Despite Concerns about Governance, Ukrainians Want to Remain One Country Many Leery of Russian Influence, as Putin Gets Boost at HomeFortunately, people of Donbas do not think like you, please listen to GRU professional pleading people to join separatists:
youtube.com/watch?v=80YfSwCHQhk
Very few people want to join separatists, except, of course, criminals who are just eager to get access to weapons.
A clear majority of Ukrainians agree that their country should remain a single, unified state, according to a pair of new surveys conducted by the Pew Research Center in Ukraine and Russia – after Crimea’s annexation by Russia, but prior to recent violence in Odessa and other cities. The survey in Ukraine also finds a clearly negative reaction to the role Russia is playing in the country. By contrast, the poll in Russia reveals a public that firmly backs Vladimir Putin and Crimea’s secession from Ukraine.
Among Ukrainians, 77% say Ukraine should remain united, compared with 14% who think regions should be permitted to secede if they so desire. In Ukraine’s west, which includes the central region around Kyiv (Kiev), as well as portions of the country that border Poland, Slovakia and Hungary, more than nine-in-ten (93%) think their nation should remain unified. A smaller majority (70%) in the country’s east – which includes areas along the Black Sea and the border with Russia – also prefer unity.
The clear majority in Eastern Ukraine wish to remain in Ukraine! But of course, in some areas these people are scared, with pro-Russian gunmen claiming that only Russia, or independence, or something like that be acceptable. I’ve read stories on the Ukrainian press about how gunmen in Donetsk showed up armed at factories to force the workers to vote in yesterday’s faux referendum. Of course people were allowed to vote as many times as they wished and tens of thousands of ballots had been conveniently marked “yes” the Day Before the Referendum when people were supposed to vote.
There never was enough civilian support for the separatists (some of whom are actually Russian) in the Eastern Ukraine, i.e., all these separatists are doing is causing violent mayhem in the name of their ultra-nationalistic ideologies so at to deter Ukraine from becoming independent of Russia.
There are all sorts of justifications nations can come up with when they want to seize the territory of another state. And every conquerer does that, and going in to “protect” this grouop or that from the actions of the other nation’s government, is one of those. Certainly Russia offered and now again offers justifications for conquest. Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine did not attack Russia. Russia attacked them, invaded them and added their territory to Russia.Which three countries did Russia “conquer?”
Certainly not Crimea, which voted to join Russia AFTER the Western-backed coup against the democratically-elected President of Ukraine forced Russia to secure her national security interests there.
Perhaps you refer to the 2008 war with Georgia. Anyone who impartially studied that conflict would know that Georgia fired the first shots. That was a mistake and Russia quickly ended the conflict. If Russia had been interested in “conquest” as you continually assert on this thread, then why did Russia not take all of Georgia?
And I am still waiting for you to answer a simple question, Ridgerunner: Do you support the current authorities in Kiev?
There is plenty of support to secede from the illegal and violent Kiev Junta.There never was enough civilian support for the separatists (some of whom are actually Russian) in the Eastern Ukraine, i.e., all these separatists are doing is causing violent mayhem in the name of their ultra-nationalistic ideologies so at to deter Ukraine from becoming independent of Russia.
There is plenty of support to secede from the illegal and violent Kiev Junta. (from the legitimate government in Kyiv)
No, there isn’t.
“Blame the victim” at it’s peak of perfection. Russia tries to take over a country interally. Millions of people protest it. Yanukovych shoots a few of them and then runs to his master, Putin. He and his son are now aiding Russia in seizing parts of Ukraine.There is plenty of support to secede from the illegal and violent Kiev Junta.
That is a incorrect statement and is one that is not based on the historical reality.There are all sorts of justifications nations can come up with when they want to seize the territory of another state. And every conquerer does that, and going in to “protect” this grouop or that from the actions of the other nation’s government, is one of those. Certainly Russia offered and now again offers justifications for conquest. Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine did not attack Russia. Russia attacked them, invaded them and added their territory to Russia.
In other words, you support the current authorities in Kiev and the illegitimate “election” that they are going to hold on May 25th.I support the territorial integrity of Ukraine, governed by the Ukrainian parliament, the temporary executive, and whoever wins the May 25 election.
Continuing to claim that Putin is “conquering” and “seizing” territory is a rhetorical word-game, given that you refuse to say anything about the true seizure of Ukraine by the violent, undemocratic Maidan.At what point do you believe it appropriate for Putin to stop seizing territory? Would you give him all of Ukraine? Poland? What about the Baltic states? At what territorial point do you think opposition to Putin’s seizure of territory to appropriately stop?
