um, really Joe Smith?

[rmcmullan]

to any mormon:
the bishop of rome was never an apostle therefore, satan ruled the world until peter and the other apostles laid hands on joseph smith to make him an apostle? am i correct on this? seems like you’re making Jesus out to be a liar if you really believe that.
if this is true what i have read, why whould God let people be confused for 1800 years? doesn’t seem to go with salvation history…

That’s a pretty good question, it sounds like you’ve been thinking about it. And you’re right, it is the Mormon claim to priesthood authority. The only point I’d make is the difference between priesthood authority and individual faith. The loss of the apostles did not stop the Holy Ghost. The Protestants don’t even make a claim to priesthood authority (that I know of) but that doesn’t stop them from making their own churches in order to correct what they believe are errors in their Mother church.

Were the people in ancient Israel apostates? Well some of them definitely were but there were still enough True Believers to carry out the Lord’s work. Apostacy can come and go and on both an individual and group basis. The Mormon claim is that only the priesthood authority was lost and that caused stumbling, not widespread apostacy. I’ll even give you a quote from the Book of Mormon to back this up:

1 Nephi 13:29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

I know this talks more about omissions from the Bible than the death of the Apostles, but you can read the entire thing at scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/13. If you do, please don’t panic and assume that the great and abominable church is the Catholic church, it is not! I’ve been through that one too many times. It is exactly what it says it is–the church of the devil that seeks to overthrow the work of the Only Begotten.

 

[zerinus]

You said:

Christology is either biblical, and therefore true; or else it is unbiblical and untrue

Problem with this is:

All so called christians use the bible and differ on christology.

Why do you rely souly on the bible for christology, when you admit you are not bible only?

I was discussing the subject within the contest of your own theology or religious experience. You and I have one thing in common: we both accept the Bible as scripture. I accept any Christology that is biblical.

And you avoided answering if Jesus Is mentioned in the BOM.

Well- is he? What verses, how many? Can you list them?

Yes, Jesus is mentioned in the Book of Mormon (and Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great price). How many times? Hundreds of times! I haven’t counted. Look it up in the Topical Guide attached to the LDS edition of the Bible, and you will get a good idea.

zerinus

 

[dosdog]

I was discussing the subject within the contest of your own theology or religious experience. You and I have one thing in common: we both accept the Bible as scripture. I accept any Christology that is biblical.

Yes, Jesus is mentioned in the Book of Mormon (and Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great price). How many times? Hundreds of times! I haven’t counted. Look it up in the Topical Guide attached to the LDS edition of the Bible, and you will get a good idea.

zerinus

The Annotated Book of Mormon

On a number of occasions, the Book of Mormon introduces concepts that are historically out of time. These concepts were either introduced in the New Testament, or after the Jews were deported to Babylon, and thus after the Lehites left Jerusalem. This is significant because it supports the theory that the Book of Mormon originated in the nineteenth century. Obviously, these concepts were unknown to the early Jews, but they would have been familiar to Joseph Smith.

The Messiah
Universal Depravity
Baptism
The Gospel
The Virgin Birth
Demons and Possession
Crucifixion
Satan
The Church
Hell
The Bible

KJV Translation Errors

The Book of Mormon contains a large amount of material quoted from the Bible. This material is invariably quoted from the King James Version. Whenever the KJV contains a translation error, it also appears in the Book of Mormon, proving that the KJV was the source of these quotes, and not some ancient plates.
2think.org/hundredsheep/annotated/topics.shtml

 

[Hellisreal]

Zerinus,

Tell me what the Mormons believe about Hell.

Is it simmilar to JW theology?

Oh, wait- what year did you say Mormons started again?

 

[why_me]

You said:

Christology is either biblical, and therefore true; or else it is unbiblical and untrue

Problem with this is:

All so called christians use the bible and differ on christology.

Why do you rely souly on the bible for christology, when you admit you are not bible only?

And you avoided answering if Jesus Is mentioned in the BOM.

Well- is he? What verses, how many? Can you list them?

Not only is Jesus mentioned in the book of mormon but the book of mormon has him visiting the book of mormon people after he acsended into heaven after visiting the apostles. The new testament has a verse to where Jesus mentions that he has to visit his other sheep who are not of this fold. For mormons, they interpret that verse to mean the book of mormon peoples.

The book has Jesus visiting the Americas and teaching the people for a short time.

 

[zerinus]

Zerinus,

Tell me what the Mormons believe about Hell.

Is it simmilar to JW theology?

Oh, wait- what year did you say Mormons started again?

Mormons believe that if you do wrong you will go to hell and if you do right you will go to heaven, just like the Bible says. I don’t know what the JWs believe about hell.

I like to know what relevance that has to what we are talking about though.

zerinus

 

[Montalban]

Are you serious or is that a joke? If you are serious, then take my word for it that I don’t understand you. The first ecumenical council was held in Nicaea in AD 325. The LDS Church was organized in 1830. That is 1500 years later. How could the “Mormons” have been “present” at that council to “object to it”?

I think that’s part of the problem, actually. Your church was invented till many years after Nicea.

Have you got anything against councils held before Nicea?

 

[Montalban]

Mormons believe that if you do wrong you will go to hell and if you do right you will go to heaven, just like the Bible says. I don’t know what the JWs believe about hell.

I like to know what relevance that has to what we are talking about though.

zerinus

Is this the same Bible that was put together by the apostate church?

