Ukrainians upset at Pope?

[mardukm]

Are Ukranian Catholics angry at the Pope for not more explicitly supporting their desire for a Catholic Ukranian Patriarchate? Or are most Ukrainians more sensitive to the tense ecclesiastical situation of the country?

Blessings

 

[rien]

Are Ukranian Catholics angry at the Pope for not more explicitly supporting their desire for a Catholic Ukranian Patriarchate? Or are most Ukrainians more sensitive to the tense ecclesiastical situation of the country?

Blessings

From my understanding many are indeed upset. In their opinion some think the Pope is abandoning the Ukranian Catholics’ desire for a Patriarch in favor of courting favor with Moscow. I have read both Rome and Moscow have agreed that going forward the Ukranian model is not acceptable. If someone can confirm or deny that please do. I hope it is not true as it would be a slap in the face to the Ukranians IMO.

The SSPX is making a lot of inroads in Ukraine among Greek Catholics in part supposedly because of this. They support the Greek Catholic desires for a Patriarche. Now how much of that is sinere or just trying to win supporters in Ukraine by the SSPX is the question. I don’t know the answer.

I was given a tape of a talk by the SSPX rep to Ukraine. He spoke of the new seminary just established there and how some bishops in the Ukraine can’t remove “traditionalist” priests - those strongly expousing for a Patriarch - from parishes because the congregation will not accept it. Of course this is a total denial of traditional Catholic church governance. I suspect the SSPX would not be as approving if a liberal parish in the US refused to accept a new less liberal priest appointed by the bishop. Two edged sword here.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Are Ukranian Catholics angry at the Pope for not more explicitly supporting their desire for a Catholic Ukranian Patriarchate? Or are most Ukrainians more sensitive to the tense ecclesiastical situation of the country?

Marduk,

The Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church sui iuris is the largest of the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches. As such, its faithful believe that it should be accorded patrarchal status. With that belief in place, they are understandably upset that Rome declines to do so - whether it be to preserve some historical notion as regards the patriarchates or to assuage ecclesio-political concerns (and not in their country, but an adjacent one).

Now, for various reasons, not all other Eastern and Oriental Catholics necessarily believe that the UGCC should be a patriarchate - but all fully understand that the unstated reasons behind Rome’s decision are the same ones that deny a hierarchy to our Russian Greek-Catholic Church brethren - a situation that virtually all of us find appalling.

As to the SSPX in Ukraine - they could care less about the UGCC’s patriarchal status. Their ploy is to induce UGCC faithful to join them in their faux “Byzantine” branch by manipulation of those in the UGCC who are attached to latinizations - claiming that such have now become “tradition” to the Ukes. It’s the ultimate farce - creating a hybrid latinized byzantine form and calling it a norm.

Many years,

Neil

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Neil,

I always greatly appreciate your scholarly (name removed by moderator)ut in this Forum (and everywhere else!). I do have a question on this portion of your response:

Now, for various reasons, not all other Eastern and Oriental Catholics necessarily believe that the UGCC should be a patriarchate - but all fully understand that the unstated reasons behind Rome’s decision are the same ones that deny a hierarchy to our Russian Greek-Catholic Church brethren - a situation that virtually all of us find appalling.

What is the situation that is appalling:

1. The Pope not recognizing patriarchal status?
2. The Pope giving in to religious-political pressure?
3. The religious-political pressure put on the Pope by our EO brethren?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Irish_Melkite]

What is the situation that is appalling:

1. The Pope not recognizing patriarchal status?
2. The Pope giving in to religious-political pressure?
3. The religious-political pressure put on the Pope by our EO brethren?

Marduk,

What is appalling, regardless of what motivates it, is the failure to afford hierarchical successors to such as Blessed Exarchs Leonid Feodorov and Kliment Sheptytsky.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Edmac]

Thank you, Irish Melkite, for your remark about the
Russian Catholic Church. Our former pastor was in
contact with some of the priests and people in Russia
and they were getting no support from anyone that we
could tell. The previous Archbishop of Moscow was perecieved
as hostile. (Let us pray that the new one will do better).