Technically speaking, Yanukovych is still the real President of Ukraine and the real Commander in Chief. Let that sink in for a second. That’s why so many Ukrainian troops in Crimea and elsewhere in Ukraine have refused to obey the illegal orders issued by Kiev.“Blame the victim” at it’s peak of perfection. Russia tries to take over a country interally. Millions of people protest it. Yanukovych shoots a few of them and then runs to his master, Putin. He and his son are now aiding Russia in seizing parts of Ukraine.
Well, when one country places its agents and military into another country and then annexes that other country’s territory, most would understand that as “conquest”, no matter what kind of fig leaf one tries to cover it with.That is a incorrect statement and is one that is not based on the historical reality.
I suggest that you study the timeline of the events in Georgia and Moldova, neither of which Putin “conquered.” You are throwing around that term “conquer” quite loosely, Ridgerunner.
The timeline of events in Ukraine should be fresh for all of us and to pretend that Putin “conquered” Ukraine or Crimea is humorous given the sequence of events.
In other words, you support the current authorities in Kiev and the illegitimate “election” that they are going to hold on May 25th.
Now, for you to continue to demonize Putin and Russia (which is well-documented on this thread) given that you support a “government” in Kiev that violently and unconstitutionally seized power, is the epitome of hypocrisy and I can no longer take your arguments against Putin and Russia seriously.
I wonder if you would support an American Maidan aimed at removing Obama from office? Would you find that acceptable?
Continuing to claim that Putin is “conquering” and “seizing” territory is a rhetorical word-game, given that you refuse to say anything about the true seizure of Ukraine by the violent, undemocratic Maidan.
If the Crimean referendum was a fraud, then what was the Maidan? LOL!Crimean “referendum” was a fraud and everybody in the world knows it.
Whoa, let’s stop right there!Would I support peoples’ right to protest against Obama? Definitely. Would I support removal of obama by protests? No, as little as I like him. But if Obama tried to sell the U.S. out to, say, Iran, as Yanukovych tried with Russia…
The maidan protests were protests against being economically tied to Russia and isolated from the far more prosperous west. The Crimean referendum was a fraud, engineered by Russia as an excuse to incorporate Crimea into Russia, which has been done. There is a difference.If the Crimean referendum was a fraud, then what was the Maidan? LOL!
The ones pretending that the Crimean referendum was a fraud are the same ones who supported the violent, undemocratic, and truly fraudulent removal from power of Yanukovych. That strikes me as just a wee bit rich.
Whoa, let’s stop right there!
The only ones pretending that Yanukovych “sold out” Ukraine are the Western leaders that had the most to lose over the perfectly legitimate and democratic business deal that Yanukovych made with Russia. Ukrainians and Russians were the winners in that deal and the EU was the loser and instead of making a counter-offer to the Russian discount, the West decided that the violent removal of Yanukovych was the answer. What a mistake!
But your answer to the Obama hypothetical is quite telling: on one hand you are implying that it is okay to violently remove a corrupt (allegedly) President like Yanukovych but on the other hand you won’t agree that it is okay to violently remove a corrupt President like Obama.
You can’t play it both ways.
It seems somewhat ironic for you to state that Ridgerunner is throwing the term “conquer” loosely, when you’ve thrown words like “fascist”, “neo-Nazis” and even “diabolical” to describe the interim government in Kyiv, and this without support, i.e., I have asked which members of the government are fascists and/or neo-Nazis, and although I believe pepipop responded with naming three or four people/ministers (whose fascism is alluded to by virtue of their being members of the Svoboda, which is not, by the way, a fascist party), this does not mean that the whole government is fascist, i.e., this is hyperbole. Moreover, only Russian news outlets refer to the government in Kyiv as fascist, and that’s only because Putin needs a valid excuse to convince Russians of the legitimacy of his invasion of the Ukraine.That is a incorrect statement and is one that is not based on the historical reality.
I suggest that you study the timeline of the events in Georgia and Moldova, neither of which Putin “conquered.” You are throwing around that term “conquer” quite loosely, Ridgerunner.
In four years, Svoboda has gone from a fringe party - receiving less than 2% in presidential elections - to a major player in Ukrainian politics. Its members control six positions in the new government, including deputy prime minister, general prosecutor and defence.
But Svoboda members come in different shapes and sizes, with many people joining for its anti-corruption stance. Lately it has been toning down its nationalist rhetoric, in what may be an effort to go more mainstream. Moreover, it supports EU integration - an exception among Europe’s far right.
Ultra-nationalist parties, such as France’s National Front, are a fact of Europe’s present political landscape. Take out the word “Ukrainian” and many of Svoboda’s beliefs are widespread throughout the region and beyond. Especially in Russia.
