UN staff killed in Afghan protest over Quran burning in US

[Rich_Olszewski]

Why not, there are plenty of people who deify Lincoln. Good Lord they build a temple for him in DC where you can go and offer up your worship.

You’re quite right. I have personally seen people kneeling before that statue of Lincoln and praying. Can’t say that they were praying to him, but…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You’re quite right. I have personally seen people kneeling before that statue of Lincoln and praying. Can’t say that they were praying to him, but…

This argument reminds me of the accusations of many Protestants directed towards Catholics…

 

[Darryl1958]

Did you even read the rest of my post?

Look, you’re smart enough to get the difference between someone being angry as a side effect versus being intentionally provoked. The muslim extremists may not see the difference, but as a rationally thinking Christian you should. You’re obviously choosing to simply ignore that to prove your point. Nobody is arguing that the extremists will still be violent. I’m again suggesting that we shouldn’t do things to intentionally provoke them by insulting their faith… again viewing it as we (as Christians) should and not as “well this is what they would do so this is what we should do”.

In other words me going to mass may offend them, that’s not my fault. But I’m not going to get a copy of the book they deem as sacred and burn it or otherwise disrespect it. Frankly, I’m a better person than that and while I don’t agree with their beliefs I can respect the fact that they hold them as sacred as I do mine.

I don’t expect you to answer this as I’ve brought up the point repeatedly now but just answer to yourself… what WOULD Jesus do? Prior to my decision to convert I used to regard WWJD as some stupid acronym that stupid Christians used on stupid bumper stickers and those annoying little rubber bracelets to shove their faith in my face. I’ve learned better… I now realize that it’s a very simple way to remind us of the way we should view everything. I apologize if it sounds as if I’m questioning your faith… but it seems that you may have forgotten this.

Any reasonable person would agree that the actions of this pastor were disrespectful, and not the kind of thing that we might normally expect of Christ. It is not rocket science either to realize that this pastor is closer to the halls of your local loonie bin than to the halls of power in America or the world. His actions were disrepectful, but not illegal. Under sharia law of course they would be illegal too.
Inciting violence as a means to curtail his disrepectful speech that happened continents away is stealth jihad. It is deliberate and it is disproportionate. It follows the form that the ayatollahs initiated with their hit on Rushdie. It has the same ends as efforts by the Islamic bloc of the UN to define blasphemy as illegal—or now hate speech!

Therein lies the real problem. It is not disrepectful speech that is the target. It is respectful criticism( eg. Hirsi Ali, Salmon Rushdie) that is the target too.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

You’re quite right. I have personally seen people kneeling before that statue of Lincoln and praying. Can’t say that they were praying to him, but…

I live in this God-forsaken area. I see it all the time. They go to the Jefferson Memorial and give appropriate respect, but they go to the Lincoln one and cry, pray, kneel. Its idol worship at its best (or worst )

 

[SamH]

You didn’t… I said that we should treat it as we (as Christians) should, i.e. not burn the quran or hold a mock trial regarding their prophet. You implied that simply “being Christian” would be the same thing as burning the quran by provoking them.

I implied nothing, I clearly stated an observation - one you admit you can’t refute. Take it at face value instead of trying to turn it into something you can take position against.

 

[GraceDK]

Did you even read the rest of my post?

Look, you’re smart enough to get the difference between someone being angry as a side effect versus being intentionally provoked. The muslim extremists may not see the difference, but as a rationally thinking Christian you should. You’re obviously choosing to simply ignore that to prove your point. Nobody is arguing that the extremists will still be violent. I’m again suggesting that we shouldn’t do things to intentionally provoke them by insulting their faith… again viewing it as we (as Christians) should and not as “well this is what they would do so this is what we should do”.

In other words me going to mass may offend them, that’s not my fault. But I’m not going to get a copy of the book they deem as sacred and burn it or otherwise disrespect it. Frankly, I’m a better person than that and while I don’t agree with their beliefs I can respect the fact that they hold them as sacred as I do mine.

I don’t expect you to answer this as I’ve brought up the point repeatedly now but just answer to yourself… what WOULD Jesus do? .

