Ukraine Election Affects ROC & RCC

[GrzeszDeL]

I seem to recall, Father Ambrose, that you mentioned that you have several Ukranians in your own parish. I wonder if any of them have expressed opinions to you about the recent election and sequelæ, and if so, if you might be willing to share these insights with us.

Meanwhile, I am rather distressed at the string of vituperations which I have read on this thread directed against Fr. Ambrose. Being as today is the feast of his patron, St. Ambrose of Milan, I think that today would be an auspicious occasion to try to make amends with our resident Orthodox priest who adds so much of value to the coversation on this board.

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/sta07002.jpg

Troparion in tone 4
In truth you were revealed to your flock as a rule of faith,
an image of humility and a teacher of abstinence;
your humility exalted you;
your poverty enriched you.
Hierarch Father Ambrose,
entreat Christ our God
that our souls may be saved.

Holy Ambrose is one of the four great Doctors of the Western Church. He was a bishop of Milan in Italy. He began his career in public service the governor of northern Italy, but when the Bishop of Milan died, because of the voice of a child in the crowd shouting “Ambrose for bishop!”, St. Ambrose, though only a catechumen at the time, was baptized, confirmed, ordained a priest, and was consecrated a bishop on December 7 in the year 374. St. Ambrose died when he was only fifty-seven, on Good Friday. He was buried by the side of the martyrs, SS. Gervase and Protase, who were the protomartyrs of Milan. It was St. Ambrose who baptized St. Augustine on April 24, 387 on Holy Saturday, the day on which St. Ambrose and St. Augustine composed the beautiful hymn known as the Te Deum, an indispensable prayer of the Catholic Church. The sayings of St. Ambrose as a Doctor of the Catholic Church are so profound and clear and noble that any one of them, once listened to or read, can never be forgotten. St. Ambrose says that the devil keeps an account of our sins, but if we accuse ourselves of these sins before a Catholic priest in confession, no accuser, not even the devil, will appear before us when we stand at the judgment Seat of God. St. Ambrose is patron of school children and wax-workers, so today would be a good day to make candles with your kids. It would also be a good day to pray for the faithful of Milan and for Fr. Ambrose (or any other Ambrose whom you might happen to know) and to read his work On the Holy Mysteries.

Holy Ambrose, pray for us!

 

[Amadeus]

Dear Fr. Ambrose:

I think you very well know the history behind the continuing animosity between the UOC-MP on the one hand and the other Orthodox jurisdictions, including the UGCC (in which some faithful refer to themselves as “Orthodox in communion with Rome”).

The UOC-KP particularly is at odds with the UOC-MP and are “fighting” for the fealty of the Ukrainians and for Church properties.

Pope John Paul II’s last trip to Ukraine was for the canonization of the many Ukrainian Greek-Catholics who sufferred martyrdom under the aegis of Soviet communism, with the undisguised support, or at least the acquiesence, of the ROC and the UOC-MP.

In the open letter to Pres. Kuchma regarding the election crisis, the UOC-MP was conspicuously a non-signatory, while all Christian Churches, led by Cardinal Husar of the UGCC, co-signed the missive.

It is very telling, I might say!

 

[GAssisi]

Dear Father,

What is the purpose of your citation of the article from Bishop Alfeyev? Are you saying since one group of Christians violated the rights of others, it is then OK for the latter group to do the same? Is this the mentality that Orthodox preach to their flock? Please explain yourself.

God bless,
Greg

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GrzeszDeL:

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/sta07002.jpg

Meanwhile, I am rather distressed at the string of vituperations

Grz, I appreciate your words of support. God bless you for them. I have wondered over the last few days if a couple of people are not colluding together to drive me off the Forum by attacking me with personal ad hominems and with scathing words against my Church. It has even been said that my Church is a cancerous growth on the healthy Catholic Church - I confess that I failed there and that I responded in kind to that particular post, but I was worn down by the high level of nasty attacks against me and my Church.

