UN staff killed in Afghan protest over Quran burning in US

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SwizzleStick said:
Your blame is misplaced. Nothing but their own evil choices triggered these fanatical men to sin in such a fashion. While Jones also made a foolish and evil choice to provoke them, those who let rage rule them enough to commit murder are responsible for their own acts. Just because one is provoked does not mean one has to respond. Surely, you don’t mean to suggest that it is reasonable that murder is a justifiable response to burning a book, even if it is sacred text to some? Yes, that response has come to be expected now, but it is not at all reasonable or acceptable.
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I don’t accept the behavior, nor have I claimed this in any previous post, unless you can quote me on it. But to say that the pastor takes no blame at all for those deaths seems shortsighted. In Catholicism, we are all tempted to sin, and we each answer for our own sins. The pastor’s sin is provoking a group to murder. His sins contributed to their deaths. It was not any one specific act, the world isn’t that simple. The deaths of these people was indeed a long process, from:
  1. planning the book burning
  2. creating the publicity
  3. preaching a radical Islamic message used to justify the final action
  4. murder.
At any step before murder, if that step had not occurred then this group would not have been provoked to sin. All the sins that happened in this chain get the blame.
 
The pastor is an idiot and we all agree on that. I think that we should also agree that he has the moral responsibility for trying to anger people.

The press is negligent because it propagated information that would anger people. That has the moral responsibility for enabling anger. However, I never see anyone blaming the press. It looks like that they action of supposedly newsmen is always morally neutral.

The killers murdered innocent people and the are the ones that have the sole responsibility of the murder. Anyone that disagrees with this should be so kind to to explain me in terms of free will. If there is free will only the murderers are morally accountable for the death, or if there is not free will nobody is accountable for the deaths.

I think that people (including myself) have been mixing causes with moral responsibility and that is not always true. I would say that it is rarely true that all the causes of an evil event are associated with a moral responsibility for the specific event.
 
Cristiano said:
Quoting the Bible does not further your case because you do not believe in it. To convince people of your logic you have to be consistent independently of the Bible. Otherwise you do not have credibility.
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I quote the bible because YOU believe in it. I have no better ammunition to change your heart and mind than what you believe.
 
lynx said:
I quote the bible because YOU believe in it. I have no better ammunition to change your heart and mind than what you believe.
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Than you are telling me that you do not believe in the Bible and that you cannot prove in a logical manner that the pastor is morally accountable. That means that you do not have any argument at all. I know what the Church teaches in matter of moral theology and sin and if you want to argue only on the base of Church teachings, first you should show to me that you understand them and that they are reasonable to you.
 
SwizzleStick said:
Your blame is misplaced. Nothing but their own evil choices triggered these fanatical men to sin in such a fashion.
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If Jones is to be held primarily responsible, then Pope BenedictXVI must be held responsible too for the riotous murder violence of the Muslim street that followed in the wake of one of his speeches.

Jones of course was being provacative, and the pope was merely being an intellectual who happened to make an inadvertent comment on the religion of Islam.
Jones then is more comparable to the New York Times and the MSM with their false stories of Korans being flushed down toilets at Gitmo.
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Darryl1958 said:
It is not just an article I have linked, but an entire website I am linking to. Augean Stables gives the point of view that would explain the statement that you quoted from me.
If you sincerely want to begin to have an inkling of what I am talking about, a five minute scan of a single article will not get you anywhere.

For there is not a single source. There are a million. I am not giving you a smoking gun. What I am giving you is a glance at the world view that informs my thoughts.

Once you understand that world view, then which poster here will choose to focus mainly on the guilt of the vile Christian pastors, and poster which will focus on the actions of murderous Islamic thugs becomes almost entirely predictable.

There is a secular leftist worldview, and there is a traditional Christian worldview. For the secular left, the Christian right is regarded as the greater enemy.
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That website does give an interesting world view. I’m not buying your leftist "apologia " of radical islam though. This article didn’t support that view. It did support the view that Islam seeks to further itself at any expense of others. I choose to focus on the Christian pastor because I don’t want this person to get a free pass, or have anyone thinking he didn’t contribute to the deaths of these people. I have never said that these radicals aren’t to blame, only that the pastor is deserving of some of it.

You seem to put a left view as opposing to a Christian view. You seem to want label people and groups as secular, conservative, liberal, left, right, etc. You seem confident in labeling followers of Islam as murderous thugs. This ‘us’ vs ‘them’ labeling in your thinking will always cloud your judgment as to how people actually are, which are slightly more than media stereotypes.
 
lynx said:
That website does give an interesting world view. I’m not buying your leftist "apologia " of radical islam though. This article didn’t support that view. It did support the view that Islam seeks to further itself at any expense of others. I choose to focus on the Christian pastor because I don’t want this person to get a free pass, or have anyone thinking he didn’t contribute to the deaths of these people. I have never said that these radicals aren’t to blame, only that the pastor is deserving of some of it.

