Ukraine Election Affects ROC & RCC

[HagiaSophia]

Cardinal Husar said the contested election poses a problem for the Vatican’s ecumenical experts, who have been trying to improve dialogue with the Russian Orthodox Church. Russia has backed Yanukovych, and Russian Orthodox leaders in Ukraine have not joined other Christian leaders in protesting the election as a violation of human rights, Cardinal Husar said.

“You have to understand that for Russia to lose Ukraine is a terrible loss. So they will try to do anything not to lose us. They do not hesitate to use the (Russian Orthodox) church for this purpose,” he said.

“I suspect there certainly are those in the Vatican who are sensitive to this problem,” he said. “Those who want to maintain a running dialogue with the Russian Orthodox Church naturally are not at ease about the dismal situation.”

Cardinal Husar said the election was marred by a group of current leaders who have “accumulated riches and are trying to protect those riches at any cost,” using autocratic means to try to crush democratic expression.

The cardinal said a new election should be monitored by international experts, such as monitors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. He said that in the previous election, many deceased people turned up on voting rolls while legitimate citizens – like himself – were not listed and could not cast a vote.

Cardinal Husar warned that the current group of Ukrainian leaders were desperate to hold onto power. He said it was still possible that they would deliberately provoke a violent confrontation with demonstrators who have filled squares peacefully to protest the earlier vote.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0406639.htm

 

[Maccabees]

The Russian Orthodox Church remains what is has been a yes boy for the Communist party. The brave men and women that defended Orthodoxy and would not compromise with the Communist were wiped out By Stalin and the chickens with no backbones took over leadership since then more compromisers have taken over church leadership. Where were there voices in the face of communism. The catholic church was vocal till the fall of communism the RO was just a yes boy. The UKraininan Orthodox church had independance of the RO and often disagree with each other there are like 3 guys claiming to be the real Ukrainina Bishop. What a mess! The Ukraninina catholic church has been explding since the fall of the Soviet union and enjoys good reletions with the Ukrainina Orthdox church. Our realtions with the RO remains unpopular and not ecunmeical on any level. That shouldn’t affect us to much in the Ukraine in fact that makes us more popular in the country which is becoming increasingly anti-Russian. IT makes us less popular with 2 increasingly corrupt institutions Putin and his KGB style rule and the RO church which in practice recognizes other Orthodox churches as less than equal and the RC in a state of contempt.
The current state of affiars has set us back from all the early progress under Gorbachav and John Paul 2.

 

[JW10631]

It should be noted that the situation in Ukraine affects the Ukranian Greek Catholic Church and the Catholic Church in general, since she is one of its Particular Churches. They are not Latin (Roman) Catholic but are Catholic nonetheless.

 

[Maccabees]

JW10631:

It should be noted that the situation in Ukraine affects the Ukranian Greek Catholic Church and the Catholic Church in general, since she is one of its Particular Churches. They are not Latin (Roman) Catholic but are Catholic nonetheless.

The designation is simply Ukranian Catholic Church.
There is no Greek in the title they are Byzantine Rite.
Just want to clarify as it can be misleading.
The ecclesiastical juridictions are Greek, Ukraninan, Ruthenian, Russian, etc
Thus no Ukranian Greek church that would be 2 juridictions not one.
Its the Ukraninan Catholic Church from the Byzantine Rite.
There are Roman Catholics in the Latin Rite in the Ukraine as well but they are the minority. Catholcism has been growing in the Ukraine since the downfall of the Soviet Emprie the church was often persecuted in favor of the Orthodox Church which often cooperated with the Soviets. Many converts out of respect to the catholic church strong stance against the communist converted from the Ukranian Orthodox church to the Ukranian Catholic Church. There are now over 5 million catholic faithful there making them the largest Catholic Church in the former Soviet Union and the Largest Eastern Catholic Church in the world. Many of our Eastern churches are shrinking and in danger of exticntion this church is going into the opposite direction as the faithful grow becasue of the catholic church never ending strong stance against communism.