We did have a report from one of their priests who visited Rome,
and he seems to have been warmly received there. The Russians
were asking for an exarchate to be establish and had selected
a candidate. This was not accepted and they were put under
the omophor (jurisdiction) of Bp. Wirth of Novisibirsk. We have
heard very little from them since. I have been asking around
recently, but have learned nothing. Bp. Wirth has the
reputation of being sympathetic to Eastern Catholics.

At least canonical recognition has been extended to the
parishes, and that is something. The question now is whether
they are being nurtured or just kept under wraps.

Interestingly enough, I have been told by those who should know
that the Congregation for Eastern Churches has been supportive
of my own parish against requests by certain parties to close
us down. (Why anyone would ask this I cannot imagine.
We cost them nothing, have no scandals, and cause no
furors).

Edmac

 

[Hesychios]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello Edmac,
May I ask…(I am assuming you are in the USA) is your parish in New York, Colorado or California? I cannot remember any other currently open Russian Catholic parishes in North America.

And who wants to shut your parish down? If you cannot answer that here can you state the reasons given for this proposal?

Michael

 

[Edmac]

Hi, Michael;

I belong to St. Michael’s Russian Catholic Church in NYC
(266 Mulberry St).

Besides us there are the parishes in El Segundo and
San Francisco, CA and Fr. Frank’s parish in Denver.
The parish in Montreal was closed several years ago,
the one in Boston long before that.

It would not be discrete to mention futher details about
the reported attempt to close us and as for why anyone
would want to, I cannot imagine.

Ed

 

[Hesychios]

HI Ed,

Hi, Michael;

I belong to St. Michael’s Russian Catholic Church in NYC
(266 Mulberry St).

Besides us there are the parishes in El Segundo and
San Francisco, CA and Fr. Frank’s parish in Denver.
The parish in Montreal was closed several years ago,
the one in Boston long before that.

It would not be discrete to mention futher details about
the reported attempt to close us and as for why anyone
would want to, I cannot imagine.

Ed

My first exposure to the Byzantine-Slavonic rite was at Christ the Redeemer Belarussian parish in Chicago. It followed the Synodal (Nikonian) recension. After the repose of bishop Tarasevich it continued to decline and the Archdiocese of Chicago closed it a few years ago.

In it’s later years the parish shared the facility with a Romanian mission which had liturgy on the same altar in the afternoon (** !** ), and they inherited use of the structure, but I don’t know if they had to buy it from the Archdiocese or were given a deed to it (or rent). Since the Romanians have a hierarchy of their own they can at least be assured that their own circumstances will change only when their bishop is in agreement.

 

[NewAbdalMaseeh]

I belong to St. Michael’s Russian Catholic Church in NYC (266 Mulberry St).

WOW! I have passed that Church inumerable many times in the last, er, 10 years. I never gave it much thought, but I was under the impression it was Orthodox (perhaps, I now confess, due to silly stereotypes floating around inside my mind).

Perhaps I will visit - I assume it is okay to walk in for mass and stand quietly in the back (am I correct?).

---

On a related note (exuding a similar amount of ignorance rooted in stereotypes), is St. George’s, on 7th and Taras Shevchenko (just east of the Bowery) also in communion with Rome?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. . .
Besides us there are the parishes in El Segundo and
San Francisco, CA and Fr. Frank’s parish in Denver.
The parish in Montreal was closed several years ago,
the one in Boston long before that. . . .

I live about 30 miles south of El Segundo and have been a EMHC to the Sick. About a year ago I was requested to take communion to a lady in our area who was home bound. It turned out that she belongs to the El Segundo parish but has been unable to get there, so has been coming to our [Latin] church. We had several pleasant discussions of the Russian Church.

 

[Edmac]

This reply is directed at NewAbdalmaseeh;

Hey, guy, walk right in (but don’t sit down unless you’re an old
codger). Liturgy at 11 on Sundays, trapesa (coffee hour) after
that. We love visitors. No one will bite you (unless my friend
Augie, feel free to bite him back).

Also feel free to ask for me. I’m the only Ed around.

Vespers at 6PM on Saturdays.

Vesper Liturgy for the Feast of St. Nick at 6PM this
Wednesday.

