Ukraine Election Affects ROC & RCC

[Fr_Ambrose]

An interesting fact came to light while I was searching for Fr Serge Kelleher’s articles.

The persecution of the Byzantine Catholics by the Roman Catholic Church!!

"In post World War II Poland most Byzantine Catholic properties went to the Roman Catholic Church.

In December 1990 the Pope unilaterally appointed a Roman Catholic bishop to Lvov. Appointments of Polish ordinaries to other Ukrainian locals followed. In an expression of its dissatisfaction, the city council of Lvov refused to make the former residence of the Polish Archbishop available to the new incumbent, and the plane carrying the visiting Polish Primate Cardinal Glemp was turned back upon being refused permission to land in that city. Meanwhile, in the Ukrainian city of Peremyshl’ (Premysl) just inside the Polish border, the Poles refused to allow the new Eastern Catholic bishop of Peremyshl’ access to the Eastern Catholic cathedral and residence. These conflicts have continued and worsened."
Serge Keleher, *“Out of the Catacombs…,” * p. 260.

Extracted from an article by Dr. Joseph Loya, O.S.A,
INTERCHURCH RELATIONS IN POST-PERESTROIKA EASTERN EUROPE:
A SHORT HISTORY OF AN ECUMENICAL MELTDOWN

georgefox.edu/academics/undergrad/departments/soc-swk/ree/LOYA_MEL.html

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GAssisi:

Having said that, your presence here is appreciated, and your insights into Orthodox theological viewpoints. I only wish you would stop with your ad hominem Catholic bashing, and your attempts to (mis)represent the Catholic position, which do nothing to promote genuine understanding

One of the grossest misrepresentations is the attempt to present the Pope to the Orthodox as the “First among Equals” when he is nothing of the sort. How is that seen as promoting genuine understanding? I am not sure if His Holiness would approve of one of his faithful degrading his petrine authority in this way

 

[GAssisi]

Dear Father:

This segment of the article caught my eye:

“Pope John Paul II invited the Orthodox churches of the European continent to send ‘fraternal delegates’ to the European Synod that met in Rome late in 1991. Patriarch Aleksi II of Moscow replied with an angry refusal, citing the ‘Uniates’ in Ukraine and alleged Roman Catholic proselytism in Russia itself as his reasons. The response from Rome seems to indicate that someone at the Vatican has become tired of this barage of accusations from Moscow; the Roman statement says bluntly that it is unjust to blame the Greek-Catholic Church for the estrangement and that a well-timed gesture of reconciliation from Moscow would have done a good deal. This, of course, is true. However, it is also true that no one can be compelled to repent against his own will, and simply reminding Moscow of its complicity in the persecution is not a sufficient response.”

The article demonstrated three things to me:

1. The Eastern Catholics recognize that they are in a tough spot, and may have been forced into actions that may not be appropriate but which they felt compelled to do, not because of Rome per se, but because of Rome’s attempts to assuage intransigent Orthodox hierarchs who wrongly feel like the Eastern Catholics belong to them.
2. The Orthodox Church lost a great many members after Communism fell because people were finally free to practice the true faith of their conscience – EASTERN CATHOLICISM, or Orthodoxy in union with the Pope. After decades of oppression, the explosion of Catholicism, with accompanying actions of the Eastern Catholics in Ukraine, are thoroughly understandable. It is like letting the cork out of a bottle after it is shaken long enough.
3. The tensions between Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics is a local phenomenon between neighboring Churches. It is not an issue between Rome herself and Eastern Catholics. The article related how the Popes were/are often on the side of Eastern Catholics.

Thank you for the article, Father. It helped steel many of my convictions.

As far as your comment about “first among equals” is concerned, I know very well you have your own version of Catholicism in your mind which is not really Catholicism. The least you can do is regard my statement in context. I did say that the Pope is “first among equals” up to the level of Patriarch. But the Pope’s prerogatives go beyond that level.