See the two threads
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=25691
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=25099

 

[GAssisi]

Dear Father,
Yes, “cancerous” is too much, off the mark. “Hypocrite”-- I get the impression that the person who wrote that does not have English as his first language. I think he simply meant to say “inconsistent.”
In any case, Could you please answer my question? Thanks.
God bless,
Greg

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Amadeus:

I think you very well know the history behind the continuing animosity between the UOC-MP on the one hand and the other Orthodox jurisdictions including the UGCC (in which some faithful refer to themselves as “Orthodox in communion with Rome”).

Nevertheless, I am still very curious about the Catholic Church in the Ukraine “ranging itself against” the Orthodox Church. It gives credence to the Russian Patriarch’s protests against Vatican interference in Orthodox affairs.

As for “Orthodox in communion with Rome” - that would seem a no-brainer and the phrase should be allowed to die a natural death before it becomes too embarrassing.

How can there be “*Orthodox * in commmunion with Rome” when they are NOT in communion with the Orthodox?

Can there also be “Catholics in communion with Moscow” but not in communion with the Pope?

The UOC-KP particularly is at odds with the UOC-MP and are “fighting” for the fealty of the Ukrainians and for Church properties.

The Ukrainian Orthodox [sic] Church-Kyiev Patriarchate is not taken seriously except by those who wish to manipulate it and its “Patriarch” to whip up nationalistic fervour, in much the same way as Milosevic tried to do in the former Yugoslavia.

I see that the “Patriarch” Philaret Denisenko, has made one of his typical bumbling statements on the Ukrainian elections

Philaret said that he addressed Kuchma and reminded him that he swore an oath not only on the Constitution, but on the Bible. “And an oath on the Bible is not a formality; it’s a promise before God. And you can’t joke with God,” said the Patriarch.

Maybe someone should read his words back to Philaret and remind him that he also swore an oath on the Bible when he was deposed - to live as a monk and not interfere in Church matters or politics upon his return to Ukraine.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Let this ambitious “monk” go back to his “wife” and live in peace and stop scandalising the Church in the Ukraine.

 

[GAssisi]

Dear Father,

The Orthodox in communion with Rome are those Orthodox who have not given in to the sensationalist caricatures of the papacy and Catholicism that infects much of what is called the Orthodox Church.
I don’t see why you would deny them this title. Certainly the Oriental Orthodox are not in communion with you, but they are still “Orthodox” (though you might contend that). So, in fact, one can possess that nomenclature while not being in communion with your brand of Orthodoxy.

Greg

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GAssisi:

The Orthodox in communion with Rome are those Orthodox who have not given in to the sensationalist caricatures of the papacy and Catholicism that infects much of what is called the Orthodox Church.
I don’t see why you would deny them this title

How can a person be “Orthodox” when they are not in communion with any Orthodox bishop?

Are there “Catholics” who are not in communion with Rome?

I suppose that the Anglicans who have gome over to Rome and who use the Anglican Rite are known as “Anglicans in communion with Rome”? Do they maintain their communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury as well as with Rome?

Does this mean that we ought to call Catholics who have converted to Orthodoxy “Catholics in communion with Constantinople”?

The ecclesiology of the Catholic Church is very confused and confusing.

 

[GAssisi]

Dear Father,

Don’t avoid the issue. Why don’t you comment on my entire post. If the Oriental Orthodox who are not in communion with you can be called Orthodox, why cannot those who are in communion with Rome? Father, perhaps these particular Orthodox are making a statement that it is Orthodox to be united with the Western Church.

God bless,
Greg

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GAssisi:

Don’t avoid the issue. Why don’t you comment on my entire post. If the Oriental Orthodox who are not in communion with you can be called Orthodox, why cannot those who are in communion with Rome? Father, perhaps these particular Orthodox are making a statement that it is Orthodox to be united with the Western Church.

Well, if we are going to give away all common sense, then please think of me as a “Catholic in communion with Moscow.”

