H
Hellisreal
Guest
No, I dont think so.
You have not established him to be a prophet from my bible, or any other I have read.
You have not established him to be a prophet from my bible, or any other I have read.
- Status
Z
zerinus
Guest
That is up to you. I don’t think I have an obligation to “establish him as a prophet from the Bible”. I believe him to be a prophet. If you don’t, you are not obliged to.
zerinus
P
PaulDupre
Guest
The gentiles heard Jesus through his Church, as they do today. The passage simply does not refer to Jesus going to visit anyone. The context of the whole passage is the effect of Jesus laying down his life for the sheep. It never implies Jesus traveling anywhere to visit anyone.
You’ve just been told all your life that this passage means that Jesus must go visit the Nephites, so you are unable to see it any other way.
Paul
P.S.: You still have not answered about why your Church’s current Sunday School manual teaches that God used to be a mortal man and then “became God” when you say your Church does not teach that. What say you?
H
Hellisreal
Guest
Yes, you do have to back this assertation up.
If the bible is all you need to know Christology, surely the bible is all you need to prove your assertation here.
M
majick275
Guest
Jesus personally ministered to gentiles while on earth. It’s in the Bible. read Matthew chapter 8. you remember the centurion? what did Jesus tell him? in Matthew 10 he instructs the Apostles so that they can be witnesses to the gentiles. you can read in acts all about how the Jewish Christians were taught to preach the word to the gentiles. Ananias?
Z
zerinus
Guest
Well, I don’t think that I do. The evidence to Joseph Smith’s prophetic calling is in his revelations, notably the Book of Mormon. You either accept that or you don’t. I don’t think I have an obligation to “prove” anything to you.
zerinus
D
dosdog
Guest
Public revelation is binding on all Christians, but private revelation is binding only on those who receive it. The public revelation was completed, and therefore was concluded, with the death of the last apostle (Vatican II, Dei Verbum 4), but private revelation has continued.
catholic.com/library/private_revelation.asp
"Throughout the ages, there have been so-called ‘private’ revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history.
When the Church approves private revelations, she declares only that there is nothing in them contrary faith or good morals, and that they may be read without danger or even with profit; no obligation is thereby imposed on the faithful to believe them.
Since the Church herself has no providential protection in the area of private revelations, the bishop could be in error. We are not obliged to believe him, or even the Pope himself in such a case.
Laws of Rebels
include nine commandments, three positive commandments and six negative commandments, which are: (1) to act according to the Torah as the Great Rabbinical Court declares it; (2) not to deviate from their words; (3) not to add to the Torah either in the commandments of the Written Law or in the interpretation that we have learned from tradition; (4) not to take away from either of them; (5) not to curse one’s father or mother; (6) not to strike one’s father or mother; (7) to honor one’s father and mother; (8) to fear one’s father and mother; (9) that a son shall not be stubborn and rebellious against the voice of his father and mother
mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/613.htm
Prophetesses -
Prophecy is not restricted to men. There have been many holy women who have attained the level of prophecy, many to an even higher degree than most men. According to at least one source the number of women who reached the level of prophecy is equal to the number of men. Some of the more famous prophetesses are: Sarah, Miriam, Devorah, and Esther. There are many others.
How do we Identify a Prophet?
When HaShem sends a prophet, He gives the prophet a sign to show that he is a true prophet. However, not every person who shows such a sign is automatically accepted. The prophet must be known to be a great, wise, and righteous person. If he is such a person, then we are commanded to accept and obey him if he comes with a sign.
The sign that a prophet must give to prove he is genuine need not be a miracle. He must predict a future event, if his prophecy is fulfilled with perfect accuracy then we believe him, if, however, even the smallest detail is inaccurate then he is a false prophet.
It is always possible that even a person who successfully passes the required tests is not a true prophet
Even if a prophet passes all of these tests if he attempts to contradict the Torah in any way he is automatically shown to be false. This requirement can disqualify any prophet at any time. A prophet may not add or detract from the Torah in any way, this applies to both the Written Torah and the Oral Torah. Therefore, any prophet who claims that a certain mitzvah is no longer required or that a new mitzvah has been added to the Torah shows himself to be a false prophet and is judged accordingly. This is true even if he performs miracles
The Authority of the Prophet
Despite the great stature of the prophets, no matter of Jewish law can be decided by the means of prophecy or any other form of Divine inspiration. When a question of Jewish law is concerned a prophet is no better than any other sage.
members.aol.com/lazera/prophecy.htm
catholic-pages.com/bvm/private_revelations.asp
catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=162
catholicplanet.com/apparitions/discernment.htm
Z
zerinus
Guest
I am afraid it does, your protestations to the contrary notwithstanding. Verse 16 clearly states that He has “other sheep” whom He must “bring into the fold”. That is a completely different proposition from “laying down his life for the sheep”.
Not true.
I have already answered that in my response to another poster.
zerinus
H
Hellisreal
Guest
You dont have to prove anything to me, and last I checked, you have not done so at any point.
This would be the “norm” not the exception.
I cant accept that you can say the bible tells you about Christology, but does not tell you about Joseph Smith.
Its hard to wrap my mind around.
Z
zerinus
Guest
I fail to see your point. I don’t see the connection between the two. Christology has nothing to do with the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith.
zerinus
P
PaulDupre
Guest
Did you even read the passage in context?
H
Hellisreal
Guest
Was Jesus involved in Joseph Smiths calling?
Yes or No will do. With bible citations for backup.