St. George’s (more accurately being described as being
across the street from McSorley’s Old Ale House), is indeed
a Ukrainian Catholic church (and very beautiful) but I think they
do everything in Ukrainian. We mix and match, Slavonic and
English.

Edmac

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Ed,

That anyone would consider suppression of Saint Michael’s is appalling, albeit not altogether surprising - unfortunately. That the Congregation would be opposed to such is also not surprising - given the history of Saint Michael’s and its association with so many revered persons, Vladyka Andrei (Katkoff), Father John (Wilcock), Father Walter (Ciszek), Helen Izwolsky, Catherine de Hueck Dougherty, and Dorothy Day, all of blessed memory, to name but a few.

My first experience of a Divine Liturgy, (almost 50 years ago ) was of one served according to the Great Russian/Nikonian Rescension by Mitred Archimandrite John Mowatt, of blessed memory, and I have many fond memories of Our Lady of Kazan Russian GC Chapel, also of blessed memory, in South Boston. On a single occasion, I had the joy of attending Divine Liturgy at Presentation of the Mother of God in Montreal, also now of blessed memory, as you note (10 years this year since its suppression, if I remember correctly).

Father Archimandrite Alexei in El Segundo, who serves both Saint Andrew’s Russian and St Paul’s Melkite, is an old friend, since his days in attendance at our seminary.

I believe that Father Economos Romanos Russo of our Eparchy is presently serving the community at Saint Michael’s. Am I correct?

Many years,

Neil

 

[Edmac]

Dear Neil;

I see you know us well , which is a joy to me.

Yes, Father Economos Romanos (who now uses the
Russian version, Roman) has been our pastor for the
last two years or so, since Fr. John Soles was recalled to
Catalonia by his bishop (he is incardinated to the Diocese
of Gerona). He and Matushka Fran are well and celebrating the
birth of their third grandson. He is serving us with the full
approbation of your eparch, the Archbishop of NY and
the Congregation for Eastern Churches. Fr. Fred Saato of
your Church is usually present at Liturgy and generally
covers for Fr. Roman when necessary.

I myself am a relative newcomer, having discovered St.
Michael’s only twelve years ago. As I have probably
said elsewhere, I had didn’t go there with any intention
leaving the Western Church. I only wanted to find out how
the Byzantine Liturgy worked. You can’t tell just from
books and records. I had tried St. George’s UGCC, but it
was all in Ukrainian and that didn’t help much. I was going
to try St. Mary’s Ruthenian church up by Stuyvesant Town
when St. M.'s put an ad in the [TimesI] saying they were
changing the hour of Liturgy. Well, I knew where St. M.'s
was, being a native of this city, and so off I went. I was
totally bewildered but also enchanted by the Liturgy and
warmly received by the people. It was not many months
before I decided to stay. I have been canonically Russian
for about ten years.

Fr. Deacon Chris turned out to have been acquainted with
my sister Dot at the Catholic Center at NYU. He and I
had a mutual acquaintance among the Roman clergy,
as well. I have since spent years on the Parish
Council, among other things.

That anyone would think of closing St. Michael’s is indeed
appalling and , to repeat myself, to me totally incomprehensible.
This is not something I will discuss publicly since the matter
is delicate and my knowledge is second-hand.

We are limited by our lack of space. You know the place
and are aware that fifty people is an overflow crowd. You can
imagine what it’s like at Pascha.Fr. Roman has hopes that
the Archdiocese will find us a new home about which I have
very mixed feelings. I am very fond of the old place (built
in 1859 to be the Chancery Office) where so many holy
people have worshipped.

Once a year we go down into the burial crypts under Old
St. Patrick’s (how many people know they exist?) and
celebrate Great Pankhida at the tomb of Fr. Andrew
(our founder, for those who don’t know). That is an
experience.

Our existance is precarious but it always has been. Did you
know that Fr. Andrew expected the chapel to close after
his death? That happened thirty-three years ago and we’re
still here. We will be around as long as the Lord wills us to
be.

God and Mary be with you (I know how to say it in Irish but
can’t spell it).