 

[GAssisi]

The ROC’s involvement in this matter would not exactly be in the role of “yes-man.” Ecclesiastically speaking (but in a matter de jure humano), they have a vested interest themselves in having a pro-Russian candidate elected. We must remember that Russian Orthodoxy is still very much embroiled in caesero-papism. A boon to the government is a benefice to them. The much-hoped for autocephalous Ukranian Church will unite Catholics and Orthodox in the region much more closely. If judging by the unfortunate close-mindedness of Father Ambrose, the ROC wants to avoid this. She can use a pro-Russian candidate/official to whip the Orthodox into line.

In my opinion, given the history of the ROC, their involvement is understandable. However, it cannot evoke any sympathy, especially as human rights are involved.

Greg

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Maccabees:

The designation is simply Ukranian Catholic Church.
There is no Greek in the title they are Byzantine Rite.
Just want to clarify as it can be misleading…

Well, the above is inaccurate and quite misleading.

If you deny them the title of Greek-Catholic Church, then you would, by law, deny them title to a huge amount of real estate in the Ukraine.

You see, prior to the 1917 Revolution their official appellation, approved by both the Vatican and the Russian Government, was the Greek-Catholic Church and all property was registered under this name.

In order to reclaim, after Perestroika and even until today, the properties which they had at the time of the 1917 Revolution, they must maintain a claim on the land titles by maintaining a continuity of identity - Greek-Catholic.

If any future name change is made legally, it seems that they will chose to re-register their Church as “The Church of Kyiev.”

 

[Maccabees]

Fr Ambrose:

Well, the above is inaccurate and quite misleading.

If you deny them the title of Greek-Catholic Church, then you would, by law, deny them title to a huge amount of real estate in the Ukraine.

You see, prior to the 1917 Revolution their official appellation, approved by both the Vatican and the Russian Government, was the Greek-Catholic Church and all property was registered under this name.

In order to reclaim, after Perestroika and even until today, the properties which they had at the time of the 1917 Revolution, they must maintain a claim on the land titles by maintaining a continuity of identity - Greek-Catholic.

If any future name change is made legally, it seems that they will chose to re-register their Church as “The Church of Kyiev.”

Your right that the official title used in the Ukraine
is this Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
Eastern Byzantine Rite.
In the United States since we don’t have to please communist and orthodox interest it is routinely shortened to the less confusing Ukrainian Catholic Church.
Sorry for the misinformation I assumed they were labeled under clean juridiction lines like many of the other Eastern rite churches however with the complications of dealing with the Soviets and all the long name is legally necessary.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GAssisi:

In my opinion, given the history of the ROC, their involvement is understandable. However, it cannot evoke any sympathy, especially as human rights are involved

Human rights are indeed involved, but some people are so afflicted with what you call “unfortunate close-mindedness” that they refuse to understand a very complex situation.

This is an extract from a paper delivered on 7 October 2002 at the Catholic University of St Thomas (St Paul, Minessota, USA), and repeated on 9 October 2002 at the Catholic University of America (Washington D.C).

It details the denial of religious and human rights to the Orthodox.

The complete article is located at
orthodoxeurope.org/ecurel/000001.php
Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: Prospects for Catholic-Orthodox Relations

'January 1990 saw the creation of the so-called Quadrennial Commission, which comprised representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate, the Roman Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the Eastern Rite Catholics from Western Ukraine. The Commission began to discuss concrete cases of **human rights violations ** during the campaign launched by the Uniates.

In March 1990, the Commission developed basic principles for the
distribution of the property between the Greek Catholics and the Orthodox. It was agreed that, where there are two churches, one should be given to the Greek Catholics and another one remain Orthodox; where there is only one church, it should belong to the majority group, which must in this case help the minority find or build a suitable place of worship.

However, on 13 March 1990, the Greek Catholics unilaterally left the Commission.