You seem to put a left view as opposing to a Christian view. You seem to want label people and groups as secular, conservative, liberal, left, right, etc. You seem confident in labeling followers of Islam as murderous thugs. This ‘us’ vs ‘them’ labeling in your thinking will always cloud your judgment as to how people actually are, which are slightly more than media stereotypes.
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Like the rest of us you had sufficient information to think that the pastor would burn the Koran. What did you do to stop the pastor? Nothing? Then you are as morally accountable a the pastor for the death of those innocent beings.
 
Cristiano said:
Than you are telling me that you do not believe in the Bible and that you cannot prove in a logical manner that the pastor is morally accountable. That means that you do not have any argument at all. I know what the Church teaches in matter of moral theology and sin and if you want to argue only on the base of Church teachings, first you should show to me that you understand them and that they are reasonable to you.
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Whether or not I can prove it logically, which I already have (feel free to re-read this thread from the beginning), doesn’t matter to I can prove it to you biblically. As a Catholic you’re obligated to follow the teachings in the bible. If not, by your own moral standards you’re wrong. There is no better tool to change your mind than your own beliefs. Whether or not the bible means anything to me is irrelevant, what matters is that it means something to you.
 
Darryl1958 said:
If Jones is to be held primarily responsible, then Pope BenedictXVI must be held responsible too for the riotous murder violence of the Muslim street that followed in the wake of one of his speeches.

Jones of course was being provacative, and the pope was merely being an intellectual who happened to make an inadvertent comment on the religion of Islam. …
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It is clear to me that Jones is responsible for provocation and those who murdered are responsible for murder. Simple.
Darryl1958 said:
…Jones then is more comparable to the New York Times and the MSM with their false stories of Korans being flushed down toilets at Gitmo.
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Seems apt to me.
 
Cristiano said:
Like the rest of us you had sufficient information to think that the pastor would burn the Koran. What did you do to stop the pastor? Nothing? Then you are as morally accountable a the pastor for the death of those innocent beings.
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I didn’t know the pastor held a book burning until it was too late? What should I have done? Committed a sin against the preacher and hold him against his will just in case? This argument is weak sauce.
 
Darryl1958 said:
If Jones is to be held primarily responsible, then Pope BenedictXVI must be held responsible too for the riotous murder violence of the Muslim street that followed in the wake of one of his speeches.

Jones of course was being provacative, and the pope was merely being an intellectual who happened to make an inadvertent comment on the religion of Islam.
Jones then is more comparable to the New York Times and the MSM with their false stories of Korans being flushed down toilets at Gitmo.
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Jones was sinning. The Pope was not. The sins of Jones contributed to the murders of those people. This is not a fair comparison. Also, comparing the real actions of Jones to a lie about gitmo is another unfair comparison.
 
lynx said:
…Also, comparing the real actions of Jones to a lie about gitmo is another unfair comparison.
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Both were unnecessary, provocative and inflammatory. Neither should have happened.
 
SwizzleStick said:
Incorrect. Both actions resulted in murder.
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Perhaps I should clarify what I meant just in case I miscommunicated. The actual burning of the Koran and the made-up story of the flushing of the Koran at Gitmo–both unnecessary, provocative and inflammatory–resulted in murder of innocents by fanatics.

The situation with the Pope was totally different. The Pope just happened to make an inadvertent comment about Islam and the result was again murder of innocents by fanatics.
 
lynx said:
The Koran down the toilet incident that didn’t happen is a sin? Explain.
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Sin? I didn’t use that word, but I guess it was a sin because it was a lie that caused the death of innocents.

The Koran burning story at Gitmo was false. It prompted murderous violence. The Jones Koran burning story was true. It too prompted murderous violence.

Two different situations. Both unnecessary, provocative, inflammatory. Same result by fanatics.
 
SwizzleStick said:
Perhaps I should clarify what I meant just in case I miscommunicated. The actual burning of the Koran and the made-up story of the flushing of the Koran at Gitmo–both unnecessary, provocative and inflammatory–resulted in murder of innocents by fanatics.

The situation with the Pope was totally different. The Pope just happened to make an inadvertent comment about Islam and the result was again murder of innocents by fanatics.
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Alright, out of the three things we know of that have caused violent islamic action
  1. Pope speech
  2. gitmo lie
  3. Pastor burning koran
Only one of these is a sin. Would you agree?
 
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