 

[rmcmullan]

xmydreamsfadex, I know this is a bit difficult from the Catholic POV, it appears that Christ completed His ministry, taught the apostles and then a great church rose, the Catholic church. Christ was the start and the Catholic church was the continuation of His work. Mormons see it somewhat differently.

The Mormon POV was that the church is eternal and that God has always worked with man, starting with Adam down to the current (LDS) apostles. Christ wasn’t sent to start a church but to continue his Father’s work which was always the redemption of man. Although the message has been met with different amounts of enthusiam throughout the ages of man, there have always been people touched by Spirit who do His work. Christ was sent to redeem all mankind, to win the keys of Death and Hades, to take upon himself our sin.

The Book of Mormon has an interesting attitude towards “the church”, it usually refers to it as the body of people who profess faith in the Savior. The “church” has it’s good days and bad days, falls into sin, and needs to be called to repentance from time to time. At other times, it sets a great example for the non-believers. All these things hold without the priesthood authority.

 

[PaulDupre]

Not only is Jesus mentioned in the book of mormon but the book of mormon has him visiting the book of mormon people after he acsended into heaven after visiting the apostles. The new testament has a verse to where Jesus mentions that he has to visit his other sheep who are not of this fold. For mormons, they interpret that verse to mean the book of mormon peoples.

The book has Jesus visiting the Americas and teaching the people for a short time.

No, whyme, in the bible Jesus does not say he has to “visit his other sheep”. That is a gross distortion of what that passage says. Let’s examine it.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. (“the sheep” as always means the children of Israel)

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. (John 10:15-17 KJV)

Nothing here about going for a visit. Jesus is teaching here about his atonement - laying down his life for the sheep. He declares in verse 16 that his atonement will bring into the fold not only the children of Israel, but the “other sheep” as well, meaning the gentiles.

This passage has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon.

Paul

 

[zerinus]

No, whyme, in the bible Jesus does not say he has to “visit his other sheep”. That is a gross distortion of what that passage says. Let’s examine it.

Actually, it does. He says that “other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd” (John 1:16). If He has “other sheep” who are not of the same fold as the “Jews,” and He is going to “bring them in,” then He must visit them somewhere. When He preached a sermon to them in the temple, bearing a similar type of message, the Jews understood Him to mean that He should be “visiting” somebody: “Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles? (John 7:35.)

Nothing here about going for a visit. Jesus is teaching here about his atonement - laying down his life for the sheep. He declares in verse 16 that his atonement will bring into the fold not only the children of Israel, but the “other sheep” as well, meaning the gentiles.

This passage has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon.

Not true. The Gentiles never did “hear His voice,” as the Jews had done. He did not personally minister to them. But the Nephites did hear “His voice,” when He personally visited them ministered to them, and they “heard His voice”. It refers to the Book of Mormon people.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

I think that’s part of the problem, actually. Your church was invented till many years after Nicea.

Have you got anything against councils held before Nicea?

There is only one council held before Nicaea that had ecclesiastical validity, and that is the council of Jerusalem, which was conducted by the Apostles, as recorded in the Book of Acts. All the rest lacked divine sanction.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Is this the same Bible that was put together by the apostate church?

No; it is the Bible that was given to us by revelation from the Lord through His prophets and Apostles.

zerinus

 

[Hellisreal]

Actually, it does. He says that “other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd” (John 1:16). If He has “other sheep” who are not of the same fold as the “Jews,” and He is going to “bring them in,” then He must visit them somewhere. When He preached a sermon to them in the temple, bearing a similar type of message, the Jews understood Him to mean that He should be “visiting” somebody: “Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles? (John 7:35.)

Not true. The Gentiles never did “hear His voice,” as the Jews had done. He did not personally minister to them. But the Nephites did hear “His voice,” when He personally visited them ministered to them, and they “heard His voice”. It refers to the Book of Mormon people.

zerinus

The Gentiles **never **heard his voice?

Really.

 

[Hellisreal]

No; it is the Bible that was given to us by revelation from the Lord through His prophets and Apostles.

zerinus

How did Joseph get it?

 

[zerinus]

How did Joseph get it?

How did he get what?

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

The Gentiles **never **heard his voice?

Really.

No, not personally.

zerinus

 

[Hellisreal]

No; it is the Bible that was given to us by revelation from the Lord through His prophets and Apostles.

zerinus

How did Joseph get a bible? Where did this prophet get his copy from?
Which translation did your prophet choose?

 

[zerinus]

How did Joseph get a bible? Where did this prophet get his copy from?
Which translation did your prophet choose?

Joseph Smith got a copy of the Bible in the same way that you and I did. He made use of one that already existed in the world. However, being a prophet himself, God inspired him to edit and correct, or restore many missing portions in the Bible by revelation. These additions and corrections are found scattered throughout all volumes of LDS scripture; but notably in the Pearl of Great Price, and in the footnotes and appendix to the LDS edition of the KJV Bible.

zerinus

 

[dosdog]

No, not personally.

zerinus

Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks. Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake. Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. Act 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

Apostle Paul The First Roman Catholic
The Apostle Paul -famous rabbi Gamaliel (Acts 22:3). He and his parents were Roman citizens, having special rights and privileges. Roman citizens could not be imprisoned without a trial nor could they be scourged or crucified. His Roman citizenship saved Paul many times during his ministry. He made three great missionary journeys before being arrested in Jerusalem and taken to Rome where he was beheaded in AD 62. allaboutturkey.com/paul.htm