From then on the seizure of the Orthodox churches (some of them had belonged to the Orthodox even before the Union of 1596) assumed an avalanche-like character. In many places violent methods were employed by the Greek Catholics as they seized Orthodox churches and expelled parishioners from their places of worship. Tensions between the Orthodox and the Greek Catholics led to clashes and mass disorders. By the end of 1990, most churches in Lvov, Ternopol and Ivano-Frankovsk had been captured and by the end of 1991, 597 churches had been taken from the Orthodox…’

Please note that this is a part of a lecture in 2002 delivered at *Catholic * universities in America

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Maccabees:

Many of our Eastern churches are shrinking and in danger of exticntion this church is going into the opposite direction as the faithful grow becasue of the catholic church never ending strong stance against communism.

Statistics supplied by the Vatican’s *Annuario Pontifico * do not bear this out.

Between 2000 and 2004 the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church has undergone a decline in membership of 16% (840,000 members.)

2000 - 5,159,000 members

2002 - 4,366,000

2004 - 4,321,000

Source:

Annuario Pontifico
cnewa.org/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat04.pdf

During the same period (2000-2004) the Melkite Greek Catholics increased by 90,000.

The Malabar Catholic Church increased by 350,000.

The Coptic Catholic Church increased by 45,000.

The Chaldean Catholic Church increased by 60,000.

---

In the United States, the Ukrainian Catholic Church is in decline.

See
ukrweekly.com/Archive/1997/439717.shtml

1972 - 284,678 Ukrainian Catholic faithful in the United States.

1997 - (25 years later) the total is 123,194.

This is a decrease of 43%.

 

[Maccabees]

As a general rule yes many of of Eastern churches are loosing members you conveniently left out

These Eastern Churches that are loosing members.

The Ethiopian/Eritrean Catholic Church

The Syro-Malankara Catholic Church

The Syrian Catholic Church

The Maronite Catholic Church

The Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church

The Romanian Greek Catholic Church

The Bulgarian Byzantine Catholic Church

The Italo-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church

The Hungarian Byzantine Catholic Church

The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church

Has endured a lot of growth during the initial downfall of communism.

There was an initla explosian like I said in 1990 **707,940 members

**To a high in 2000 of **5,159,633 that is incredible growth.

This was the last year I had in mind I had not seen the new numbers which represent a drop

In 2004 **4,321,508 still a lot better than the heyday of the iron curtain but even these numbers might be slightly askew **Major Archeparchy of Lviv, Ukraine was broken up into new

*Eparchy there have been 4 new added since 2000 thus in *1,607,000 members now 650,000

In the same Eparchy as memberhsip had dispersed some may have not resigned on official church records. So the decline may not be as much as the numbers reflect. We will know for sure in few more years. But there could be a slight drop.

Still since the downfall of communism this has been the Eastern Rites fastest growing church even including the decline recently. you metnioned has enjoyed the 3-4 million growth number the Ukrainian church has had since the downfall of communism.
The churches you give have growth in the thousands not millions.
And yes many but thankfully not all of our other Eastern Rite churches are in decline depsite you not including them on your list.

**

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Maccabees:

And yes many but thankfully not all of our other Eastern Rite churches are in decline depsite you not including them on your list.

If you look at the stats, the figures given for the minor Eastern Rite Churches show membership decreases of only a few thousand. I did not take these small fluctuations as significant evidence of their decline?

But the 18% drop for the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (from 5,159,000 to 4,321,000 in a four year period, from 2000 to 2004) is a rate of decrease which should have any Greek Catholic bishop worried.

cnewa.org/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat04.pdf

The Eastern Catholic Churches 2004
Source: Annuario Pontifico

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“All your robes are fragrant with *myrrh * and aloes and cassia; from palaces adorned with ivory the music of the strings makes you glad.” ~ Psalm 45:8

 

[Maccabees]

Fr Ambrose:

If you look at the stats, the figures given for the minor Eastern Rite Churches show membership decreases of only a few thousand. I did not take these small fluctuations as significant evidence of their decline?