God bless,

Greg

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GAssisi:

As far as your comment about “first among equals” is concerned, I know very well you have your own version of Catholicism in your mind which is not really Catholicism. The least you can do is regard my statement in context. I did say that the Pope is “first among equals” up to the level of Patriarch. But the Pope’s prerogatives go beyond that level

What you are saying is basically a load of old cobblers!

I am equal to my six year old daughter up to the level of a six year old human being.

My bishop and I are equal up to the level of the presbyterate.

Why, one could even say that the Pope and I are equals up to the level of the presbyterate!

Because of the importance of the concept of “first among equals” for the Orthodox and for the ecumenical dialogue it is dangerous and irresponsible to play games with the term.​

Define “Supremacy”
russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesen/news04/pavelausphoto.html

 

[GAssisi]

Dear Father,

Your reply suggests an underlying misconception about Catholic ecclesiology (again!) Your analogies are not appropriate. The Petrineness of the papacy is a special charism of the bishop of Rome, it is not one of the orders of the Church. The office of bishop is the highest order in the Catholic Church. Your analogies to priest and bishop, and child and parent are altogether lacking.

If I were to give an analogy, I would compare it to an EMT leader (Emergency Response Team). In normal circumstances in my workplace, I am simply one of my fellow workers. But during emergencies, I, as EMT leader, obtain an authority no other one of my co-workers possess. In the same way, in normal circumstances, the Pope is just like any other bishop or Patriarch. However, when there is need for the Petrine prerogatives to be exercised (which may happen at any time), then no one else but the bishop of Rome has the grace to exercise these prerogatives. In this particular instance, he has no equal. Simple as that. I wonder why that is so hard for you to accept. Perhaps you, as an Orthodox, are so immersed in such a fantastically twisted understanding of the papacy that you cannot see the papacy for what it truly is.
Oh well, at least you can still be saved through invincible ignorance!
God bless,
Greg

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Maccabees:

As a general rule yes many of of Eastern churches are loosing members you conveniently left out

Maccabees, I located this on my computer… I think it is something I saved from the CINEast list.

Start quote…

As interesting as some of the recent exchanges on this list may have been, it may be time to devote some thought to the causes of, and possible responses to, the appalling statistics on the state of the Eastern Catholic Churches published in the Annuario Pontificio for 2003. Of course, these numbers are only as reliable as the collection process and some of the numbers are
suspiciously round, suggesting that some overworked chancery official (or some overworked curial official) just plugged them in. Nonetheless, they seem to show a steady decline in the US, and sometimes also in the mother country:

Armenians: a decline in the US since 1995.

Syro-Malankaras: a decline in India since 2000, which may have been offset by an unreported increase in the US.

Syrians: a decline overseas, but a modest increase in the US (which seems substantiated by the creation of their new eparchy).

Maronites: a decline abroad since 2000, but an increase in the combined population of the two eparchies in the US.

Chaldeans: a decline abroad since 2000, but an increase in the US.

Syro-Malabarians: An increase in India and in the US.

Melkites: modest increases worldwide and in the US.

Ukrainians: a decline abroad since 2000 and a dramatic decline in the US since 1990.

Ruthenians: a decline in Europe (from 2002) and in the US (since 1990).

Romanians: declines in Europe (since 1995) and in the US (since 2000)

Former Yugoslavia: decline

Greece: small but stable

Bulgaria: stable, if the round numbers are accurate.

Slovak Byzantines: a decline in Europe and in Canada (since 1990)

Italo-Albanians: slightly down

Hungarian Byzantines: slightly up in Europe

Albanian Byzantines: slightly up in Europe.

The Ruthenian and Ukrainian figures are the most disturbing, if they are accurate. The Ukrainian numbers may be more worrisome because the post-WW II immigration masks the loss of the children and grandchildren of earlier immigrations. Only the Indian Churches seem to be experiencing significant growth in the US. And in many of their home countries?

Is anyone aware of a source of hard data that would suggest that these numbers do not reflect a serious decline in most of the Eastern Catholic Churches in the United States? Does anyone know of another source of data on the state of health of Eastern Catholics in the US and abroad?

