’s future to Putin’s Russia. People protested. He ran to his master’s protection. When that imperialist plan didn’t work, Putin seized Crimea by force, and is going to also seize Eastern Ukraine, probably Southern Ukraine and possibly the whole country.

There is absolutely no justification for Putin’s conquest of Ukraine.

 

[Miserissima]

Aw, man.

I can’t wait to hear the Russian Orthodox spin on the visit between the Pontiff and the Prime Minister.

 

[pepipop]

I think Josie can speak to this, but there is no possibility, given her other posts, that she intended to defend the Russian puppet, Yanukovych, or to condemn those who protested his rule.

It’s all very plain. A Russian-oriented leader tried to tie his country’s future to Putin’s Russia. People protested. He ran to his master’s protection. When that imperialist plan didn’t work, Putin seized Crimea by force, and is going to also seize Eastern Ukraine, probably Southern Ukraine and possibly the whole country.

There is absolutely no justification for Putin’s conquest of Ukraine.

Nope, the EU dropped the ball. They offered Yanukovich the sun, moon and stars. He, himself, in September 2013, stood for hours to persuade the government to go with the EU and not Russia. When he found out Ukraine would not automatically be a member of the EU, that the monies offered were being decreased after each discussion - then all back to Russia again. Riots (quite understandably as the citizens did not know what was going on behind the scenes), occurred. A coupe d’etat occurred aided by the West and hence Ukraine is in the state it is today.

Putin has no intention of taking over Ukraine. Crimea wanted out of Ukraine for years - so they made a ‘quick exit’ whilst under the democratically 'un-elected government.

 

[pepipop]

Aw, man.

I can’t wait to hear the Russian Orthodox spin on the visit between the Pontiff and the Prime Minister.

Well the Russian Orthodox may also not be too impressed by the ‘Kremlin controlled TV station,’ i.e. RT, transmitting ‘live’ coverage of the Pope’s Easter vigil service last week, and today full live coverage of the canonisation of PJPII and PJ23.

 

[josie_L]

Precisely - got it in one! Particularly so, from Putin’s viewpoint, when the West - for reasons best known to themselves - helped to ‘choose’ the ‘interim’ government.

You didn’t really answer my question, did you?? And this interim government was not “chosen” by the West per se, well, no more than Yanukovych’s government was “chosen” by Putin.

P.S. I believe that 75% of the government (while Yanukovych was in power) were from the south and east of the Ukraine, and a little over 40% were from Donetsk where Yanukovych came from.

 

[josie_L]

I did understand Josie’s meaning - as the saying goes ‘there are two sides to every story’. **What Josie stated, is exactly what the pro-Russian Ukrainian citizens were saying after the overthrowing of the elected government and their people were threatened, harassed etc… it’s all documented on youtube. **

Needless to say, I do not agree with extremity from either side in Ukraine but I am used to it, the UDA v IRA comes to mind. There will always be extremists to take up ‘their’ side in a civil conflict.

They were in no danger of being persecuted or killed, in fact, from the preponderance of evidence that I saw it was the pro-Russian crowds (backed up by Russia) that were intimidating and harassing and threatening many pro-Ukrainians, it’s all documented on Youtube.

P.S. Yes, the interim government is very extremist, i.e., visiting the pope and praying for peace, how scary!! Maybe they’ll go after Russia with crucifixes and holy water.

 

[josie_L]

I think you misunderstood Josie’s meaning.

If the west does not aid those who wish to escape the clutches of a despotic power, then whom? Yanukovych was a Russian agent who acted to sell his own people to the very power that committed genocide against them in the past and has now conquered part of their country. Ukrainians protested against that. Yanko/Putin shot a number of them, then fled to Putin’s protection.

And what, then, were Ukrainians to do about having a government? Few of the world’s peoples would have done a better job of reconstituting a government in the face of that and of constant Russian sabotage of their efforts. We should be praising them, not condemning them.

Again, we must remember that Putin supports the “right wing extremists” all over Europe in order to give him a reason to “save” various peoples by stepping in to rule them. An old, old trick.

Very well said, and my sentiments exactly.

