Ummm.. thats not a mass!

  • Thread starter Thread starter youngsaint
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
If I had encountered that, I may have thought something was wrong even if my parents took me.

I know once I was out of town, googled a Catholic Church, got driving directions, showed up at St. Marks. Got a seat and wondered what was going on when a women started to lead things.

I did ask a parishner and it turns out, I was at a Lutheran Church, just up a driveway, from the Catholic Church. But I almost just got up and walked out. I did end up finding the Catholic Church, but I don’t think everything can be so cut and dried when it comes to “recognizing” a legitimately conducted Communion service especially when conducted on a Sunday.

Respectfully,
Maria
I never meant to imply that a stranger to that parish, or someone who didn’t know that Rome had promulgated a rite of celebration of Communion to be used in the absence of a priest, should automatically know these things and be OK with it. Of course not.

I’m thinking more of those who DO know that these things are OK and still huff and puff about it not being legitimate somehow and how they’d never attend one.
 
Get off your arrogant wagon, otjm. It isn’t even a legitimate communion service. where is it promulgated and approved by Rome that a woman dresses up officially in an alb and acts like a priest, reads the gospel, et al? Maybe you dress up as a clown for Mass, perhaps? It sure sounds like it.
It’s been long established by Rome (I believe the relevant provision is in the Code of Canon Law) that ANY layperson may vest in an alb, for any reason or no reason. The alb is NOT restricted to ordained persons but is permitted to all the baptised faithful, so no-one is acting like a priest in wearing one. You’re thinking of the cassock, a different garment altogether.

And the order for Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest certainly allows for whichever person is leading the Celebration - who in the absence of a deacon can legitimately be a layman or lay woman - to read the Gospel of the relevant Sunday.

Certainly a lay leader is not to sit in the presider’s chair, nor to give a homily, nor to recite the Eucharistic prayer, nor to give blessings in the manner of a priest (and there’s no indication that the leader in the OP’s case was ‘acting like a priest’ in any of these forbidden ways). However, the Gospel is an integral part of such services and won’t be omitted should a deacon not be present to read it, but rather read by a layperson.

Remember these Sunday Celebrations are NOT Masses, and not being Masses it poses no problems whatsoever that the Gospel be read by a layperson, any more than any other non-Mass prayer service containing Gospel readings would be problematic if such readings were done by laypeople. It’s not like there was a priest available to read it, nor presumably a deacon either.
 
This morning, I went to a Catholic Church up in the Mountains. Unfortunately, the priest was who-knows-where. It was the only Catholic church in the area, and it only had one priest. I went in and started praying, as is my custom before mass. The alter servers soon came in, followed by the first reader, then by a woman dressed in an alb! When she went up to the alter, she immediately started, with the confession of sins! (I have sinned through my own fault, through my thoughts and my actions…). At this point I was really weirded out, can’t only a priest say that? I patiently sat through it, all the way through the second reading. Then the choir started singing “alleluia”; she went over, kissed the alter, picked up the gospel, and went over podium! At this point I left the church, in total disgust. I then remained outside, praying the rosary for the rest of the “mass”, despite my parents asking me to come back in. It turns out, that they were doing a community gathering or something instead of a mass.

Am I in the clear for missing mass, and did I do the right thing? I’m not quiet sure, but I would do the same had I gone back. 🤷
I can understand your shock,never- the- less perhaps you should have stayed on,the reason being, that you would have found out, if the lay person said the consecration.If she did not and obtained the Concecrated Hosts from the Tabenacle you would have concluded that it was a communion service and not a Mass.You are right,she should not have had a stole on-as they are part of the vestments only used by Priests or Deacons–women love to dress up don’t they!! I wander what was more important–you leaving the communion service or you receiving Our Lord in Holy Communion.–I once went to a similar situation and the religious sister said all the prayers of the congregation–but in this case she was “new age”!! However you cannot answer one way or the other by leaving,though maybe your “sense of the faithful”(sensus fidei) might have been right.A priest friend of mine used to say “the lay people have much to put up with”! Ummmm,a Mass it was not for sure!! You are a good person, please pray that we will have good and holy vocations to the priesthood and the religeous life.
 
“Am I in the clear for missing mass,” --yes you are–God Bless!!
 
You are right,she should not have had a stole on-as they are part of the vestments only used by Priests or Deacons–women love to dress up don’t they!!
And this is a prime example of how rumours start and spread.

The OP never said anything about the woman wearing a stole. He said the woman wore an alb – the garment proper to all baptized people. In fact, in our parish, that’s the garment we present to older children and adults when they are baptized unless they’ve got their own white garment.