 

[GAssisi]

“A Catholic in communion with Moscow?” Then you DO agree that the norm is for East and West to be united! Thank you, Father. How good of you to be ecumenical!
God bless,
Greg

 

[Maccabees]

Amadeus:

Dear Fr. Ambrose:

I think you very well know the history behind the continuing animosity between the UOC-MP on the one hand and the other Orthodox jurisdictions, including the UGCC (in which some faithful refer to themselves as “Orthodox in communion with Rome”).

The UOC-KP particularly is at odds with the UOC-MP and are “fighting” for the fealty of the Ukrainians and for Church properties.

Pope John Paul II’s last trip to Ukraine was for the canonization of the many Ukrainian Greek-Catholics who sufferred martyrdom under the aegis of Soviet communism, with the undisguised support, or at least the acquiesence, of the ROC and the UOC-MP.

In the open letter to Pres. Kuchma regarding the election crisis, the UOC-MP was conspicuously a non-signatory, while all Christian Churches, led by Cardinal Husar of the UGCC, co-signed the missive.

It is very telling, I might say!

Well the tradition of Ukrainian Catholics goes back to 1596 began when Rome had reestablishment of communion with the Orthodox of Ukraine. By the 18th century 2/3 of western of the area of Western Ukraine was Catholic. In the 19th century the Russian Czar officially suppressed Catholic Churches, but many communites still flourished. Under Communism, the Ukraininan Catholic Church was forced to join the Russian Orthodox. Most Bishops and many priests died in prison while others were exiled.

But the events of 1989 have brought the Ukrainian Catholic Church out of exile and from its underground existance. I am sure Putin and the Russian Orthodox would like to return to the days of the Ukrainina Catholic Church being in exile and in an underground existance. Where no bishop or priest could talk about the Russian government in a negative. way. The Russian Orthodox since the days of Stalin have been yes men to the Russian government all the while they practice evil. That has not changed. What a shame to the Orthodox bishops and priest died under the early days of communism when these people braved their faith those Orthodox priests have not been in the R.O for 60 years. Now only cowards exist.

 

[GAssisi]

Dear Maccabees,

I think it is really unproductive to keep bringing up who suffered what. I understand that you think the Russian Orthodox are simply “yes-men,” and I would agree that in not a few respects they are. However, I think it is not fair to separate the Orthodox who died in persecution from the Orthodox who survived and became a “State Church.”

We have had and have our own share of sinners in the Catholic Church, but they are no less Catholic because they were sinners.

Consider that many falsely accuse Pope Pius XII of being “Hitler’s Pope.” Though Pius XII certainly never gave a blessing to Hitler the way that the Russian Patriarch did for Stalin, it can still be said that we have been and are in the ROC’s shoes in this regard.

For no other reason than brotherly love, we should forego such statements towards and about our Orthodox brethren. Let’s keep it on the level of theological and moral doctrine. I know it is hard because Father A and others like to bring up the “who did what to whom” card, but let us ALL rise above that.

God bless,
Greg

 

[HagiaSophia]

Fr Ambrose:

I have wondered over the last few days if a couple of people are not colluding together to drive me off the Forum by attacking me with personal ad hominems and with scathing words against my Church. It has even been said that my Church is a cancerous growth on the healthy Catholic Church -

I have not been in here much lately and if that is true, I ask that you not grant them their wish and may I aplogize for them in the absence of good and civil manners in the discourse.

You have been a font of both wisdom and knowledge to me personally and when I read articles about the Orthodox I am so much better able to understand what is being said these days because I’ve been able to discuss things here with you and others who irrespective of their particular faith or banch of it, are willing to discuss, to spar civillly and to shed heat instead of light. It makes such a difference and so do you.

You and I may disagree, but we have always managed to keep a good sense of humor about it and I thank you for some of the questions you raise, I have had to seek recourse to some of my “books” to clarify my own thinking and understanding. It’s the best kind of “teaching” there is. Thank you once again for being here and adding to the “flavor” of the forum and once again, my apologies for those who have been less than civil.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GAssisi:

In any case, Could you please answer my question?