Is the Church’s ‘other lung’ collapsing? If so, what can be done to reverse, or at least arrest, the process?

… end quote

 

[Maccabees]

Father Ambrose I don’t know of any specific numbers but in general I keep hearing Orthodoxy in their native countires are having their own problems with loosing people. Is this true?
If you more specific information please oblige.

Here is the USA Orthodoxy is doing well but most of that is attributed to immigration and not a mass conversion of western christians, although there are notable converts of western persuasion.

A big problem with Eastern Catholics in the West is that end up in the Roman church. As many of their marriage partners and friends attend the ROman church and sometimes their kids attned RC schools it is very tempting for them to be a latin christian. THis is something church discourages but indivudals dicatate their own actions.

As a general rule Christiantiy in Europe and the middle east is in decline but is stable in America and Latin America and growing in Afirca and Asia. Europe needs to be reevangelized and of course the middle east but with the problems with Islam that will a raher difficult task.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Maccabees:

Father Ambrose I don’t know of any specific numbers but in general I keep hearing Orthodoxy in their native countires are having their own problems with loosing people. Is this true?
If you more specific information please oblige…

Recent statistics show that the Middle Eastern Patriarchates are indeed declining – Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople and Jerusalem. Statistics supplied by the *Representation of the Russian Orthodox Church to the European Institutions * bear this out.

On the other hand the Churches of Russia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania -in general those Churches which until recently were persecuted by atheistic Communism- are experiencing almost phenomenal growth, in the growing numbers of the faithful, numbers of clergy, the building (or rebuilding) of churches, the establishment (or re-establishment) of hundreds of monasteries, etc.

See the Bulletin (no.28) which gives these up-to-date figures in February this year.
orthodoxeurope.org

Patriarchate of Constantinople 7 000 000
Turkey, Thrace, island of the Aegean Sea, diaspora

Patriarchate of Alexandria 350 000
Egypt and all Africa

Patriarchate of Antioch 1 500 000
Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, diaspora

Patriarchate of Jerusalem 156 000
Palestine, Israel, Jordan

Patriarchate of Moscow 160 000 000
Russia, Belorus, Ukraine. Moldova, Baltics, disapora

Serbian Orthodox Church 8 000 000
Serbia, Montenegro, Slovenia, Croatia

Romanian Orthodox Church 20 000 000
Roumania, diaspora

Bulgarian Orthodox Church 8 000 000

Georgian Orthodox Church 3 000 000

Cypriot Orthodox Church 500 000

Greek Orthodox Church 10 000 000

Polish Orthodox Church 1 000 000

Albanian Orthodox Church 700 000

Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church 74 000

American Orthodox Church 1 000 000

---

Germany 800 000

United Kingdom 350 000

France 250 000

Austria 150 000

Sweden 100 000

Switzerland 80 000

Spain 20 000

Belgium 40 000

Italy 250 000

Holland 10 000
-oOo-

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Maccabees:

Father Ambrose I don’t know of any specific numbers but in general I keep hearing Orthodoxy in their native countires are having their own problems with loosing people. Is this true?
If you more specific information please oblige.

Here are some statistics (the diocese of Moscow) that may be of interest:

On December 23, 2003, the Diocesan Assembly of Moscow Diocese took place in Christ the Saviour Cathedral in Moscow.

There are 132 dioceses in Moscow Patriarchate today.

The number of hierarchs: 154; 130 ruling hierarchs; 24 vicar and 12 retired

The number of monasteries: 312 male and 325 female; total - 635 (not taking into an account 167 monastery representations -these are small monasteries in cities attched to large rural monasteries- and 45 sketes) - a full total of 847 monasteries.

Under Communism monasteries were limited to 4 with no more than a total of 40 monks in each monastery}

Number of parishes on the territory of Russia: 16,350

Number of clergymen that serve these parishes: 15,605 priests and 3,405 deacons; total - 19,010 clergymen

Number of theological schools:
5 theological academies;
1 theological institute;
1 Orthodox university;
33 theological seminaries;
44 theological schools;
14 pastoral schools;
3 diocesan female schools.
There are also a growing number of schools for choir directors, iconographers and Sunday school teachers.

