Ummm.. thats not a mass!

[benedictgal]

Communion Services in the Absence of a Priest aare fully approved and valid, they fulfill the sunday obligation, and thus leaving them would be sinful (although if one is not in knoeldge of this its not because kowing that a sin is such is required for culpability…)Although I would say only a male should do them, but approval has been given for females…

Either way I thank a moderator should put a stop this thread now, because ***this is heretical ***denouncing a practice approved by Holy Mother Church in order to feed Her faithful when priests are in short supply.

First of all, let’s use the term that the Church wants us to use: Sunday Celebrations in the Asbsence of a Priest.

Second, it would, perhaps, do us all well to repeat what Redemptionis Sacramentum has to say about these situations:

1. Particular Celebrations carried out in the Absence of a Priest
   [164.] “If participation at the celebration of the Eucharist is impossible on account of the absence of a sacred minister or for some other grave cause”,269 then it is the Christian people’s right that the diocesan Bishop should provide as far as he is able for some celebration to be held on Sundays for that community under his authority and according to the Church’s norms. Sunday celebrations of this specific kind, however, are to be considered altogether extraordinary. All Deacons or lay members of Christ’s faithful who are assigned a part in such celebrations by the diocesan Bishop should strive “to keep alive in the community a genuine ‘hunger’ for the Eucharist, so that no opportunity for the celebration of Mass will ever be missed, also taking advantage of the occasional presence of a Priest who is not impeded by Church law from celebrating Mass”.270

[165.] **It is necessary to avoid any sort of confusion between this type of gathering and the celebration of theEucharist.271 **The diocesan Bishops, therefore, should prudently discern whether Holy Communion ought to be distributed in these gatherings. The matter would appropriately be determined in view of a more ample co-ordination in the Bishops’ Conference, to be put into effect after the recognitio of the acts by the Apostolic See through the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. It will be preferable, moreover, when both a Priest and a Deacon are absent, that the various parts be distributed among several faithful rather than having a single lay member of the faithful direct the whole celebration alone. Nor is it ever appropriate to refer to any member of the lay faithful as “presiding” over the celebration.

[166.] Likewise, especially if Holy Communion is distributed during such celebrations, the diocesan Bishop, to whose exclusive competence this matter pertains, must not easily grant permission for such celebrations to be held on weekdays, especially in places where it was possible or would be possible to have the celebration of Mass on the preceding or the following Sunday. Priests are therefore earnestly requested to celebrate Mass daily for the people in one of the churches entrusted to their care.

[167.] “Similarly, it is unthinkable on the Lord’s Day to substitute for Holy Mass either ecumenical celebrations of the Word or services of common prayer with Christians from the … Ecclesial Communities, or even participation in these Communities’ liturgical services”.272 Should the diocesan Bishop out of necessity authorize the participation of Catholics for a single occasion, let pastors take care lest confusion arise among the Catholic faithful concerning the necessity of taking part at Mass at another hour of the day even in such circumstances, on account of the obligation.273

Again, here is what Ecclesia de Mysterio says:

Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest

1. In some places in the absence of priests or deacons,(90) non-ordained members of the faithful lead Sunday celebrations. In many instances, much good derives for the local community from this useful and delicate service when it is discharged in accordance with the spirit and the specific norms issued by the competent ecclesiastical authority.(91) A special mandate of the Bishop is necessary for the non-ordained members of the faithful to lead such celebrations. This mandate should contain specific instructions with regard to the term of applicability, the place and conditions in which it is operative, as well as indicate the priest responsible for overseeing these celebrations.

1. It must be clearly understood that such celebrations are temporary solutions and the text used at them must be approved by the competent ecclesiastical authority.(92) The practice of inserting into such celebrations elements proper to the Holy Mass is prohibited. So as to avoid causing error in the minds of the faithful,(93) the use of the eucharistic prayers, even in narrative form, at such celebrations is forbidden. For the same reasons, it should be emphasised for the benefit of those participating, that such celebrations cannot substitute for the eucharistic Sacrifice and that the obligation to attend Mass on Sunday and Holy days is satisfied only by attendance at Holy Mass.(94) In cases where distance or physical conditions are not an obstacle, every effort should be made to encourage and assist the faithful to fulfil this precept.