Unfortunately, we’ve done such a poor job of explaining to our people just what the alb represents that in many parishes they won’t vest a lay leader in fear of having it misunderstood. I thought that fear was silly but judging by the number of posts that say that the woman was playing priest, I guess I was wrong.
 
Get off your arrogant wagon, otjm. It isn’t even a legitimate communion service. where is it promulgated and approved by Rome that a woman dresses up officially in an alb and acts like a priest, reads the gospel, et al? Maybe you dress up as a clown for Mass, perhaps? It sure sounds like it.
The alb is proper to all the faithful. You also were vested with it at baptism. And for whatever of the more priestly gestures, like kissing the altar, that this woman did, she was not wearing a stole or chasuble.
You are right,she should not have had a stole on-as they are part of the vestments only used by Priests or Deacons–women love to dress up don’t they!
She was not wearing a stole, or at least that was the impression I received from the OP not mentioning it.
 
From what he said, that doesn’t appear to be the case.
But it’s a possibility, isn’t it? Especially when it upsets the worshipper when he sees this kind of service. How can you be properly disposed to receiving Communion when your adrenalin level reaches its all-time high?
 
But it’s a possibility, isn’t it? Especially when it upsets the worshipper when he sees this kind of service. How can you be properly disposed to receiving Communion when your adrenalin level reaches its all-time high?
A feeling isn’t a sin. An act is a sin. And feelings and adrenalin levels are involuntary. The point some of us are trying to make, I think, is this: it seems to have been a legitimate communion service offered in the absence of priest. That is approved by the Church. If we think with the mind of the Church, then such things MIGHT not raise our adrenalin levels.
 
A feeling isn’t a sin. An act is a sin. And feelings and adrenalin levels are involuntary. The point some of us are trying to make, I think, is this: it seems to have been a legitimate communion service offered in the absence of priest. That is approved by the Church. If we think with the mind of the Church, then such things MIGHT not raise our adrenalin levels.
If only it were that easy to control our adrenalin levels when we see these innovations. 🙂

My point was that, legitimate or not, sin or not, if we witness disturbing events or even have a fight with our spouses, our minds can’t be fully attuned to receiving Christ. Maybe better to postpone this communion event for ourselves? The Church has never said we must receive wherever we go and wherever it is offered.
 
I agree…and I certainly do not want to be inflammatory or sound sexist, but women do not belong on or around the Altar…I know it is up to individual Bishops whether or not women/girls can serve on the Altar which in my mind is done just to appease the liberal modernists…THEY WILL NEVER be ordained (it was made clear by Pope John Paul II) and therefore do not belong up there…they shouldn’t be Cantors or Lectors either…Furthermore, I do not believe there should be EMHC’s whatsoever.

The other day, at the very liberal Church I sometimes have to attend, there was a woman wearing a Cassock and an Surplice while serving…I got sick to my stomach and I proceeded to feel even worse when the priest gave the homily…talking about priest getting married, etc…Welcome to the Future!!! Even though it was most egregious, I realize it is still valid and therefore I keep going, but I sure wish things would change around there…I love the priest personally, He has a good heart and he really tries…but he just does a poor job when it comes to the Mass
You did the right thing, these “communion services” (which btw is a Protestant term) are borderline heretical, especially a women leading a group in prayer from the altar! :mad: People will start saying why not make them Priests? Read Chapter two of First Timothy!!

And a woman should never read the Gospel in public.

BTW they don’t count for your Sunday obligation whether you stay or not, one is obligated to attend the Sacrifice not recieve Communion.
 
I agree…and I certainly do not want to be inflammatory or sound sexist, but women do not belong on or around the Altar…I know it is up to individual Bishops whether or not women/girls can serve on the Altar which in my mind is done just to appease the liberal modernists…THEY WILL NEVER be ordained (it was made clear by Pope John Paul II) and therefore do not belong up there…they shouldn’t be Cantors or Lectors either…Furthermore, I do not believe there should be EMHC’s whatsoever.

The other day, at the very liberal Church I sometimes have to attend, there was a woman wearing a Cassock and an Surplice while serving…I got sick to my stomach and I proceeded to feel even worse when the priest gave the homily…talking about priest getting married, etc…Welcome to the Future!!! Even though it was most egregious, I realize it is still valid and therefore I keep going, but I sure wish things would change around there…I love the priest personally, He has a good heart and he really tries…but he just does a poor job when it comes to the Mass
This is an excellent point. Most of my friends attend the Novus Ordo Mass. All of them have boys, but only one has boys willing to serve at Mass. The reason being is that most of them attend Mass where girls serve along side the boys. The boys do not want to serve with the girls therefore, they do not serve at all. As a result, the parishes they attend have mostly girls serving with an occassional boy. The one friend whose boys do serve, only serve because they attend a parish where the priest does not allow girls to serve (one of the few priest in our diocese who does this). Prior to switching to this parish, her boys refused to serve too. I think this plays a large part in the lack of vocations these days. Serving as an altar boy aids in the discernment of a vocation. If boys are not serving, there will naturally be less vocations.
 