Number of students in Moscow theological schools this year:
687 intern seminarians and 880 by correspondence.

The number of Orthodox temples and chapels in Moscow: 681, including 7 Kremlin cathedrals,
357 parish churches,
2 cathedral churches,
5 chapels of the synodal departments,
114 patriarchal representation churches,
64 monastery representation churches,
65 chapels;
67 temples and chapels are in the process of construction
Divine services are taking place in 480 temples and 65 chapels. The services are not yet resumed in 31 temples.
32 temples are not yet vacated by their former occupants.
133 domestic chapels

Number of clergymen that serve Moscow parishes:
723 priests and 287 deacons;
total - 1,010 clergymen in Moscow.

Number of priest-monks that serve in stavropegial monasteries in Moscow diocese: 347;
in other stavropegial monasteries - 112

The total number of the clergymen in the Moscow diocese: 1,532

In the course if the current year, the clergy of Moscow was increased by 51 graduates of theological schools, the clergymen transferred from other dioceses and those ordained by recommendations of rectors of Moscow churches and monasteries.

In the current year we lost:
7 retired;
4 went to other dioceses;
1 (priest Victor Shishkin) suspended;
6 died.

 

[Maccabees]

Fr Ambrose:

Here are some statistics (the diocese of Moscow) that may be of interest:

On December 23, 2003, the Diocesan Assembly of Moscow Diocese took place in Christ the Saviour Cathedral in Moscow.

There are 132 dioceses in Moscow Patriarchate today.

The number of hierarchs: 154; 130 ruling hierarchs; 24 vicar and 12 retired

The number of monasteries: 312 male and 325 female; total - 635 (not taking into an account 167 monastery representations -these are small monasteries in cities attched to large rural monasteries- and 45 sketes) - a full total of 847 monasteries.

[Under Communism monasteries were limited to 4 with no more than a total of 40 monks in each monastery}

Number of parishes on the territory of Russia: 16,350

Number of clergymen that serve these parishes: 15,605 priests and 3,405 deacons; total - 19,010 clergymen

Number of theological schools:
5 theological academies;
1 theological institute;
1 Orthodox university;
33 theological seminaries;
44 theological schools;
14 pastoral schools;
3 diocesan female schools.
There are also a growing number of schools for choir directors, iconographers and Sunday school teachers.

Number of students in Moscow theological schools this year:
687 intern seminarians and 880 by correspondence.

The number of Orthodox temples and chapels in Moscow: 681, including 7 Kremlin cathedrals,
357 parish churches,
2 cathedral churches,
5 chapels of the synodal departments,
114 patriarchal representation churches,
64 monastery representation churches,
65 chapels;
67 temples and chapels are in the process of construction
Divine services are taking place in 480 temples and 65 chapels. The services are not yet resumed in 31 temples.
32 temples are not yet vacated by their former occupants.
133 domestic chapels

Number of clergymen that serve Moscow parishes:
723 priests and 287 deacons;
total - 1,010 clergymen in Moscow.

Number of priest-monks that serve in stavropegial monasteries in Moscow diocese: 347;
in other stavropegial monasteries - 112

The total number of the clergymen in the Moscow diocese: 1,532

In the course if the current year, the clergy of Moscow was increased by 51 graduates of theological schools, the clergymen transferred from other dioceses and those ordained by recommendations of rectors of Moscow churches and monasteries.

In the current year we lost:
7 retired;
4 went to other dioceses;
1 (priest Victor Shishkin) suspended;
6 died.

Sounds like your exploding.
Since the downfall of communism the obstacles are gone I forgot about that.
The Orthodox in the Middle East are the one most in danger of loosing their flock and whose numbers we really need to watch.
[/quote]

 

[GrzeszDeL]

Dear Fr. A,

Two questions: 1) My earlier question about the thoughts (if any) of your Ukrainian parishoners still stands.