Thus, they do not fulfull the obligation of assisting at Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation.

 

[scylla]

It seems I was misrepresented and responded to without any logical basis in the responses to my posts, yet I will let that go as that is a couple pages back…

I will reiterate what I said previously, a communion service is not the same or of any comparison to the Mass. You could have all the communion services, rosaries, Bible studies ever done and they do not equal even one valid Mass\Divine Liturgy.
It is very simple, the Sacrifice of Jesus which is offered at the Mass\Divine Liturgy, since they are the same Sacrifice, it is the perfect Sacrifice offered to God. Everything else only has value if united in that one Sacrifice.
I linked the Council of Trent.

Here is a link explaining, good stuff…

Now to say that any other liturgy is just as good is quite wrong and a denial of the Catholic faith. Just because the Church uses a liturgy of the Word, Liturgy of the Hours, etc…These are beautiful things which derive their power from Jesus, who offered Himself up as the Perfect Sacrifice. Prayers, Liturgies all are great, but they are great because of Jesus.

It seems to deny this is to deny the Catholic faith, I am not sure if I was misunderstood earlier, but also if this is incorrect feel free to correct me, but don’t just respond with emotion, please quote from the Catechism\Council or a Pope.

As I said before to say everything else is our distinctive worship means we might as well be Protestants. Hey I can pray the Liturgy of the Hours with the Anglicans.

In Christ
Scylla

(I am not saying that it isn’t a good thing to receive Jesus, but we can offer Jesus better than communion services) If this is the best we can do we are in bad shape.

 

[Magdalena09]

Now to say that any other liturgy is just as good is quite wrong and a denial of the Catholic faith.

Who said that? Please quote the post number.

 

[scylla]

No one said it outright, I might have stated this a bit too harshly , it was just a rejection and a misrepresentation of my statements which are true.

Such as the posts before #46 which or 46 itself. Just because I say that the Mass is the proper way to worship God does not mean that Liturgy of the hours is improper. It just does not accomplish the same effect. It derives it power from the Mass, which is the Sacrifice of Jesus. This is what distinguishes the Catholic faith from all others.

To react in such a way, without clearly stating the truth is what leads people to error. To equate or imply other prayers, liturgy as being equivalent in terms of worship is wrong and denies the importance of the Holy Sacrifice of Jesus at the Mass\Divine Liturgy.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[jmcrae]

It wouldn’t have been a legitimate Mass, and it certainly wasn’t a legitimate “community gathering”, whatever that is supposed to mean!

As someone else suggested - do a bit of reading. This is a proper liturgy for when there is no priest available.

Sounds like it was a time for the lady to play priestess to me.

As a woman in the Church who is often asked to do things by her Pastor, I will tell you one thing for sure - this is the Catholic Church; nobody (not even a man) can just “appoint himself” to a public role - she was asked (or more likely told) to do this by her Pastor (a man) - it is insulting that every time a woman such as myself is asked to do something by our Pastor and we OBEY just as a woman is SUPPOSED TO OBEY we get insulted like this.

If her experience is anything like mine, she was not given an option to say “No,” or to discuss anything - she was just called into the office, she was handed a piece of paper and told, “Here, memorize this, you are leading this service on such a date, at such a time, in this location, got that? 'Bye, I’m leaving now.”

 

[otjm]

As someone else suggested - do a bit of reading. This is a proper liturgy for when there is no priest available.

As a woman in the Church who is often asked to do things by her Pastor, I will tell you one thing for sure - this is the Catholic Church; nobody (not even a man) can just “appoint himself” to a public role - she was asked (or more likely told) to do this by her Pastor (a man) - it is insulting that every time a woman such as myself is asked to do something by our Pastor and we OBEY just as a woman is SUPPOSED TO OBEY we get insulted like this.