The question is, what DID Jesus do? He said quite clearly: there will come false prophets and they will lead many astray.
Without doubt, one of these false prohpets was muhammad.

Jesus said He was the Messiah and Son of God and He said that the pharisees were blind leaders and they were like graves. His clarity and honesty got Him crucified.
That’s what Jesus would do.

You go to mass, indeed, and you will be passively provoking islam thereby… but will you also take the active stand that our faith demands, namely to say that Islam is a false revelation, that it doesn’t save, and that Muhammad was a false prophet who should be known by the fruits (his actions of violence and impurity).

JP2 stood up against communism, exposing the godlessness of it. Will we face this ISM with the same determination and courage?

In a way I feel that the Pastor made this statement, in a way he said; to the fire with the false revelation!
You are right that his method was neither prudent nor wise, however, let us be clear that when we condemn one man’s method we can’t stop at that. It needs to be said clearly all over the world that Islam is false and it is creates a false anthropology which doesn’t lead to happiness neither in this life nor the in the next.
And Christians in the free world are most suitable for that job.

 

[mdrummer5]

Any reasonable person would agree that the actions of this pastor were disrespectful, and not the kind of thing that we might normally expect of Christ. It is not rocket science either to realize that this pastor is closer to the halls of your local loonie bin than to the halls of power in America or the world. His actions were disrepectful, but not illegal.

I see your point. However whether or not it’s “illegal” is a matter of who’s law we’re considering. You’re referring to US law of course in which case it’s not illegal.

But for those that defend his actions stating it’s his first amendment right I’m curious, do you not think it would violate God’s laws?

I implied nothing, I clearly stated an observation - one you admit you can’t refute. Take it at face value instead of trying to turn it into something you can take position against.

I said we shouldn’t burn the quran. You pointed out that simply practicing Christianity would be a provocation. You were talking about the reaction and I was talking about the intent behind the initial act causing it. Maybe I misunderstood. Do you agree then that we shouldn’t burn the quran? If so then I apologize for my misunderstanding.

Please keep in mind I’m not saying we shouldn’t do it out of fear as some have implied. I’m saying we shouldn’t do it because it’s an un-Christian thing to do. Do you not agree?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I live in this God-forsaken area. I see it all the time. They go to the Jefferson Memorial and give appropriate respect, but they go to the Lincoln one and cry, pray, kneel. Its idol worship at its best (or worst )

Did you observe anything in common with the majority of people crying, praying and kneeling? How could you tell they were ‘worshiping’?

How you do feel when you see a Catholic kneeling and praying in front of a statue?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Did you observe anything in common with the majority of people crying, praying and kneeling? How could you tell they were ‘worshiping’?

How you do feel when you see a Catholic kneeling and praying in front of a statue?

Depends on who the statue is of. If it is Mary, then they are venerating her, in accordance with the doctrine of the Church. If it is of Jesus, the latria (worship) passes through the statue and directly to God. As far as I know, Abraham Lincoln is not a canonized saint in the Catholic Church. Although there are some people I know who think he should be.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Depends on who the statue is of. If it is Mary, then they are venerating her, in accordance with the doctrine of the Church. If it is of Jesus, the latria (worship) passes through the statue and directly to God. As far as I know, Abraham Lincoln is not a canonized saint in the Catholic Church. Although there are some people I know who think he should be.

How can you tell people are ‘worshiping’ Lincoln?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

How can you tell people are ‘worshiping’ Lincoln?

dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperbole

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperbole

Thanks for the definition, but it appears you are avoiding the question. I had also asked a couple other questions it seems you overlooked.

Do these people, you see, have anything in common, that you can tell by looking at them?

How can YOU tell these people are ‘worshiping’ Lincoln? It’s the same type question asked of many Protestants who use the same type response you give to say Catholics are worshiping Mary. Worshiping comes from within and God can only see within each of us. Or am I to take it you are over exaggerating? If so, why would you do this?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Thanks for the definition, but it appears you are avoiding the question. I had also asked a couple other questions it seems you overlooked.

Do these people, you see, have anything in common, that you can tell by looking at them?

