Ukrainian Catholic leader meets with Canadian PM, decries Russian actions [CWN]

[Son_of_Niall]

Josie L.
Not to make this personal, but you seem awfully invested in this particular story (events in the Ukraine), here and in WN. It causes many here to wonder why…

As to this issue, I will simply re-post what I posted on WN that got lost in the thread.
I would like to chime in as a person who has observed history since a child.
We are playing a VERY dangerous game in the Ukraine.
Maybe Americans are so used to seeing corporate media’s view of the world they are blind to what the rest of the world sees. If the EU and the US continues, we will at best, change the economic future for the worst in the western world. Especially if China joins with Russia on their economic future.
At worst, we are headed for another World War.
I’ve been concerned about this since Obama took office and recieved a “Peace Prize” almost automatically. In '08 I thought that was like stamping “unsinkable” on the Titanic. A challenge to God like that, can only lead to the worst of consequences.
I sincerely hope and pray I am wrong.

 

[josie_L]

As a matter of fact, I don’t like our “democratically elected” prime minister. First off, the political dynamics of our party system and the centralized, corporatized media mean that our country is not democratic… issues that should be roundly discussed and debated in public are not, and this rubs off on our government, full of stinking, rotten “party lines” that career politicians mustn’t deviate far from.** For example, the “upper tier” “Conservatives” in recent memory have been suppressing attempts to tighten up abortion laws.** If anyone has half of a functioning brain and conscience, that’s priority #1. In conjunction, they’d also have to put in some pretty wild and socialistic policies to reduce the cost of living in this country, and at the same time set up an education system that teaches people marketable, useful skills, instead of a bunch of feel-good “we’re all smart” ****.

Well, I do, although that doesn’t mean that I agree with everything he does or says, for example, I don’t like the fact that he has disallowed members of his party from reopening the abortion issue, although there has been talk about sex-selective abortions in parliament, and it has compelled the Harper government to condemn gender-selection abortions at the party’s convention in November (2013). I think Harper, personally, is for restricting abortion, but it would be as you pointed out political suicide for his party to broach this issue in parliament, because quite frankly there is no overall support for it being that Mulcair’s NDP party, and more recently, the Liberal party guided as such by Justin Trudeau are not interested in changing the laws concerning abortion (although there are pro-life Liberals and Conservative that are wanting to change this, they are still in the minority). I think in such a situation it is up to pro-life advocates to change the hearts of every day people at the grassroots level, i.e., evangelize, moreover, the more people that continue to witness to pro-Aborts in parliament or society the more chances we have in changing the laws.

p.s. Canada is a democracy, just not a perfect one, i.e., the elites and media (be they private or state funded) are very liberal in their views and they are the ones that continue to exert their ideology on the rest of Canada, which I am convinced is more conservative than one would imagine.

 

[josie_L]

Josie L.
Not to make this personal, but you seem awfully invested in this particular story (events in the Ukraine), here and in WN. It causes many here to wonder why…

As to this issue, I will simply re-post what I posted on WN that got lost in the thread.
I would like to chime in as a person who has observed history since a child.
We are playing a VERY dangerous game in the Ukraine.
Maybe Americans are so used to seeing corporate media’s view of the world they are blind to what the rest of the world sees. If the EU and the US continues, we will at best, change the economic future for the worst in the western world. Especially if China joins with Russia on their economic future.
At worst, we are headed for another World War.
I’ve been concerned about this since Obama took office and recieved a “Peace Prize” almost automatically. In '08 I thought that was like stamping “unsinkable” on the Titanic. A challenge to God like that, can only lead to the worst of consequences.
I sincerely hope and pray I am wrong.

And that is why I am “awfully invested in this particular story”, unbelievable!!!

 

[Son_of_Niall]

And that is why I am “awfully invested in this particular story”, unbelievable!!!

Then I would suggest you get away from the computer for a few days and calm down.