If her experience is anything like mine, she was not given an option to say “No,” or to discuss anything - she was just called into the office, she was handed a piece of paper and told, “Here, memorize this, you are leading this service on such a date, at such a time, in this location, got that? 'Bye, I’m leaving now.”

The world is full of mysoginists. It should come as no surprise (but perhaps with a goodly degree of disappointment) that some of them show up in these threads. You have every right to be mad.

And then, there is the old phrase - “Don’t get mad. Get even.”

 

[scylla]

The world is full of mysoginists. It should come as no surprise (but perhaps with a goodly degree of disappointment) that some of them show up in these threads. You have every right to be mad.

And then, there is the old phrase - “Don’t get mad. Get even.”

I would suggest that there is a better phrase… “Turn the other cheek” Matthew 5:39

We are supposed to love those and seek holiness for those who treat us bad. There are some misogynists in the Catholic Church and those are not limited to those who want to control women, but also those who are women who think that women are not good enough if they do not imitate or try to aspire to take the role of a man.

There is a healthy balance of self worth that sees the good in men and women and desires each to serve God, for God’s will, not for selfish desire.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[LoyalViews]

You did the right thing, lad. Good choice, good choice. Looks like that church needs a little bit of… let me all hear you say it now,

O … R … T … H … O … D … O …X … Y!!!

 

[Mattapoisett64]

You did the right thing, lad. Good choice, good choice. Looks like that church needs a little bit of… let me all hear you say it now,

O … R … T … H … O … D … O …X … Y!!!

So, how “orthodox” is it to deny the legitimacy of a ritual explicitly approved and promulgated by competent church authorities? How “orthodox” is it to deny the role of women when such roles have been approved by the Church?

 

[LilyM]

Valid, or not, no one need attend one if they do not wish to. Just because Rome may allow the Communion Service, does not mean you have to attend one. I would not attend one. I would rather drive to the next parish that did have a Mass. That may be more difficult to do in some very, very rural areas but in most places it is not. We do live in a rural area, and yet there are a number of Churches one can drive to without much difficulty.

You’re talking about it in terms of legal (canonical) obligation. What canon law requires is the absolute bare minimum. And I see it in terms of something different entirely, as of course Sunday observance (whether liturgical or not) is indeed a far mre significant matter than canonical requirement.

We’re talking about a chance (in the Communion Service) to gather with our fellow members of the Body of Christ, on the day we are to keep holy. To worship Him, hear His Word proclaimed and adore and/or receive His precious Body and sacred Blood. Unless you could attend a Mass somewhere else to do those things on that Sunday, why on earth would you pass up that chance if you are able to go?

Staying at home and praying privately, while admirable, pales by comparison.

To me it’s like this:

Imagine you’re walking past your best friend’s house.
You see her lights on and a party beginning.
You know full well that your best friend and all your mutual friends are celebrating a highly significant (to her) event at her home.
You know full well that she and the rest would all love to see you. In fact she and others are constantly urging you to visit as often as possible and telling you that her door is open to you all day every day.
You have ample time and opportunity to spend an hour at least with her and with them. No pressing engagements of any kind, no obligations waiting for you at work or at home, nothing whatsoever hindering you from dropping in.

You see and know all that … yet you consciously choose to walk past her house and go on your merry way.

Having done that, how can you claim to have deep feelings for this friend? To love her more than yourself, or even as much as? What does it say about the depth of your feelings for your other friends that you’re snubbing them too?

I must admit it boggles my teeny little mind.

 

[LilyM]

Maybe the OP wasn’t properly disposed for receiving communion and he had said prayers himself instead?

So the gathering with fellow community members for worship aspect of a Communion Service is meaningless then?

The placing yourself in the presence of Our Lord in the Sacrament is meaningless?