What is the purpose of your citation of the article from Bishop Alfeyev?

You spoke of the problem of human rights in the Ukraine

Greg: “In my opinion, given the history of the ROC, their involvement is understandable. However, it cannot evoke any sympathy, especially as human rights are involved.”

I referenced Bp Hilarion Alfeyev’s speech to the Catholic universities in the States to show that the human rights of the Orthodox are being violated in the Ukraine, notably in Western Ukraine…

Bp Hilarion: “By the end of 1990, most churches in Lvov, Ternopol and Ivano-Frankovsk [see map above, post #19] had been captured [by Ukrainian Greek Catholics] and by the end of 1991, 597 churches had been taken from the Orthodox…”

Are you saying since one group of Christians violated the rights of others, it is then OK for the latter group to do the same?

Read the words of our Saviour on the question of repaying evil with evil.

Note that solutions were being implemented but the Ukrainian Greek Catholics simply abandoned the Commission created to solve problems amicably and justly…

"January 1990 saw the creation of the so-called Quadrennial Commission, which comprised representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate, the Roman Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the Eastern Rite Catholics from Western Ukraine. The Commission began to discuss concrete cases of human rights violations during the campaign launched by the Uniates.

"In March 1990, the Commission developed basic principles for the distribution of the property between the Greek Catholics and the Orthodox. It was agreed that, where there are two churches, one should be given to the Greek Catholics and another one remain Orthodox; where there is only one church, it should belong to the majority group, which must in this case help the minority find or build a suitable place of worship.

“However, on 13 March 1990, the Greek Catholics unilaterally left the Commission.”

Is this the mentality that Orthodox preach to their flock?

What an unenlightened statement! Why do you do that? Why try to create antagonism with loaded questions like that?

Please explain yourself.

I hope that I have.

 

[Melania]

HagiaSophia:

Thank you once again for being here and adding to the “flavor” of the forum…

Father Bless,

I agree, please don’t let the remarks of a couple of people run you off the list. They are a small but outspoken minority. There are many list lurkers such as myself who appreciate the wisdom and advise of a humble hieromonk.

Sláinte

 

[Maccabees]

GAssisi:

Dear Maccabees,

I think it is really unproductive to keep bringing up who suffered what. I understand that you think the Russian Orthodox are simply “yes-men,” and I would agree that in not a few respects they are. However, I think it is not fair to separate the Orthodox who died in persecution from the Orthodox who survived and became a “State Church.”

We have had and have our own share of sinners in the Catholic Church, but they are no less Catholic because they were sinners.

Consider that many falsely accuse Pope Pius XII of being “Hitler’s Pope.” Though Pius XII certainly never gave a blessing to Hitler the way that the Russian Patriarch did for Stalin, it can still be said that we have been and are in the ROC’s shoes in this regard.

For no other reason than brotherly love, we should forego such statements towards and about our Orthodox brethren. Let’s keep it on the level of theological and moral doctrine. I know it is hard because Father A and others like to bring up the “who did what to whom” card, but let us ALL rise above that.

God bless,
Greg

I will not retract my statement of what happend to the Ukraine Catholics of the past that is fact that I cannot change anymore than not admitting the martdyrdom of the aspostles that was carefully preserved for us to witness to as our inspiration. Considering Pope John II has canonized and designated blessed and venerable to the many suffering Ukrainina Catholics of the last 100 years he does not want us to forget either.
I blame the communist and orthodox who colluded against the catholic church at that time.
However I will retract criticism of the current Orthodox leadership as have any blame for those things. However they are at a crossroads to cut themselves off from the chians that bind them to the Russian government I am waiting and hoping for a change I haven’t seen as yet. As RO members are not in any way culpuable for the sins the RO church that is a different issue. But as others are quick to remindus of our church sins we need to lokk at another historical perspective here that the Communist and Nazi regimes persecuted us. Only when we remind others of this can we level the playing field and makes others realize the catholic church has been more persucted in her history than the persecuted.

