Unam Sanctam... authoritative?

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In all due respect, I think you are interpretting this in a very broad sense. If you would have posted the next paragraph you will see how important it is for us, as Catholics, to bring those outside the Church that are in error, back to the ONE true fold so they will “gain eternal salvation”:
  1. God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith and love. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation.** First of all, let them rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have unhappily fallen and strive to guide them back to Catholic truth and **to their most loving Mother who is ever holding out her maternal arms to receive them lovingly back into her fold. Thus, firmly founded in faith, hope, and charity and fruitful in every good work, they will gain eternal salvation.
If you look at what you highlighted, you will note that they have “unhappily fallen” and that we should strive to “guide them back to Catholic truth” – exactly what I said. This pertains to those who, having been Catholic, have rejected the truth.

Thanks for supporting what I said, even though you thought you were disagreeing with me.

Deacon Ed
 
The Bull Unam Sanctam was a political document.

Boniface VIII was seeking to subordinate France politically, and threatening hell upon king Philip as a big club to whack him with. That is the context of the document.

After the death of Boniface it was largely forgotten for hundreds of years, to be resurrected by Ultramontanists of the 19th century arguing for Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope.
*
Michael*
 
And we should count your view as authoritative?

I love it. Some documents are trotted out as virtual additions to the Commandments…others are mere “political documents” that ended up supporting DOCTRINE that certain Easterners just can’t accept.
 
It is authoritive.

There is no salvation outside of the Church. And every human creature MUST be subject to the authority of the Roman Pontiff.

Its funny how clear, simple, straightforward decrees of past Popes are debated on these forums, but the ambiguous, suspicious and confusing documents of VII are implemented like the Dogma to end all Dogmas in debates…:confused:
Could you please define “the Church?” Thanks.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday
 
And we should count your view as authoritative?
You don’t have to, do your own research.

There is far too much mythologizing in these threads. People like yourself are just trying too hard. Educate yourself, you owe it to yourself to learn about the church.

Michael
 
For it is only through Christ’s Catholic Church, which is “the
all-embracing means of salvation,” that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the
head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God.

DECREE ON ECUMENISM – VII

a lot more foggy
 
Could you please define “the Church?” Thanks.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday
The Church are baptized christians who are in a state of grace (free from mortal sin) in full communion with Rome, and under the Supreme Pontiff.

Those saved outside of the Church must still be…baptized Christians (baptized by desire or blood counts) free from mortal sin, and either extremely ignorant or sincerely seeking the truth.

Considering that Mortal Sin DOES exist in Protestant Churches…for example it is a grave sin to steal something…and a Protestant who steals something with full consent and knowledge HAS commited a mortal sin wether or not he is familiar with the Catholic stance on Mortal and Venial Sins.

Like I said, considering that, salvation outside of the Church is nigh impossible. Unless you die a martyr’s death (in which case all sins are forgiven through baptism of blood) or you are below the age of reason (in which case you cannot mortally sin anyway)

Finally…assuming you do somehow manage to never mortally sin after Baptism in a Protestant Church. You must have substantial faith and supporting works to even be justified.

With all of that in mind…there really is very little hope for those outside of the Catholic Church.

And even less hope for those who are non-Christian in general.

Instead of seeing it as a judgemental Doctrine…see it as the greatest encouragement the Church could ever give us to evangelize.

Mother Church labors for the salvation of souls!
 
The Church are baptized christians who are in a state of grace (free from mortal sin) in full communion with Rome, and under the Supreme Pontiff.
One need not be free from mortal sin to still be a member of the Church.

From Mystici Corporis Christi:
  1. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. “For in one spirit” says the Apostle, “were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free.” [17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. [18] And therefore if a man refuse to hear the Church let him be considered – so the Lord commands – as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.
23. Nor must one imagine that the Body of the Church, just because it bears the name of Christ, is made up during the days of its earthly pilgrimage only of members conspicuous for their holiness, or that it consists only of those whom God has predestined to eternal happiness. it is owing to the Savior’s infinite mercy that place is allowed in His Mystical Body here below for those whom, of old, He did not exclude from the banquet. [20] For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy. Men may lose charity and divine grace through sin, thus becoming incapable of supernatural merit, and yet not be deprived of all life if they hold fast to faith and Christian hope, and if, illumined from above, they are spurred on by the interior promptings of the Holy Spirit to salutary fear and are moved to prayer and penance for their sins.
24. Let every one then abhor sin, which defiles the mystical members of our Redeemer; but if anyone unhappily falls and his obstinacy has not made him unworthy of communion with the faithful, let him be received with great love, and let eager charity see in him a weak member of Jesus Christ. For, as the Bishop of Hippo remarks, it is better “to be cured within the Church’s community than to be cut off from its body as incurable members.” [21] “As long as a member still forms part of the body there is no reason to despair of its cure; once it has been cut off, it can be neither cured nor healed.” [22]
 
One need not be free from mortal sin to still be a member of the Church.