 

[dvdjs]

Well there would be a mix of opinions, from my experience. But most get it. Some thugs in the East co-opted a cherished symbol. And it is the thugs that are being lambasted.

rferl.org/content/ukraine-colorado-beetle-separatists/25365793.html

 

[KyivAndrew]

George Weigel, John Paul 2’s biographer and perhaps one of America’s most famous Catholic commentators writes recently in First Things about the Head of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church - Major Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk:

When we first met in April 2011, what initially impressed me about Sviatoslav Shevchuk was his almost preternatural calm: which was striking, in that, less than a month before and still a few weeks shy of his forty-first birthday, Shevchuk had been elected Major-Archbishop of Kyiv-Halych and head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church—the largest of the Eastern Catholic Churches, Byzantine in liturgy and governance while in full communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Shevchuk had been snatched out of Buenos Aires, where he was bishop to the Ukrainian diaspora there (and a friend of the city’s Latin-rite archbishop, Jorge Mario Bergoglio), and thrust into the position previously filled by some of the most formidable figures in modern Catholic history… In 2011, when we had a wide-ranging conversation in Rome, Major-Archbishop Shevchuk might have looked forward to three and a half decades of work building his Church in Ukraine and strengthening the links between the motherland and Ukrainian emigres around the world…

Then events took over, as they have a tendency to do.

For the past six months, Major-Archbishop Shevchuk has been a key figure in the Maidan revolution of dignity that first demanded a return to the elementary decencies of public life in Ukraine, and then set about building a new Ukrainian political order. After the Russian invasion of his country, Major-Archbishop Shevchuk has worked tirelessly to inform the world of the truth of Ukraine’s plight and to maintain, under extreme pressure, the new Ukraine’s commitment to the civic virtues that inspired the Maidan movement in the first place.

So I was all the more impressed that Major-Archbishop Shevchuk was as calm as ever when he called me in Rome on the evening of April 30. We were both in the city for the canonizations of John XXIII and John Paul II, and while our schedules hadn’t permitted another meeting, the archbishop wanted to talk over his country’s dire situation—and to send a message to Russia and the Russian Orthodox Church.

The message to Russia was simple:

We in Ukraine wish to be good neighbors. Do not attack us. We are not your enemies, and we have no aggressive intentions.

The message to the Russian Orthodox Church, whose leaders had too often been tacit or explicit mouthpieces for the Putin government’s propaganda and lies, was similar:

The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is not an enemy of the Russian Orthodox Church. We are your brothers; we have been born from the same spiritual womb. From the holy city of Kyiv, where our peoples were baptized, we are sending you a message of peace. Do not let politicians provoke hatred and bloodshed among us.

Major-Archbishop Shevchuk is no naïf. **He understands that the Putin propaganda machine aims at nothing less than deconstructing the very idea of “Ukraine” as an independent nation, expressive of a distinctive culture and worthy of independent statehood. Thus while crisply describing the Russian “psychological” attack that aimed to “divide and disintegrate” his country, his bottom line was that “Ukraine does exist and will exist,” and is “prepared” spiritually to resist whatever may come. That spiritual resistance is, of course, made possible by leadership. And both leadership and resistance are strengthened by intercession; as Major-Archbishop Shevchuk put it, “St. John Paul II will protect us and protect the world from new iron curtains and new Berlin Walls.”
**
All of which is deeply moving, even as it throws into sharp relief the fecklessness of Washington, Brussels, London, Paris, and Berlin in addressing Vladimir Putin’s mendacity, aggression, and brutality.

(emphasis mine)

firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2014/05/an-archbishop-of-destiny

I agree with George Weigel completely and do not feel I have to be reticent in agreeing with such a famous Catholic, George Weigel, on a Catholic Forum, of all places.

 

[malphono]

Shame there’s no way to “ignore” a thread. This one could have been interesting but has clearly gone strictly political. If it were possible, I’d use the “ignore” option in a heartbeat so that I didn’t even have to look for other new posts in the forum.

But since I can’t do that and since I’m here now, I might as well add that I have my own position on the Ukraine issue and believe me, it’s NOT favorable to:

• (a) Soviet Union, or
• (b) Uncle Joe and his “let’s arbitrarily shift boundaries and people for the sole purpose of making sure there’s a sufficient ethnic Russian minority in whatever “republic” to destabilize things so that all power stays in Moscow” mentality, or
• (c) the whole “Mother Russia” * (which has no business meddling in Ukraine – and never has – just as the US had/has no business meddling in Iraq, etc) thing either, or
• (d) … I won’t fill in the blank, but where I was headed is probably clear

That said, beyond this one post which is mainly designed to express my disappointment at the strictly political turn this thread has taken, I’m not about to get involved in such a discussion, particularly in this sub-forum. Seems to me it’d be out-of-place, just like the thread itself.