In that case why bother attending Mass when we’re not disposed for Communion? And why bother with Eucharistic Adoration - praying in the presence of the Sacrament - when we can’t actually receive and can pray just as well at home?

 

[youngsaint]

Maybe the OP wasn’t properly disposed for receiving communion and he had said prayers himself instead?

I don’t know what “OP” is, but I’m assuming its me.

I wasn’t at the time, but I was going to talk to the “absent” priest,

And I was going to stay the whole mass, but after the whole (see first post), I left.

 

[benedictgal]

So the gathering with fellow community members for worship aspect of a Communion Service is meaningless then?

The placing yourself in the presence of Our Lord in the Sacrament is meaningless?

In that case why bother attending Mass when we’re not disposed for Communion? And why bother with Eucharistic Adoration - praying in the presence of the Sacrament - when we can’t actually receive and can pray just as well at home?

However, we are not obliged to receive Holy Communion every time we assist at Mass. With all due respect, were what you wrote the case, then, it would not have made sense for my late paternal grandma to have assisted at Mass for about 40 years until her annulment came through. This would have heaped additional sin upon sin because, as Catholics, we are obliged to assist at Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, but, we are only obliged to receive Holy Communion once a year, during a time stretching from Ash Wednesday to Trinity Sunday, known as the Easter Duty.

 

[otjm]

I would suggest that there is a better phrase… “Turn the other cheek” Matthew 5:39

We are supposed to love those and seek holiness for those who treat us bad. There are some misogynists in the Catholic Church and those are not limited to those who want to control women, but also those who are women who think that women are not good enough if they do not imitate or try to aspire to take the role of a man.

There is a healthy balance of self worth that sees the good in men and women and desires each to serve God, for God’s will, not for selfish desire.

In Christ
Scylla

I am all for loving those who do wrong. And I am a firm believer that loving them has nothing to do with feelings.

My father sought holiness, and sought to instill holiness, some of which was instilled “behind the woodshed”.

And as far a the roles of man (or for that matter, woman), there is often seemingly as much confusion on one end of the spectrunm as the other. God gives us all talents, and not all in equal shares or necessarily where we would have them given. If we truly seek to do Christ’s will, and to follow the two great commanments, much of what we fuss about (and I include these threads) would either take care of itself, or lose significance.

 

[otjm]

I don’t know what “OP” is, but I’m assuming its me.

It was you. OP means Original Poster.

 

[LilyM]

However, we are not obliged to receive Holy Communion every time we assist at Mass. With all due respect, were what you wrote the case, then, it would not have made sense for my late paternal grandma to have assisted at Mass for about 40 years until her annulment came through. This would have heaped additional sin upon sin because, as Catholics, we are obliged to assist at Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, but, we are only obliged to receive Holy Communion once a year, during a time stretching from Ash Wednesday to Trinity Sunday, known as the Easter Duty.

I never said anyone had to receive Communion if they cannot do so - of course not. Why on earth do you imagine I’d say something like that? You’re utterly misreading me.

What I DID say is that love of Our Lord and His Body, our fellow Catholics, and desire to gather with them in His Eucharistic presence should prompt us to attend a Communion Service on a Sunday if no Mass is available to us. Regardless of whether we receive Communion or not (and I fail to see that ability to receive is an issue, any more than it is with Mass attendance).

‘Do not neglect the habit of meeting together’, as St Paul says.

Apart from Mass, a Communion Service is immeasurably better than anything else we could do of a Sunday, being the closest thing to Mass. It boggles my mind why people who wouldn’t dream of skipping Mass are so utterly blase about something like this that makes more of the same graces available to us than any other activity we could do.

 

[benedictgal]

I never said anyone had to receive Communion if they cannot do so - of course not. Why on earth do you imagine I’d say something like that? You’re utterly misreading me.

What I DID say is that love of Our Lord and His Body, our fellow Catholics, and desire to gather with them in His Eucharistic presence should prompt us to attend a Communion Service on a Sunday if no Mass is available to us. Regardless of whether we receive Communion or not (and I fail to see that ability to receive is an issue, any more than it is with Mass attendance).