I’m thinking more of those who DO know that these things are OK and still huff and puff about it not being legitimate somehow and how they’d never attend one.
Valid, or not, no one need attend one if they do not wish to. Just because Rome may allow the Communion Service, does not mean you have to attend one. I would not attend one. I would rather drive to the next parish that did have a Mass. That may be more difficult to do in some very, very rural areas but in most places it is not. We do live in a rural area, and yet there are a number of Churches one can drive to without much difficulty.
 
This is an excellent point. Most of my friends attend the Novus Ordo Mass. All of them have boys, but only one has boys willing to serve at Mass. The reason being is that most of them attend Mass where girls serve along side the boys. The boys do not want to serve with the girls therefore, they do not serve at all. As a result, the parishes they attend have mostly girls serving with an occassional boy. The one friend whose boys do serve, only serve because they attend a parish where the priest does not allow girls to serve (one of the few priest in our diocese who does this). Prior to switching to this parish, her boys refused to serve too. I think this plays a large part in the lack of vocations these days. Serving as an altar boy aids in the discernment of a vocation. If boys are not serving, there will naturally be less vocations.
Agreed. Many churches have altar guilds or societies which can accomodate women and girls who wish to take an active role.

Anyhow, generally speaking, there’s a local church around here that makes it a practice to have a (habit-less) nun give the homily. Which, to most of the congregation, would have her appear to be a layperson (thus even more cringe-inducing than it would otherwise be).
 
And this is a prime example of how rumours start and spread.

The OP never said anything about the woman wearing a stole. He said the woman wore an alb – the garment proper to all baptized people. In fact, in our parish, that’s the garment we present to older children and adults when they are baptized unless they’ve got their own white garment.

Unfortunately, we’ve done such a poor job of explaining to our people just what the alb represents that in many parishes they won’t vest a lay leader in fear of having it misunderstood. I thought that fear was silly but judging by the number of posts that say that the woman was playing priest, I guess I was wrong.
However, the part about kissing the altar is not supposed to be done. That is clearly wrong.
  1. To promote the proper identity (of various roles) in this area, those abuses which are contrary to the provisions of canon 907 are to be eradicated. In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers – e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology – or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.
Granted, the reverence of the altar by kissing is also done by the deacons, this should not have been done by a layperson, male nor female.
 
There is a lot of discussion here as to whether what the OP observed is OK or not OK. I think we need to separate out the issues. The first is whether or not it is OK to have a “communion service” in the absence of a priest. The second question has some sub-issues: if there is to be a communion service, who can preside and what is the proper form for such a liturgy?

I get the impression from the OP (and I don’t know if this is correct) that this was a situation where there was legitimate cause to hold a Sunday Celebration in the Absence of a Priest. What is not clear is whether or not this woman had the authority to preside at such a celebration. We simply don’t know from the information given. What does seem to be the case is that she did not adhere to all the directives for such a liturgy.
 
You did the right thing, these “communion services” (which btw is a Protestant term) are borderline heretical,
Communion Services, if done according to the ritual books, are not heretical. While they are properly called “Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest” the average person uses “communion service” as slang since its easier to say and convey what’s happening.
especially a women leading a group in prayer from the altar! :mad: People will start saying why not make them Priests? Read Chapter two of First Timothy!!
Chapter II: Conditions for Holding Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest:
30. In the absence of both a priest and a deacon, the pastor is to appoint laypersons, who are to be entrusted with the care of these celebrations, namely, with leading the prayers, with the ministry of the word, and with giving holy communion
Those to be chosen first by the pastor are readers and acolytes who have been duly instituted for the service of the altar and of the word of God. If there are no such instituted ministers available, other laypersons, both men and women, may be appointed…
And a woman should never read the Gospel in public.
Not sure where you get that from. Only priests or deacons can proclaim the Gospel during Mass. However since this is a liturgy that can take place without a priest or deacon it would seem odd that the leader of the assembly (who may be a woman) could not read the Gospel for the day. Even more so since according to the documents (no. 43) the leader may read a homily written by the pastor.