So whereas I unfortunately cannot ignore the thread, I am unsubscribing after this one post. Best I can do.

• This reminds me of an address given many years ago where the speaker, who was Flemish but served in the British Army in WWII, said something to the effect of: “Why do they call England the ‘Mother Country’? Very simple: because she’s always expecting.” Seems to fit here very well.

 

[Nine_Two]

George Weigel, John Paul 2’s biographer and perhaps one of America’s most famous Catholic commentators writes recently in First Things about the Head of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church - Major Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk:

(emphasis mine)

firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2014/05/an-archbishop-of-destiny

I agree with George Weigel completely and do not feel I have to be reticent in agreeing with such a famous Catholic, George Weigel, on a Catholic Forum, of all places.

So to shorten that, he already hated Putin, and Russia, like so many other Ukrainians.

I’m not really sure what that has to do with anything.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Shame there’s no way to “ignore” a thread. This one could have been interesting but has clearly gone strictly political. If it were possible, I’d use the “ignore” option in a heartbeat so that I didn’t even have to look for other new posts in the forum.

But since I can’t do that and since I’m here now, I might as well add that I have my own position on the Ukraine issue and believe me, it’s NOT favorable to:

• (a) Soviet Union, or
• (b) Uncle Joe and his “let’s arbitrarily shift boundaries and people for the sole purpose of making sure there’s a sufficient ethnic Russian minority in whatever “republic” to destabilize things so that all power stays in Moscow” mentality, or
• (c) the whole “Mother Russia” * (which has no business meddling in Ukraine – and never has – just as the US had/has no business meddling in Iraq, etc) thing either, or
• (d) … I won’t fill in the blank, but where I was headed is probably clear

That said, beyond this one post which is mainly designed to express my disappointment at the strictly political turn this thread has taken, I’m not about to get involved in such a discussion, particularly in this sub-forum. Seems to me it’d be out-of-place, just like the thread itself.

So whereas I unfortunately cannot ignore the thread, I am unsubscribing after this one post. Best I can do.

• This reminds me of an address given many years ago where the speaker, who was Flemish but served in the British Army in WWII, said something to the effect of: “Why do they call England the ‘Mother Country’? Very simple: because she’s always expecting.” Seems to fit here very well.

Well, before you leave, I agree with what you have written Malphono. I purposefully stayed off this thread for four days hoping to stay off but, in the end, realizing no Ukrainian Catholic has yet posted on this thread I felt I had to say something as a Ukrainian Catholic as it concerns the Head of my Church, my parents’ homeland Ukraine, and Canada; I didn’t want the narrative to suddenly become completely anti-Ukraine or its churches, plus the ad hominems (directed at Josie for instance) are out of line.

This is the Eastern Catholicism Forum meant to discuss our Churches, not launch personal attacks.

 

[Melchizedek89]

Am I supposed to care that a total stranger decided to insult me, not really, moreover, you still have not provided sources, it might good if you did so though, so people know you’re not just throwing words like “Nazified” indiscriminately.

Insult you? No. I’m “sanctifying” you!

 

[Melchizedek89]

Well, I do, although that doesn’t mean that I agree with everything he does or says, for example, I don’t like the fact that he has disallowed members of his party from reopening the abortion issue, although there has been talk about sex-selective abortions in parliament, and it has compelled the Harper government to condemn gender-selection abortions at the party’s convention in November (2013). I think Harper, personally, is for restricting abortion, but it would be as you pointed out political suicide for his party to broach this issue in parliament, because quite frankly there is no overall support for it being that Mulcair’s NDP party, and more recently, the Liberal party guided as such by Justin Trudeau are not interested in changing the laws concerning abortion (although there are pro-life Liberals and Conservative that are wanting to change this, they are still in the minority). I think in such a situation it is up to pro-life advocates to change the hearts of every day people at the grassroots level, i.e., evangelize, moreover, the more people that continue to witness to pro-Aborts in parliament or society the more chances we have in changing the laws.

p.s. Canada is a democracy, just not a perfect one, i.e., the elites and media (be they private or state funded) are very liberal in their views and they are the ones that continue to exert their ideology on the rest of Canada, which I am convinced is more conservative than one would imagine.