But the 18% drop for the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (from 5,159,000 to 4,321,000 in a four year period, from 2000 to 2004) is a rate of decrease which should have any Greek Catholic bishop worried.

cnewa.org/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat04.pdf

The Eastern Catholic Churches 2004
Source: Annuario Pontifico

---

“All your robes are fragrant with *myrrh *and aloes and cassia; from palaces adorned with ivory the music of the strings makes you glad.” ~ Psalm 45:8

Oh wait a minute I show churches on the decline and it doesn’t count because its in the thousands and you show the Coptic
Catholic Church as evidence as the church is growing? Hey their growth is the thousands as well. Your such a hypocrite you as always got to be right about something. More eastern catholic churches are decreasing than increasing granted its usually in the thousands but that is because most eastern church are in the thousands or a million or so.
As far as thhe Ukrainina church when you grow from from 700,000 thousand to 5 million in 10 years I don’t care what what you say that is incredibe growth that the Orthodox would envy. The recent reversal might be due to the eparchy break up and restructuring the people just haven’t been reregisterd. Also when you have such sudden burst of growth their is bound to be
retraction at some point after the excitement of the post-Soviet era
some people attend church during the exciting resurgance and after some years its not exciting to them anymore and they loose interest fundie churches have this phenomina after their crusades they just do a better job of rebuilding up new reasons for excitement to come back to the church. Catholics and Orthodox don’t do a good job of this we failed the marketing class protestants went to. Of course any decline is concerning but there is such things as quality of the spiritual life of the church goer which statistics can’t judge. And the ORthodox Church in the Ukraine noticed the mass conversions to Catholcism in some parts of the Western Ukraine. I am sure they have countered with reasons to go back to the Orthodox communion they are the dominant religion in the area still and they are virtually a monolith in the Soviet symphathetic east Ukraine in the West Catholics are a competetive minority. The Ukraine church was deepley divided after the Soviet demise they are now attempting to have and autocephalous church.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Maccabees:

Oh wait a minute I show churches on the decline and it doesn’t count because its in the thousands and you show the Coptic
Catholic Church as evidence as the church is growing? Hey their growth is the thousands as well.

The growth of the Coptic Catholic Church is notable because there is persecution of Christians in Egypt. The same goes for the Chaldean Catholic Church.

Your such a hypocrite

Come on over to the new thread on original sin. Two of the contributors there are saying awful things about me too.

 

[Maccabees]

Fr Ambrose:

The growth of the Coptic Catholic Church is notable because there is persecution of Christians in Egypt. The same goes for the Chaldean Catholic Church.

Come on over to the new thread on original sin. Two of the contributors there are saying awful things about me too.

No thanks I have no personal agenda against you. I just thought your presentation of the facts were askew and unfair. Most churces were on the decline and those on the upswing except for Malabar Catholics were extremely small. Also I still think the Ukrainian church rapid growth from 1990-2000 was remarkable and the best example of church growth in the east. I was not aware of the recent decline in the last few years but even given those losses from the last few years from the period of 1990 to the present it experienced the most rapid growth of the eastern church Numbers are Numbers why those numbers are the way they are is an entirely different debate.
Each area expereinces growth and decline for socio-politcal reasons unique to each church. I am sure that is the same with the Orthodox church as well. That is a deep topic best left on a seperate thread. But I’ll throw in the bare minimal comment here.
I think since the war in Iraq there is a sense of renewed hope among the chaos there for Christians also the Catholic Churchr
has made a concerted effort to maintain a presence there and many donation projects go straight to the catholic churches that exist there. It will be interesting if those numbers remain up as several Catholic and Orthodox Churches have been blown up since the war. As for the Coptic Catholics that is a pleasant suprise to me the Coptics suffer greatly for their faith in a situation like that have reunification of both Coptic churches in union with Rome might help their survivival since they can put pressure of westerhn countries to help Christians in the area. We have a Coptic Church in my area the anomosity that the Greeks and Russians have against the ROman church is not as prevelant in that communion and they have far bigger problems to worry about like Islam I think they might be open to rejoining Rome but I could be niave just my two cents I really don’t claim to know anything on any hierachal opinion.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Maccabees:

the Ukrainian church rapid growth from 1990-2000 was remarkable and the best example of church growth in the east. I was not aware of the recent decline in the last few years

Well, now we have uncovered the root of our misunderstanding. I assumed that you must have known about the decline of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic statistics over the last 4 years and that you were blustering to cover that fact. I did not think that you were being hypocritical about it but just indulging in a bit of creative bending of the statistics.

