Ukrainians upset at Pope?

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There is also a Ukranian Orthodox Church that at odds with Moscow. It would be interesting if the two Ukranian Churches were to unite, declare one of the leaders Patriarch and present Moscow and Rome with a fait acompli.

Moscow would probably have a fit, but would Rome turn them away?
Quite possibly. Due to notable liturgical praxis differences (small but persistent), and the questionable status of the Independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church, their patriarch being accepted is unlikely.

Further, that group also rejects supranational churches as a foundational issue. Their declaration of their primate as a Patriarch is not accepted by any other group as far as can be told.

Further, some of their bishops have some interesting (read as “bordering on heretical”) theological ideals.
 
Quite possibly. Due to notable liturgical praxis differences (small but persistent), and the questionable status of the Independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church, their patriarch being accepted is unlikely.

Further, that group also rejects supranational churches as a foundational issue. Their declaration of their primate as a Patriarch is not accepted by any other group as far as can be told.

Further, some of their bishops have some interesting (read as “bordering on heretical”) theological ideals.
What ‘bordering on heretical’ ideals do they have?
 
What ‘bordering on heretical’ ideals do they have?
Tacit endorsement of homosexual practice by attending Anglican bishop’s ordinations of homosexuals.

That a national particular church should answer to no other body whatsoever.

That a nation requires a singular national church.

A few of their bishops have written some further afield stuff, and some are darned orthodox.
 
Tacit endorsement of homosexual practice by attending Anglican bishop’s ordinations of homosexuals.

That a national particular church should answer to no other body whatsoever.

That a nation requires a singular national church.

A few of their bishops have written some further afield stuff, and some are darned orthodox.
Making charges like that, one needs to define the Church of which he speaks, considering that there are minimally 3 styled as Orthodox in Ukraine - the UOC-MP, the UAOC, and at least another - current name of which escapes me at the moment.

Neil
 
Making charges like that, one needs to define the Church of which he speaks, considering that there are minimally 3 styled as Orthodox in Ukraine - the UOC-MP, the UAOC, and at least another - current name of which escapes me at the moment.

Neil
Neil, if you read the charge, it’sthe UAOC, which on some of their websites is also called the Independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church, or Ukrainan Orthodox Church - Kyiv Patriarchate , quite obviously. The bishop going far afield is Peter Paul. He’s an interesting study in contradictions… affiliated with a nationalist church, but outside that nation, pushing the envelope by going places no Catholic nor Orthodox Bishop should, yet preaching the Gospel in quite an orthodox manner.
 
Neil, if you read the charge, it’sthe UAOC, which on some of their websites is also called the Independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church, or Ukrainan Orthodox Church - Kyiv Patriarchate , quite obviously. The bishop going far afield is Peter Paul. He’s an interesting study in contradictions… affiliated with a nationalist church, but outside that nation, pushing the envelope by going places no Catholic nor Orthodox Bishop should, yet preaching the Gospel in quite an orthodox manner.
My post, which contributed to this fiasco, should have read
Making charges like that, one needs to define the Church of which he speaks, considering that there are minimally 3 styled as Orthodox in Ukraine - the UOC-MP, the UOC-KP, and the UAOC - at least
The UOC-KP, Patriarch Filaret’s Church, has it’s own issues but should not be confused with Metropolitan Mefodiy’s UAOC. The latter is considered canonical by no one and taken seriously by few.

Many years,

Neil
 
I’m not sure if this has been posted here on this forum yet, but it may provide some insights - and perspective - on the situation, despite the fact that it dates back to 1994.

[ncronline.org/ma(name removed by moderator)age/specialdocuments/taft.htm](http://ncronline.org/ma(name removed by moderator)age/specialdocuments/taft.htm)

Personally, I’m quite sympathetic to Fr. Taft’s position vis-a-vis Moscow.

Gordo 👍
 
I’m not sure if this has been posted here on this forum yet, but it may provide some insights - and perspective - on the situation, despite the fact that it dates back to 1994.