Ahh yes, the whole public vs. private political dichotomy insanity. They try to pump everyone full of that s**t at grad school these days too. You are defined by your actions, and Harper has been completely inactive in this issue. Having spent some time around a few “movers and shakers” in the political realm during my time at grad school, I can attest to the fact that many of them don’t seem… “normal”. I, for one, would be exuberant to give up a career in politics for what’s true!

Keep on doing your “evangelization” thing… maybe being “nice” and subtle to those in power will eventually work (never mind that it hasn’t ever before). The whole system is rotten in the western world, and if you’re a clear thinking individual who acts according to conscience then you have no chance of holding political office for any length of time.

 

[Melchizedek89]

Then I would suggest you get away from the computer for a few days and calm down.

 

[malphono]

Well, before you leave, I agree with what you have written Malphono.

I purposefully stayed off this thread for four days hoping to stay off but, in the end, realizing no Ukrainian Catholic has yet posted on this thread I felt I had to say something as a Ukrainian Catholic as it concerns the Head of my Church, my parents’ homeland Ukraine, and Canada; I didn’t want the narrative to suddenly become completely anti-Ukraine or its churches, plus the ad hominems (directed at Josie for instance) are out of line.

This is the Eastern Catholicism Forum meant to discuss our Churches, not launch personal attacks.

I would likely have done the same thing had the topic concerned my ethnic heritage. (Actually I have done, in the past but I digress.) And yes, the ad hominem attacks are 100% uncalled for. Those are what really made and, (this is **NOT **directed to you, BTW - as I see it you’ve been a perfect gentleman) since they don’t seem to have stopped, continue to make this thread to be so unpleasant and, well … uncharitable.

 

[Melchizedek89]

According to the article you provided:

If, I’m not mistaken the last election is a reference to the elections in 2012, as such the party Svoboda has been a presence in Ukraine prior to the Euromaidan protests, and even if there are a few ministers from the Svoboda party in the interim Ukrainian government this does not mean that the whole of the government is Fascist (nor does the fact that they hold seats in parliament for as I pointed out other countries, including Russia, have far more members that are far-right sitting in parliament), i.e., **to paint the whole government has fascist is mere hyperbole. **

Here’s a list of cabinet ministers in the Interim government of Ukraine:

novinite.com/articles/158543/Kyiv+Post%3A+The+not-so-revolutionary+New+Ukraine+Government

I think what most of us need to worry about is the Russian/pro-Russian ultra-Nationalists that are terrorizing parts of the Eastern Ukraine, especially in light of the fact that most people in the Eastern Ukraine want remain united to the Ukraine (about 70% according to the latest Pew Research study).

The fascists (ideological descendants on the nasty character known as Stepan Bandera) are just in “active” positions where they can do some damage. Like National Defence. Not to worry, the ministries of dance, painting, culture, and education are probably safe in “liberal” hands. So safe, in fact, that if a big collapse doesn’t happen soon, in a few years’ time you may have sexual deviants celebrating their particular perversions in Ukrainian streets. That kind of thing is important to unite Europe more completely in heresy, schism, and abominable sins.

 

[Melchizedek89]

I would likely have done the same thing had the topic concerned my ethnic heritage. (Actually I have done, in the past but I digress.) And yes, the ad hominem attacks are 100% uncalled for. Those are what really made and, (this is **NOT **directed to you, BTW - as I see it you’ve been a perfect gentleman) since they don’t seem to have stopped, continue to make this thread to be so unpleasant and, well … uncharitable.

You mean it was uncharitable when I said that Josie is block-headed and rabidly Russophobic? That’s an observation plain as day for anyone with eyes to see, and not an attack.

 

[malphono]

You mean it was uncharitable when I said that Josie is block-headed and rabidly Russophobic? That’s an observation plain as day for anyone with eyes to see, and not an attack.