So it seems we have both been misunderstanding each other. My apologies.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Maccabees:

We have a Coptic Church in my area the anomosity that the Greeks and Russians have against the ROman church is not as prevelant in that communion…

The local Coptic deacon told me that their Church baptizes all Roman Catholics who wish to enter their Church. People are converting as a faith decision and also because of mixed marriages. Have you encountered this in your part of the world? He said that it was the overall policy of the Coptic Church, but I wonder if he may be mistaken.

---

“Who is this coming up from the desert like a column of smoke, perfumed with myrrh * and incense made from all the spices of the merchant*?” ~ Song of Solomon 3:6**

 

[Amadeus]

I would like just to add some facts about the Church (Orthodox and Catholic) in Ukraine:

The Orthodox Churches are:

(1) Ukrainian Orthodox Church–Moscow Patriarchate;
(2) Ukrainian Orthodox Church–Kyiv Patriarchate; and
(3) Ukrainian Orthodox Autocephalous Church.

The Catholic Churches are:

(4) Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church (UGCC); and
(5) Catholic Church of the Latins.

In the current election crisis, I think (2), (3), and (4), are ranged against the UOC-MP, the pro-ROC Ukrainian Church, which has, for now, the largest membership followed by the UGCC.

Grouping (1) to (4) would give you the components of the original Church of Kyiv, also the “mother” Church of the Russian Orthodox Church–Moscow Patriarchate. Except for the Latins, whose center is in Lviv (Lvov), Kyiv is now being claimed by all of the Ukrainian Churches as their HQ.

Parenthetically, the data now being reported in 2004 *Annuario * and by CNEWA are the “adjusted” numbers for each Eastern Catholic Church that reported for the statistical year covered (either 2002 or 2003, I am not sure).

Analysts seem to agree that previously some Churches “inflated” their own membership or were listing long-deceased members in Eastern Europe and in the diaspora, especially during the Cold War.

It would be interesting to see how they fare onwards based on the data entered in the 2004 Annuario.

Amado

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Amadeus:

I would like just to add some facts about the Church (Orthodox and Catholic) in Ukraine:

The Orthodox Churches are:

(1) Ukrainian Orthodox Church–Moscow Patriarchate;
(2) Ukrainian Orthodox Church–Kyiv Patriarchate; and
(3) Ukrainian Orthodox Autocephalous Church.

The Catholic Churches are:

(4) Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church (UGCC); and
(5) Catholic Church of the Latins.

In the current election crisis, I think (2), (3), and (4), are ranged against the UOC-MP

I am interested why the Catholic Church (4) would be ranged against an Orthodox Church (1)? Such an action gives substance to the complaints of the Russian Orthodox Church of Vatican interference in the former Soviet Republics.

---

“I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes and cinnamon.” ~Proverbs 7:17

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Interesting map here from The Times showing where the votes went in the Ukraine
images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,162748,00.gif

On the basis of this someone has suggested that Ukraine could be divided into two countries…

**East Ukraine ** would be the oblasti (provinces) of Kharkiv, Luhansk, Dnipropetrovsk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, Kherson, Crimea, Mykolaiv, and Odessa. (IOW, those who voted for Yanukovych and speak Russian.)

**West Ukraine ** would be the oblasti (provinces) of Kirovohrad, Cherkasy, Poltava, Vinnytsia, Zhytomyr, Rivne, Ternopil, Volyn, Lviv, Khmelnytsky, Chernivtsi, Ivano-Frankikivsk, and Zakarpattia. (IOW, those who voted for Yushchenko and speak Ukrainian.)

Let Sumy, Poltava, Chernihiv, Kiev, decide which side they want to join.

http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,162748,00.gif

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“I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes and cinnamon.” ~Proverbs 7:17

 

[gilliam]

It will be interesting to see how the recount goes.