From Mystici Corporis Christi:
Okay. Your right, those in mortal sin are members of the Church. But they are dead members and cannot be saved.

From the Catechism of His All Holiness St. Pius X.

24 Q: To be saved, is it enough to be any sort of member of the Catholic Church?
A: No, to be saved it is not enough to be any sort of member of the Catholic Church; it is necessary to be a living member.

25 Q: Who are the living members of the Church?
A: The living members of the Church are the just, and the just alone, that is, those who are actually in the grace of God.

26 Q: And who are the dead members?
A: The dead members of the Church are the faithful in mortal sin.

27 Q: Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?
A: No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.
 
…there really is very little hope for those outside of the Catholic Church.

And even less hope for those who are non-Christian in general.

Instead of seeing it as a judgemental Doctrine…see it as the greatest encouragement the Church could ever give us to evangelize.

Mother Church labors for the salvation of souls!
Somehow, while reading this I cannot get the thought of Matthew 23:13 out of my head. Very eerie.

Michael
 
Somehow, while reading this I cannot get the thought of Matthew 23:13 out of my head. Very eerie.

Michael
Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for ye shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for ye do not enter, nor do ye suffer those that are entering to go in.

Yes…woe to St. Pius X…that hypocrite…that pharisee.

Its sad that a Pope can be called such things for simply believing in what His Church teaches.

And then somone else called the same…for simply believing what that aforementioned Holy Man taught us…
 
Missa Solemnis:
It’s sad that a Pope can be called such things for simply believing in what His Church teaches.
No, actually, what is sad is a Catholic who believes the following in spite of what the Church actually teaches:
Missa Solemnis:
With all of that in mind…there really is very little hope for those outside of the Catholic Church.
John
 
No, actually, what is sad is a Catholic who believes the following in spite of what the Church actually teaches:

John
And what does the Church actually teach?

I have stated three things.
  1. That only members of the Church who are in a state of grace go to Heaven.
  2. That those outside of the Church who are spared out of ignorance must also be in a state of grace in order to be saved.
  3. That there are very few people who can fit into the second category.
And these are contrary to what the Church teaches?

Its a very Protestant thing…to take a doctrine and massage meaning into the text. Rather than reading it as it stands.
 
How 'bout a quote from something written in our lifetime?

CCC said:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
Missa Solemnis:
And these are contrary to what the Church teaches?
How 'bout this? Seems to me you made the “very few” up. I can’t find it anywhere.
Missa Solemnis:
  1. That there are very few people who can fit into the second category.
John
 
How 'bout a quote from something written in our lifetime?

How 'bout this? Seems to me you made the “very few” up. I can’t find it anywhere.

John
Our lifetime is not something im proud of.

And furthermore…whats good for St. Pius X is good for me.

The quotes from the catechism above is nothing but theological complications.

A Catechism is not infallible…it is a tool for teaching the faith. Dogma is infallible…and Dogma is clear on this matter.

St. Pius X’s catechism was used to teach children. Its a simple question and answer format.

Become a child and ask our Holy Father Pius X

“Is there salvation outside of the Church”

And be content with His answer.
 
Missa Solemnis:
St. Pius X’s catechism was used to teach children. Its a simple question and answer format.

Become a child and ask our Holy Father Pius X

“Is there salvation outside of the Church”

And be content with His answer.
Why should I? A famous person once said:
Missa Solemnis:
A Catechism is not infallible…
John
 
Why should I? A famous person once said:

John
Yes, well thank you for your sarcasm.

Im not going to get into a childish debate about which Catechism is better…Pius X or the new one.

But doesnt it say something about whats happening in the Church if every single Catechism, from Trent, to the Baltimore, to St. Pius X states that there is no salvation outside of the Church except for rare circumstances…and then this new Catechism suddenly changes all of that?

Ill leave it to you. But in my little Catholic sphere…Dogma is binding.

I must be one of those radicals…
 
Our lifetime is not something im proud of.

And furthermore…whats good for St. Pius X is good for me.

The quotes from the catechism above is nothing but theological complications.

A Catechism is not infallible…it is a tool for teaching the faith. Dogma is infallible…and Dogma is clear on this matter.

St. Pius X’s catechism was used to teach children. Its a simple question and answer format.

Become a child and ask our Holy Father Pius X

“Is there salvation outside of the Church”

And be content with His answer.
Don’t let your miter get too tight, young one. The passage John quoted from the Catechism is founded on papal teaching. I’ve read similar quotes from the hand of Blessed Pius IX and Pius XII, of happy memory.

And while we’re becoming children, asking the Holy Father (last I checked, Benedict the XVI is currently our Holy Father), and being content with “his” answer (capital letters at the beginning of a pronoun are usually only accorded the Deity), we might want to check this, by a rather obscure cardinal of the Church: beliefnet.com/story/209/story_20936_1.html

And salvation is indeed rare…even for Catholics. “Narrow is the way and few are they that find it.”
 
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