 

[GAssisi]

Dear Maccabees,

Well said!

Dear Father,

You must forgive me for doubting your motives in this instance. It is rather hard to believe that your only purpose in bringing up the failure of Catholics to accede to the colloquy is as benign as to simply make people aware of the plight of Orthodox Christians. A truly fair account would have been to detail the possible reasons for the Catholic actions. Is it possible that the Catholics were reacting to long years of oppression by the Communists and their perceived Orthodox lapdogs? Why could you not bring such circumstances to light instead of simply trying to make the Catholics look like a bunch of disgruntled anarchists?

Your post clearly indicates you were reacting to my statement that human rights were being violated by the pro-Russian candidate. But instead of taking it for the purely political statement it was, you made it an issue of Orthodox versus Catholics. Did I say anywhere that it was the Orthodox themselves who were violating human rights? Your reactionary attitude is the kind of demeanor that purveyors of peace can do without.

Having said that, your presence here is appreciated, and your insights into Orthodox theological viewpoints. I only wish you would stop with your ad hominem Catholic bashing, and your attempts to (mis)represent the Catholic position, which do nothing to promote genuine understanding.

God bless,

Greg

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GAssisi:

You must forgive me for doubting your motives in this instance. It is rather hard to believe that your only purpose in bringing up the failure of Catholics to accede to the colloquy is as benign as to simply make people aware of the plight of Orthodox Christians. A truly fair account would have been to detail the possible reasons for the Catholic actions. Is it possible that the Catholics were reacting to long years of oppression by the Communists and their perceived Orthodox lapdogs? Why could you not bring such circumstances to light instead of simply trying to make the Catholics look like a bunch of disgruntled anarchists

I do know the reasons that the Greek Catholics withdrew from the Quadrennial Commission established to solve the problems in the Western Ukraine. It was in fact to spare your sensibilities that I did not go into detail.

1. The Greek Catholics were promised by the Nationalist Ukrainian Party in Western Ukraine, known as Rukh, that they would bring about the ethnic cleansing of the Orthodox from Western Ukraine and so the Greek Catholics would come into possession of the Orthodox churches and monasteries. The Greek Catholics therefore saw no point in playing along with the Quadrennial Commission. *Rukh * was assuring them that it would soon all be their hands anyway.
2. The Ukrainian Greek Catholics were shafted by the Vatican representatives on the Quadrennial Commission in 1990! This betrayal of the Greek Catholics is described at length in an article by Fr Serge Kelleher who serves the Ukrainian Greek Catholic community in Ireland at the Dublin Cathedral. I’ll see if I can locate it. It is on the Net somewhere.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

1. The Ukrainian Greek Catholics were shafted by the Vatican representatives on the Quadrennial Commission in 1990! This betrayal of the Greek Catholics is described at length in an article by Fr Serge Kelleher who serves the Ukrainian Greek Catholic community in Ireland at the Dublin Cathedral. I’ll see if I can locate it. It is on the Net somewhere.

Church in the Middle: Greek-Catholics in Central and Eastern Europe

Serge Keleher

melkite.com/keleher.html

“In January 1990 a delegation from the Council for Promoting Christian Unity (the department of the Holy See responsible for ecumenism) visited the Moscow Patriarchate, and attempted to reach a working agreement on procedures for settling the disputes arising from the reappearance of the Greek-Catholic Church in Ukraine. As a result of that meeting, a ‘Quadripartite Commission’ met in March. The Roman delegates tried to suppress the voice of the representatives of the Greek-Catholic Church in Ukraine, who eventually withdrew from the meeting in protest. The Commission collapsed, and an effort in September to resurrect it did not succeed. I shall discuss the reason for this failure in a moment…”

Another report by Fr Serge Kelleher goes into much greater detail…

The Passion and Resurrection: The Greek Catholic Church in
Soviet Ukraine 1939-1989, Serge Keleher.

Please see
cin.org/archives/cineast/200303/0077.html