Here’s a list of ministers of the Interim government in Ukraine:
The Maidan protests were a Western-manufactured and managed protest (and continue to be so, especially in the Western media) engineered to remove Yanukovych from power once it became clear that the West was going to lose big time on the Ukrainian-Russian Gas Deal. The will and interests of ordinary Ukrainians was not and is not a priority for the U.S. State Department. Victoria Nuland noted that over the years, the United States has invested over 5 Billion dollars in Ukraine in order to foster “democracy.” Yet when Ukrainian democratically decided to scrap EU Gas for cheaper Russian Gas, those 5 Billion dollars were in danger of being flushed down the toilet, and the West decided then and there that Yanukovych had to go.The maidan protests were protests against being economically tied to Russia and isolated from the far more prosperous west.
No it wasn’t.The Crimean referendum was a fraud…
Nope.engineered by Russia as an excuse to incorporate Crimea into Russia, which has been done.
Yes he was.Yanukovych was not “violently” removed.
Murdering police officers by burning them alive and shooting them in the back is in fact diabolical.It seems somewhat ironic for you to state that Ridgerunner is throwing the term “conquer” loosely, when you’ve thrown words like “fascist”, “neo-Nazis” and even “diabolical” to describe the interim government in Kyiv
It really does give “the west” too much credit to maintain that any combination of western influences could get millions of Ukrainians, or citizens of any country, to go out and protest anything at all. Even radical Imams in the Middle East can’t generate that kind of crowd against Israel. It doesn’t even come close to being credible. Ukrainians protested Russian domination because it has had plenty of experience of that over the past decades; the Terror Famine, irradiation from the shoddy Russian reactor at Chernobyl along with the illnesses and cancers caused by that, genocide, exile, persecution of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Orthodox and the Greek Orthodox churches.The Maidan protests were a Western-manufactured and managed protest (and continue to be so, especially in the Western media) engineered to remove Yanukovych from power once it became clear that the West was going to lose big time on the Ukrainian-Russian Gas Deal. The will and interests of ordinary Ukrainians was not and is not a priority for the U.S. State Department. Victoria Nuland noted that over the years, the United States has invested over 5 Billion dollars in Ukraine in order to foster “democracy.” Yet when Ukrainian democratically decided to scrap EU Gas for cheaper Russian Gas, those 5 Billion dollars were in danger of being flushed down the toilet, and the West decided then and there that Yanukovych had to go.
What a mistake!
What was the ‘price’ of independence the EU had to learn from getting its’ gas provided by Russia?It really does give “the west” too much credit to maintain that any combination of western influences could get millions of Ukrainians, or citizens of any country, to go out and protest anything at all. Even radical Imams in the Middle East can’t generate that kind of crowd against Israel. It doesn’t even come close to being credible. Ukrainians protested Russian domination because it has had plenty of experience of that over the past decades; the Terror Famine, irradiation from the shoddy Russian reactor at Chernobyl along with the illnesses and cancers caused by that, genocide, exile, persecution of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Orthodox and the Greek Orthodox churches.
And so what if the U.S. invested in fostering democracy where it can? Probably the U.S. and other western countries should have invested more in that Soviet-destroyed economy.
EU gas? The EU buys gas from Russia itself; a mistake on their part which, hopefully, they will see a need to remedy. Western Europe has suffered from an excess of environmentalism. As a result, it has not developed its own gas resources even though it has them in sufficient quantity to do without Russian gas. Hopefully, the EU countries will now have learned the price of dependence on Russian supplies.
But that was not at the directive of the current government, i.e., it was the last government under Yanukovych which initiated the violence that set in motion a revolution, i.e., you forget that the brutal violence committed by law enforcers, Berkut, and the titushskis were just as diabolical and absolutely unnecessary (Nov. 30th). Not to mention that that there is evidence that Russian operatives were masquerading as civilians and Berkut officers during the protests. Moreover, many of the victims of the revolution were Maidan protestors who were unarmed, i.e., they were not equipped like the current pro-Russian insurgents, who from the very get go used violence/terror to support their cause, with guns, tanks, launchers, stun grenades. . . etc., supplied by Russia.Murdering police officers by burning them alive and shooting them in the back is in fact diabolical.
Yes, I’m seriously contending that not all right sector parties are neo-Nazis (just like not all left sector parties are Communists), moreover, are you prepared to admit that the members of the right sector party in Russia are also neo-Nazis, because if not, why the double standard?Are you seriously pretending that Right Sector and Svoboda are not neo-Nazi organizations?
Dependence, which Europe can now see can be a lever of dominance. Putin has tipped his hand, and the world can see it. But I suppose he figured absorption of Crimea and whatever other parts of Ukrain he wants to conquer, are worth it.What was the ‘price’ of independence the EU had to learn from getting its’ gas provided by Russia?