F
ForeverAdam
Guest
I don’t know why you speak so derisively of the LDS belief on the power of the priesthood. You too have keys of authority and spiritual power in the Papacy and sacerdotal priesthood. Regarding St. John and the “Great Apostasy”, you must remember that in LDS belief there is a lot of emphasis on “free agency” - the belief that God allows us to take our own paths either to or from him. So, even if St. John was on the earth, he wouldn’t violate the free will of those around him and force people to be part of the Church. If they wanted to create a new Faith, he would respect their free will and let them. As for the total loss of priesthood authority before the 19th century, I think the LDS Church understands this to mean its use in organizing the Church. It could technically still exist, as in the case of St. John and the Three Nephites, and yet without any adherents to the Faith, it couldn’t exist in the Church.
God bless,
Adam
Z
zerinus
Guest
Yes. Joseph Smith, like every other prophet, was called to that position by God the Father, through His Son Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith’s prophetic calling was extended to him by revelations that he received from God himself, not in the Bible. You seem to be caught in some kind of a “time warp,” to use Star Trek terminology. One minute you are demanding that Mormons should have been present at the Council of Nicaea (1500 years ago!) to accept or reject it; next minute you are expecting that Joseph Smith should have been called to be a prophet in the Bible! I find that absolutely amazing and baffling. Your mind seems to work differently from mine and everybody else’s.Was Jesus involved in Joseph Smiths calling?
Yes or No will do. With bible citations for backup.
zerinus
D
dosdog
Guest
Saint John died A.D. 100 at Ephesus
Public revelation is binding on all Christians, but private revelation is binding only on those who receive it. The public revelation was completed, and therefore was concluded, with the death of the last apostle (Vatican II, Dei Verbum 4), but private revelation has continued.
catholic.com/library/private_revelation.asp
"Throughout the ages, there have been so-called ‘private’ revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history.
When the Church approves private revelations, she declares only that there is nothing in them contrary faith or good morals, and that they may be read without danger or even with profit; no obligation is thereby imposed on the faithful to believe them.
Since the Church herself has no providential protection in the area of private revelations, the bishop could be in error. We are not obliged to believe him, or even the Pope himself in such a case.
Laws of Rebels
include nine commandments, three positive commandments and six negative commandments, which are: (1) to act according to the Torah as the Great Rabbinical Court declares it; (2) not to deviate from their words; (3) not to add to the Torah either in the commandments of the Written Law or in the interpretation that we have learned from tradition; (4) not to take away from either of them; (5) not to curse one’s father or mother; (6) not to strike one’s father or mother; (7) to honor one’s father and mother; (8) to fear one’s father and mother; (9) that a son shall not be stubborn and rebellious against the voice of his father and mother
mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/613.htm
Prophetesses -
Prophecy is not restricted to men. There have been many holy women who have attained the level of prophecy, many to an even higher degree than most men. According to at least one source the number of women who reached the level of prophecy is equal to the number of men. Some of the more famous prophetesses are: Sarah, Miriam, Devorah, and Esther. There are many others.
How do we Identify a Prophet?
When HaShem sends a prophet, He gives the prophet a sign to show that he is a true prophet. However, not every person who shows such a sign is automatically accepted. The prophet must be known to be a great, wise, and righteous person. If he is such a person, then we are commanded to accept and obey him if he comes with a sign.
The sign that a prophet must give to prove he is genuine need not be a miracle. He must predict a future event, if his prophecy is fulfilled with perfect accuracy then we believe him, if, however, even the smallest detail is inaccurate then he is a false prophet.
It is always possible that even a person who successfully passes the required tests is not a true prophet
Even if a prophet passes all of these tests if he attempts to contradict the Torah in any way he is automatically shown to be false. This requirement can disqualify any prophet at any time. A prophet may not add or detract from the Torah in any way, this applies to both the Written Torah and the Oral Torah. Therefore, any prophet who claims that a certain mitzvah is no longer required or that a new mitzvah has been added to the Torah shows himself to be a false prophet and is judged accordingly. This is true even if he performs miracles
The Authority of the Prophet
Despite the great stature of the prophets, no matter of Jewish law can be decided by the means of prophecy or any other form of Divine inspiration. When a question of Jewish law is concerned a prophet is no better than any other sage.
members.aol.com/lazera/prophecy.htm
catholic-pages.com/bvm/pr…evelations.asp
catholicculture.org/docs/…fm?worknum=162
catholicplanet.com/appari…iscernment.htm
Gibve me the
H
Hellisreal
Guest
You think so?
My mind, is not up for discussion here and its AD HOM
Your beliefs are up for debate.
Z
zerinus
Guest
Maybe, but so far you have not produced anything remotely coherent and comprehensible that can be debated. I am still waiting for that.
zerinus
R
rmcmullan
Guest
All that really is saying is that no one else can set the doctrine for the Catholic church. We’re the law and you can all keep your own opinions to yourself. It’s just a politer way of saying it. The Holy Ghost won’t tell one person one thing and another person the opposite, it’s the bearer of truth. Public and private revelation should agree 100%. It’s really just a way of telling people who disagree with the established Catholic doctrine, “that’s your own opinion!, keep it to yourself!”
P
PaulDupre
Guest
So in the Mormon Church, when an individual has a private revelation, he can change church doctrine?
Well of course, that’s how we can tell if a private revelation is false - if it doesn’t agree with previous public revelation.
No, it’s a way of avoiding what’s happened in Mormonism and JWs, where the doctrines change with every generation.
God bless you,
Paul
R
rmcmullan
Guest
Well I know, it’s your way of locking down the doctrine but you’ve might have locked it down too tight. Let’s say there was a lot of very heavy persecution in the early days of Christianity (which you call the Catholic Church). So heavy infact that the entire church leadership, all the apostles and many, many others were martyred. Let’s say during that horrific onslaught that some slight misteaching arose and there was nobody to correct it. You’re stuck with it now. Any deviance from the truth is – well it’s not just private revelation, it’s down right error. Any additional teachings, from either inspired men or from angels–all rejected because they’re private revelation.
- Status