How can YOU tell these people are ‘worshiping’ Lincoln? It’s the same type question asked of many Protestants who use the same type response you give to say Catholics are worshiping Mary. Worshiping comes from within and God can only see within each of us. Or am I to take it you are over exaggerating? If so, why would you do this?

I gave you the definition of hyperbole, now I will use it in a sentence.

Scott_Lafrance’s use of hyperbole to illustrate the over-glorification of Abraham Lincoln was truely inspiring. I wish I could be more like him.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Scott_Lafrance’s use of hyperbole to illustrate the over-glorification of Abraham Lincoln was truely inspiring. I wish I could be more like him.

What is truly inspiring however is his boundless humility.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I gave you the definition of hyperbole, now I will use it in a sentence.

Scott_Lafrance’s use of hyperbole to illustrate the over-glorification of Abraham Lincoln was truely inspiring. I wish I could be more like him.

Well, I’ll admit it was an extreme over exaggeration. Why did you feel it necessary to use such an over exaggeration? Why do you feel that Abraham Lincoln is being ‘over-glorified’?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Well, I’ll admit it was an extreme over exaggeration. Why did you feel it necessary to use such an over exaggeration? Why do you feel that Abraham Lincoln is being ‘over-glorified’?

Oh, I know for a fact that many in historical academia glorify Lincoln to the point of what can only be perceived as worship. I feel it necessary because that is my rhetorical style.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Oh, I know for a fact that many in historical academia glorify Lincoln to the point of what can only be perceived as worship. I feel it necessary because that is my rhetorical style.

Strange, ‘perceived’ being used, by a Catholic, in a similar fashion that Protestants use in arguments against Catholicism.

Care to use your ‘rhetorical style to answer my other question? I’ve asked twice. Did you notice anything those people, that you ‘perceived’ as worshiping Lincoln’, had in common?

 

[LtTony]

The Koran, as observed by the example of Muhammed, does command it. If you want to find out what the truth of a religious text is, observe the founder of the faith. Muhammed was, among other things, a violent man who spread his new faith by the sword. Christ did no such thing, in fact, peacefully offering himself up to be executed without resisting.

Did God not do the same thing with the Jews in the OT? Yes I realize the NT changed things but it’s interesting how quickly people forget about our faiths violent history when observing another’s…

No, actually God didn’t do the same thing with the Jews. It is often seen that way by some, however, and I can understand why. In the course of one of those discussions, I looked into it. A lot different situation, a one-time situation and in a time long ago.

Well, how exactly did the Jews get rid of the Canaanites? Peaceful persuasion?

The Canaanites are typical the situation people refer to when they bring up “The Bible is full of violence for God” claim.
While “peaceful persuasion” was actually attempted, it essentailly came down to genocide. God told the Jews to wipe out every last one of them. I didn’t say otherwise.
I admit that I found this disturbing, so I pursued it. I’d encourage you to do the same.

It does not prove one of the points brought up: God orders his followers to kill non-believers; that Mohammad and OT prophets operated in the same manner in this regard.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Strange, ‘perceived’ being used, by a Catholic, in a similar fashion that Protestants use in arguments against Catholicism.

Care to use your ‘rhetorical style to answer my other question? I’ve asked twice. Did you notice anything those people, that you ‘perceived’ as worshiping Lincoln’, had in common?

Well, I can flat out answer a Protestant’s criticism of Catholic “Mary and Saint” worship in 3 minutes flat, with scritpural and catechismal references and everything, even including the aberration that some people actually do worship saints and Mary.

With regard to the similarities of the people whom I perceive to be “worshipping” Lincoln? Other than their apparent emotional state and physical activity? No.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Well, I can flat out answer a Protestant’s criticism of Catholic “Mary and Saint” worship in 3 minutes flat, with scritpural and catechismal references and everything, even including the aberration that some people actually do worship saints and Mary.

With regard to the similarities of the people whom I perceive to be “worshipping” Lincoln? Other than their apparent emotional state and physical activity? No.

It would be interesting to see your answer to a Protestant’s criticism and if any of it might apply to those who ‘appear’ to be worshiping Lincoln in your perception.