1. What is an Orthodox “temple”?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GrzeszDeL:

Dear Fr. A,

Two questions: 1) My earlier question about the thoughts (if any) of your Ukrainian parishoners still stands.

I have heard only expressions of sorrow and bewilderment and a desire that this time of stress will end quickly.

1. What is an Orthodox “temple”?

“Temple” is the normal word for the church building. So there is a distinction between “hram” (temple, church building) and “tserkov” (Church) although tserkov meaning Church is also used for a church building too.

Usually in English when speaking to non-O’s the O’s will translate temple as church, but that article kept to the original word.

O churches are still patterned on the temple in Jerusalem.

“Following the pattern of the Old Testament Temple, which had a courtyard, a nave and the holy of holies, an Orthodox church is also divided into three areas: the narthex, the central part of the church and the sanctuary, the Holy of Holies.”

**The arrangement of the Interior of the Church **
orthodoxphotos.com/readings/temple/arrangement.shtml
**The development of the Church and Its architectural forms ** orthodoxphotos.com/readings/temple/development.shtml

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Ecumenical News International
Daily News Service / 09 December 2004

Churches in Ukraine swirl in political turmoil
By Jonathan Luxmoore

Warsaw, 9 December (ENI)–The political turmoil in Ukraine has not only got the masses onto the streets but it has also
mobilised members of the country’s religious communities, with many churches criticising the way recently contested elections were conducted.

Foreign ministers from NATO and Russia on Thursday jointly called for a free and fair election in Ukraine, after weeks of tension about a presidential poll that has polarised the country and mobilised churches.

Demonstrations have gripped Ukraine since 21 November when Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovich, who favours closer ties with Russia, was declared to have beaten pro-Western opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko in an election criticised by international monitors.

“The spread of popular protests testifies that the rights of
persons were truly brutally violated,” said Roman and Greek
Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, and Evangelical leaders, as well
as the heads of two of Ukraine’s Orthodox denominations in a 29 November open letter.

Thousands of opposition supporters have been demonstrating in the capital Kiev and other cities, calling for the election to be
annulled, while followers of the prime minister have mounted
rallies in support of the declared winner of the poll, whose
victory was overturned on 3 December by Ukraine’s supreme court.

“It would be impossible for the people of Ukraine to take such
action only for the personal interests of one candidate, and the
entire world has understood this,” the church leaders said in the letter addressed to Ukrainian president Leonid Kuchma. It was, however, not signed by Ukraine’s biggest Orthodox denomination, which is linked to the Moscow Patriarchate of the Russian Orthodox Church.

In a 29 November statement posted on its Web site, the
Moscow-linked Ukrainian Orthodox Church urged clergy to disregard statements, mostly supporting Prime Minister Yanukovich, by independent Orthodox groups within the church.

“In recent days, attempts to politicise groups of the faithful
have increased,” the Ukrainian Orthodox Church said.

“All orders and resolutions by the head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the Holy Synod are made public only through the chancellery of the Kiev metropolitanate. All other independent statements by brotherhoods, sisterhoods and civic organisations in its name have no legal force and need not be carried out.”

Monks at the church’s monastery at the Caves in Kiev said they would ask visitors to remove political symbols so as not to disrupt the “prayerful atmosphere”, adding, political choices by Orthodox Christians should depend on “their civic conscience and personal understanding of what is happening”.

However, local newspapers said members of the Moscow-linked Union of Orthodox Brotherhoods had pledged support for Yanukovich at a Kiev prayer meeting on 28 November, and had called on Orthodox Christians to defend “general Slavic unity”.

In a further statement after a meeting on 2 December, the
Moscow-linked church’s governing holy synod called for an end to “conflicts shattering the country” in the run-up to Christmas.

“Today as always, our church is with its people,” the synod
stated. “Nor is the church dividing people into ‘orange’ or
‘blue-and-white’ - all are children of God,” it added, referring
to the rival colours of opposition and government supporters.