Yes, I think it was. Whether that observation is as “plain as day” or not is debatable: I don’t see it and I DO have eyes as well as a functioning brain. But whatever. I said I was not going to get into this slam-fest, and I WILL NOT. No amount of baiting is going to change that. All I will say is that, as far as I’m concerned, such remarks have no place in this particular sub-forum.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

She might view what I said as an attack, but it was not. It was concern if anything.
Calling her a “blockhead” was unnecessary IMO. The level of emotion in an issue such as this must be checked. Something I do not see being practiced in the WN thread. We should be charitable in our responses, no matter how we feel about the information being relayed.
I am against war and bloodshed of any sort. So I am immediately suspicious of any news designed to illicit emotions without rational consideration. Since I no longer rely on corporate-controlled media outlets, I am free to look at stories much more objectively. Non-American sources, including RT have there own issues, but nevertheless give a wider view of an issue than say, if I relied solely on CNN or Fox. Emotional manipulation of a public, by news outlets, can be very subtle. Many times it’s not what they DO report, it’s what they ignore. Propaganda only works on an emotional level. Not on a rational level.
I can frankly say, the only media outlets I see beating the drums of war, are American/western news sources. Very similar to the run-up to the war in Iraq.
And that to me, is pretty scary.

 

[Melchizedek89]

She might view what I said as an attack, but it was not. It was concern if anything.
Calling her a “blockhead” was unnecessary IMO. The level of emotion in an issue such as this must be checked. Something I do not see being practiced in the WN thread. We should be charitable in our responses, no matter how we feel about the information being relayed.
I am against war and bloodshed of any sort. So I am immediately suspicious of any news designed to illicit emotions without rational consideration. Since I no longer rely on corporate-controlled media outlets, I am free to look at stories much more objectively. Non-American sources, including RT have there own issues, but nevertheless give a wider view of an issue than say, if I relied solely on CNN or Fox. Emotional manipulation of a public, by news outlets, can be very subtle. Many times it’s not what they DO report, it’s what they ignore. Propaganda only works on an emotional level. Not on a rational level.
I can frankly say, the only media outlets I see beating the drums of war, are American/western news sources. Very similar to the run-up to the war in Iraq.
And that to me, is pretty scary.

Well, to re-phrase myself, some people take a certain viewpoint on an issue, and feel emotionally invested in it. There’s an enemy, and there’s the “good guys”. They’ll pick news sources that reinforce this viewpoint, and facts to the contrary or logical inconsistencies don’t sink in or are written off as purely “propaganda”. Since I spend my average days spewing intellectualisms and trying not to blow my top and say something horribly politically incorrect, I like to keep things simple in my other communications. Blockhead is shorthand for such a person.

That said, being a blockhead about certain things has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with important stuff such as a person’s salvation, or the majority of their relationships. Josie may very well be a much holier person than I’ll ever be, and I don’t say that in jest. Internet forums really aren’t a great place to discuss complex topics… in person is much better.

I can’t agree more with your analysis about the mainstream American media… it’s very, very concerning…

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Well, to re-phrase myself, some people take a certain viewpoint on an issue, and feel emotionally invested in it. There’s an enemy, and there’s the “good guys”. They’ll pick news sources that reinforce this viewpoint, and facts to the contrary or logical inconsistencies don’t sink in or are written off as purely “propaganda”. Since I spend my average days spewing intellectualisms and trying not to blow my top and say something horribly politically incorrect, I like to keep things simple in my other communications. Blockhead is shorthand for such a person.

That said, being a blockhead about certain things has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with important stuff such as a person’s salvation, or the majority of their relationships. Josie may very well be a much holier person than I’ll ever be, and I don’t say that in jest. Internet forums really aren’t a great place to discuss complex topics… in person is much better.

I can’t agree more with your analysis about the mainstream American media… it’s very, very concerning…

Well, thank you.
But I need to tell you such language is against forum rules. Since you’re a newbie, you might want to familiarize yourself with them so as not to incur problems in the future.

 

[Melchizedek89]

Well, thank you.
But I need to tell you such language is against forum rules. Since you’re a newbie, you might want to familiarize yourself with them so as not to incur problems in the future.

Ok, I’ll try to restrain myself more in the future.