Ed

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Yes, Father Economos Romanos (who now uses the Russian version, Roman) has been our pastor for the last two years or so, since Fr. John Soles was recalled to
Catalonia by his bishop (he is incardinated to the Diocese of Gerona). He and Matushka Fran are well and celebrating the birth of their third grandson. He is serving us with the full approbation of your eparch, the Archbishop of NY and the Congregation for Eastern Churches. Fr. Fred Saato of your Church is usually present at Liturgy and generally covers for Fr. Roman when necessary.

I knew that Father Romanos assisted there back in the '80s and had heard that he was serving there these past couple of years. I know him by sight and he’d likely recognize me from the Melkite Cathedral, but we don’t really know one another. My prayers for his coming grandchild. I’ve known Father Fred for many years.

Once a year we go down into the burial crypts under Old
St. Patrick’s (how many people know they exist?) and celebrate Great Pankhida at the tomb of Fr. Andrew (our founder, for those who don’t know). That is an experience.

Our existance is precarious but it always has been. Did you know that Fr. Andrew expected the chapel to close after his death? That happened thirty-three years ago and we’re still here. We will be around as long as the Lord wills us to be.

Memory eternal to Father Protopresbyter Andrew and the other priests who have served St Michael’s. I like the new exterior picture on the website btw. I wish they’d add some interior shots.

God and Mary be with you (I know how to say it in Irish but
can’t spell it).

That makes two of us, my friend

Many years,

Neil

 

[mardukm]

I am learning much here. Thank you all. I never knew there were Latin Russian Catholics and Byzantine Russian Catholics. I thought all Russian Catholics had the same patrimony as the ROC.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Edmac]

Most Catholics in Russia are Latins of Polish, German,
Lithuanian (etc) descent plus converts of other ethnicities.

Most Byzantine Catholics in Russia would be of Ukrainian
or Rusyn descent. Added to them are Byzantine Russian-Catholics who adhere to the sui juris Church admitted to
the Catholic communion in 1905. All these are, as far as I
know, subject to Latin ordinaries at the present time.

Edmac

 

[peary]

From my understanding many are indeed upset. In their opinion some think the Pope is abandoning the Ukranian Catholics’ desire for a Patriarch in favor of courting favor with Moscow. I have read both Rome and Moscow have agreed that going forward the Ukranian model is not acceptable. If someone can confirm or deny that please do. I hope it is not true as it would be a slap in the face to the Ukranians IMO.

The SSPX is making a lot of inroads in Ukraine among Greek Catholics in part supposedly because of this. They support the Greek Catholic desires for a Patriarche. Now how much of that is sinere or just trying to win supporters in Ukraine by the SSPX is the question. I don’t know the answer.

I was given a tape of a talk by the SSPX rep to Ukraine. He spoke of the new seminary just established there and how some bishops in the Ukraine can’t remove “traditionalist” priests - those strongly expousing for a Patriarch - from parishes because the congregation will not accept it. Of course this is a total denial of traditional Catholic church governance. I suspect the SSPX would not be as approving if a liberal parish in the US refused to accept a new less liberal priest appointed by the bishop. Two edged sword here.

I thought that the pope had appointed a bishop to take care of Catholics in the Ukraine. Am I wrong on this?

 

[Edmac]

Yes. You are thinking of the Russian Catholics who were
put under the jurisdiction of Bp Werth of Novisiberski.

The Ukrainians have bishops of their own. They also have
a Major-Archbishop whose name is Lyubomir. This title is not
traditional in Eastern Churches and is unknown in the West
as well. It seems to mean “Patriarch but not quite”. The
Ukrainians want the Holy See to recognize Lyubomir as
a Patriarch as they do themselves (and as I do, for what it’s
worth). Rome has not agreed to this for fear, as it is thought,
of offending the very easily offended Russian Othodox hierarchs.
That is why Ukrainians might be upset at the Pope.

Edmac

 

[Joe_Kelley]

There is also a Ukranian Orthodox Church that at odds with Moscow. It would be interesting if the two Ukranian Churches were to unite, declare one of the leaders Patriarch and present Moscow and Rome with a fait acompli.

Moscow would probably have a fit, but would Rome turn them away?