There are a few things wrong with the way the described liturgy happened however a woman leader of the assembly dressed in an alb is not among them.
 
Get off your arrogant wagon, otjm. It isn’t even a legitimate communion service. where is it promulgated and approved by Rome that a woman dresses up officially in an alb and acts like a priest, reads the gospel, et al? Maybe you dress up as a clown for Mass, perhaps? It sure sounds like it.
Arrogant? No, just tired of people who sound off without reading. And tired of people with ample opinions formed out of whole cloth.

If people would even do such a minimum as reading something like the diocesan newspaper or Our Sunday Visitor, most of the objections based on ignorance would resolve themselves. People who expound on what is not permitted when a) it is permitted and b) their expounding is based on their own lack of paying attention to what the Church is doing are not only doing themselves no favor, but can and do create harm to those who listen to them and believe what they are saying.

Get over the clown bit. It has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.
 
But it’s a possibility, isn’t it? Especially when it upsets the worshipper when he sees this kind of service. How can you be properly disposed to receiving Communion when your adrenalin level reaches its all-time high?
It would appear he is a minor (and I may be mistaken, but his reference to his parents would seem to indicate such). He is lucky he is not mine, as I would not have “requested” that he return. I would not cross my child’s conscience had they indicated that they could not receive because of sin. However, no minor of mine would be determining for themselves what was right and what was wrong in a liturgical service because of their opinions.

How is one properly disposed? Take a deep breath or two and get over themself. This is about Christ, not them and their opinions. It seems a natural stage of teenagers to feel that they KNOW. What was the old saw: a freshman knows not, and they know they know not. A sophomore knows not, but they know not that they know not. A junior knows, but they know not that they know. A senior knows, and they know that they know.

Hard to say which one of them is the most insufferable. Having had teenagers, I speak from some experience.

I can have a good deal of compassion, but the appearance is a teenager who didn’t know what was going on, made judgements which did not reflect reality, and appeared to defy their parents request. I can have compassion on the first two issues. The last one crosses the line in the sand.
 
Get off your arrogant wagon, otjm. It isn’t even a legitimate communion service. where is it promulgated and approved by Rome that a woman dresses up officially in an alb and acts like a priest, reads the gospel, et al? Maybe you dress up as a clown for Mass, perhaps? It sure sounds like it.
Speaking of “arrogant wagons,” you might want to check your own vehicle. As has clearly been established by other posters, an alb is the liturgical garb appropriate for all the baptized. I have a copy of the approved ritual for “Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest” in front of me (Liturgical Press 1997). P. 29: Liturgy of the Word: "The gospel is proclaimed by the leader. A layperson omits the greeting “The Lord be with you.’” The rubrics do not limit the role of “leader” to men. The rubrics clearly allow for the role of “leader” to be filled by either a man or woman: P. 21: “The laypersons appointed as leaders should regard the office entrusted to them not so much as an honor but as a responsibility . . .” Also on P. 21: “The leader who is a layperson uses the special forms indicated in the rites . . .” and “The laypeson wears vesture that is suitable for his or her function . . .” And finally, P. 119, under “Gospel:” “#133 A deacon proclaims the gospel in the usual manner. However, a layperson omits the greeting, ‘The Lord be with you,’ before reading the Gospel.”

“Layperson”…“Layperson”…“Layperson.” Do you think there’s a theme here? If your copy of “Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest” reads differently, we’d all like to hear about it. And I think you owe otjm an apology. And your smarmy comment accusing another - accurate - poster about “clown Masses” was really over the line.
 
It is wrong to do something that you are, in good conscience, opposed to. If the original poster felt uncomfortable at one of these “services” then they were not wrong to leave. I have walked out of a Mass celebrated by a Priest where the things going on were too uncomfortable.
Communion Services in the Absence of a Priest aare fully approved and valid, they fulfill the sunday obligation, and thus leaving them would be sinful (although if one is not in knoeldge of this its not because kowing that a sin is such is required for culpability…)Although I would say only a male should do them, but approval has been given for females…🤷

Either way I thank a moderator should put a stop this thread now, because ***this is heretical ***denouncing a practice approved by Holy Mother Church in order to feed Her faithful when priests are in short supply. My family had to attend one in the Grand Canyon(I was not present, instead at a Catholic Boy Scout hiking trek in Philmont, New Mexico with a bunch of priests and two bishops with mass every day…ironic…), because the nearest parish-with-priest was like 100 miles away. They are licit, they are approved and they are most cerrtainly valid. and to denounce them is just as heretical as you may accuse them to be.

Again i move for a shut down of the thread.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top