‘Do not neglect the habit of meeting together’, as St Paul says.

Apart from Mass, a Communion Service is immeasurably better than anything else we could do of a Sunday, being the closest thing to Mass. It boggles my mind why people who wouldn’t dream of skipping Mass are so utterly blase about something like this that makes more of the same graces available to us than any other activity we could do.

But, St. Paul was not necessarily referring to a SCAP. He was referring to the Mass. An SCAP should be the last recourse. Furthermore, it does not necessarily make more of the same graces available to us because, inasmuch as there may be an opportunity for Holy Communion, these particular gatherings do not carry the same weight as the Mass. The Mass is not about our receiving Holy Communion. The high point of the Mass is the Sacrifice of Calvary, represented in an unbloody manner.

Incidentally, the distributon of Holy Communion does not necessarily have to happen during these gatherings. Remember what Redemptionis Sacramentum says:

165.] It is necessary to avoid any sort of confusion between this type of gathering and the celebration of theEucharist.271 **The diocesan Bishops, therefore, should prudently discern whether Holy Communion ought to be distributed in these gatherings. **The matter would appropriately be determined in view of a more ample co-ordination in the Bishops’ Conference, to be put into effect after the recognitio of the acts by the Apostolic See through the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. It will be preferable, moreover, when both a Priest and a Deacon are absent, that the various parts be distributed among several faithful rather than having a single lay member of the faithful direct the whole celebration alone. Nor is it ever appropriate to refer to any member of the lay faithful as “presiding” over the celebration.

So, even in these cases, there are parameters.

 

[ProVobis]

So the gathering with fellow community members for worshipaspect of a Communion Service is meaningless then?

Obviously not, to some people.

But where’s the spiritual advantage for those who are bothered by it?

And why bother with Eucharistic Adoration - praying in the presence of the Sacrament - when we can’t actually receive and can pray just as well at home?

I’ll agree with you here. Praying in the presence of the Sacrament (or Tabernacle) is preferable to just praying at home. I try to do it daily in a more quiet setting.

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t know what “OP” is, but I’m assuming its me.

I wasn’t at the time, but I was going to talk to the “absent” priest,

And I was going to stay the whole mass, but after the whole (see first post), I left.

“OP” is the CAF acronym for Opening Post.

I agree, it makes a big difference as to whether you’re properly disposed (fast, sinless, mind fully attuned to reception of communion, etc.)

Mass is an entirely different event as it is mandated and you don’t have to communicate. A communion service is, by definition, one where everyone is expected to receive. Or at least there is that implication. That said, as LilyM has pointed out, it might be preferable to pray (alone or with others) in front of the Blessed Sacrament instead of at home.

 

[LilyM]

Obviously not, to some people.

But where’s the spiritual advantage for those who are bothered by it?

By that logic people who are bothered by attending Mass shouldn’t attend it either. People who are bothered by fasting in Lent shouldn’t do so. People who are bothered by fasting for an hour before Communion shouldn’t do it. Such thinking lets us off the hook for everything!

There is always spiritual advantage in a community gathering together for prayer and proclamation of the Word of God. And self-mortification (a spiritual advantage in itself) is all about doing things that might ‘bother us’ but that we know are worthwhile, for the reason that they are pleasing to God or helpful to others.

I’ll agree with you here. Praying in the presence of the Sacrament (or Tabernacle) is preferable to just praying at home. I try to do it daily in a more quiet setting.

Amen - and that’s why gathering in the presence of the Sacrament on a Sunday - even if not for Mass - is the far superior alternative to staying at home and praying.

benedictgal:

Incidentally, the distributon of Holy Communion does not necessarily have to happen during these gatherings.

True, but I’d reiterate that communal gathering for Liturgy of the Word - even without Communion - in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament in their church is by far the best option when the alternative is praying privately!