 

[josie_L]

Nope, the EU dropped the ball. They offered Yanukovich the sun, moon and stars. He, himself, in September 2013, stood for hours to persuade the government to go with the EU and not Russia. When he found out Ukraine would not automatically be a member of the EU, that the monies offered were being decreased after each discussion - then all back to Russia again. Riots (quite understandably as the citizens did not know what was going on behind the scenes), occurred. A coupe d’etat occurred aided by the West and hence Ukraine is in the state it is today.

Putin has no intention of taking over Ukraine. Crimea wanted out of Ukraine for years - so they made a ‘quick exit’ whilst under the democratically 'un-elected government.

Well, you were wrong about Russian soldiers and operatives not being in Crimea (based on the fact that at that time Putin denied that Russian troops were in Crimea, and well you took him at his word), so it’s not very comforting when you say Putin has no intention of taking over the Ukraine, as if this is outside the realm of possibility for such a lying scheming megalomaniacal autocrat like Putin (with a bank account to prove that he’s a crook).

 

[Tomdstone]

A coupe d’etat occurred aided by the West and hence Ukraine is in the state it is today.

That is a real tragedy that this is how it occurred. My personal opinion is that foreigners and foreign states should not involve themselves in coup d’états which inevitably result in innocent people being killed and families destroyed. I am for peace and for upholding the results of democratic elections which were held under peaceful conditions.

 

[Seamus_L]

At least 14 people were injured in Kharkiv, when soccer hooligans who support the acting government in Kiev, attacked pro-Russian demonstrators youtube.com/watch?v=uFqca0jFIX0&feature=youtu.be

 

[KyivAndrew]

At least 14 people were injured in Kharkiv, when soccer hooligans who support the acting government in Kiev, attacked pro-Russian demonstrators

You know it would help if you provided some background as to the youtube video you were showing and where you got the link from.

Two weeks ago pro-Ukrainian activists were set upon and beaten violently by pro-Russian activists in Kharkiv. Kharkiv is supposed to follow Donetsk and Luhansk in the Kremlin’s strategy to destabilize Ukraine.

The Kharkiv separatist movement is supported in part by such odious figures as Yanukovych’s son who robbed Ukraine blind, as well as Oleg Tsaryov, and Viktor Medvedchuk, the latter being good friends with the unrepentant KGB man Putin and with an odious history with the KGB himself. Communists and pro-Russian bikers are also involved in the Kharkiv separatist movement.
pravda.com.ua/news/2014/04/28/7023818/

A public march was planned for today for Ukrainian Unity through Kharkiv. 7,000 people took part, among them football fans.

The Ukrainian national anthem was sung, Ukrainian songs, and a gigantic Ukrainian flag was carried through Kharkiv. According to the official report of the Internal Affairs in Kharkiv, which remains apolitical, “as soon as the Unity March was finished” aggressive pro-Russian separatists and supporters of federalization attempted to attack participants in the Ukrainian Unity March. Rocks and sticks were thrown at them by the pro-Russian separatists and shots were heard. Nobody forced these people to attack the Ukrainian Unity March which was going peaceful up until then. The football fans then reacted.

pravda.com.ua/news/2014/04/27/7023811/

pravda.com.ua/news/2014/04/27/7023798/

Among the injured I’m not sure how many are from each camp but a human life is a human life, and Putin’s policies of violently destabilizing Ukraine is only leading to more bloodshed, not that Putin would care about that in my opinion. It serves his imperialistic purposes.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I think you misunderstood Josie’s meaning.

If the west does not aid those who wish to escape the clutches of a despotic power, then whom? Yanukovych was a Russian agent who acted to sell his own people to the very power that committed genocide against them in the past and has now conquered part of their country. Ukrainians protested against that. Yanko/Putin shot a number of them, then fled to Putin’s protection.

And what, then, were Ukrainians to do about having a government? Few of the world’s peoples would have done a better job of reconstituting a government in the face of that and of constant Russian sabotage of their efforts. We should be praising them, not condemning them.

Again, we must remember that Putin supports the “right wing extremists” all over Europe in order to give him a reason to “save” various peoples by stepping in to rule them. An old, old trick.

 

[Robert_Bay]

Threads are closed when they reach 1,000 posts for technical reasons.

Thank you all who contributed.