[ncronline.org/ma(name removed by moderator)age/specialdocuments/taft.htm](http://ncronline.org/ma(name removed by moderator)age/specialdocuments/taft.htm)

Personally, I’m quite sympathetic to Fr. Taft’s position vis-a-vis Moscow.

Gordo 👍
With his mixture of towering erudition, controversial opinions and blunt rhetoric (“to hell with Moscow”), he’s sort of sui iuris himself now.

This time I agree with him that there’s no objective reason for not recognizing a Ukrainian Patriarchate besides the potential backlash from ecumenism cops like Kasper.
 
There is also a Ukranian Orthodox Church that at odds with Moscow. It would be interesting if the two Ukranian Churches were to unite, declare one of the leaders Patriarch and present Moscow and Rome with a fait acompli.

Moscow would probably have a fit, but would Rome turn them away?
Actually that is likely what will happen. Ukrainian Catholics and “separatist” Ukranian Orthodox forming their own church. Both feel betrayed - by Rome or Moscow.

Once that happens i doubt they will go back to Rome, let alone Moscow. The Ukranian Catholic church is in a very tenuous state now and will probbaly not exist except as a very tiny historical minority a decade or 2 from now.
 
Once that happens i doubt they will go back to Rome, let alone Moscow. The Ukranian Catholic church is in a very tenuous state now and will probbaly not exist except as a very tiny historical minority a decade or 2 from now.
Ahh…perhaps you could explain?

All indications seem to be exactly the opposite.

Gordo
 
Rien’s remarks are nonsense. The Ukrainian Catholic Church
is in anything but a tenuous state. It is full of life and vigor,
and headed by one of the most dynamic and charismatic bishops
around, His Holiness Lyubomir, Patriarch of Kyiv (and, if I had
my druthers, of all Rus’).

Edmac
 
My brother Ed’s characterization of rien’s comments is much too charitable - they are without foundation and demonstrate little to no understanding of the Ukrainian Churches or people.

Many years,

Neil
 
Are Ukranian Catholics angry at the Pope for not more explicitly supporting their desire for a Catholic Ukranian Patriarchate? Or are most Ukrainians more sensitive to the tense ecclesiastical situation of the country?

Blessings
The Ukrainian model of relationship between state and church is democratic one.
Ukraine is an Orthodox country , but it also polyconfessional country.
There are about 30 000 religious organizations.
50 religions functioning at the territory of the country.
There are plenty Protestant Unions there too.
The realization of freedom of conscience is very important for the leaderts of the Churches , because the freedom of conscience is the basic principle of human rights.
There is a tension not only with the Byzantine Catholic Church , but also between three Orthodox Churches.
On the West of Ukraine there are the temple property problems.
And tensions in these cases can be very serious.

But what we must realize is :
  • We must have the civilized approach in solving of inter-churches problems.
    The Churches of Ukraine must get ready for the constructive dialog to unite ( may be its impossible with the Church ) but at least to unite the believers , to unite the society.
If we would withstand the external factors that inspire the situations of enmity and if we would cooperate in the Spirit of God’s Wisdom , and the ‘Christs peacemaking call’
we could solve the inter-churches problems .
Of course it is easier to say than to do , especially in the matters of rights of the temples property.
But civilized approach is required.
And thank’s be to God , that God delivered us from the extreme religious violence in these tensions.
:blessyou: - Ukraine !
And let God enrich us with his peacemaking wisdom.
 
Ed and Neil have spoken well and accurately, and I must say Rien’s comments demonstrate a great ignorance of the entire church of Kyiv, Catholic and Orthodox. I would hardly say the largest Greek Catholic Church sui iuris is tenuous. Attend one of the standing room-only Divine Liturgies in Chicago at Sts. Volodymyr and Olha and I do not think one will maintain this attitude. One may also want to review the Sobor in Philadelphia as EWTN carried some of the events. I believe over 30 UGCC bishops were present.

Many years to our Patriarch Lubomyr and the entire UGCC hierarchy. Eis polla eti, Despota! Mnohaya Lita Vladyko!
 
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