Unam Sanctam - Protestants and Orthodox not going to be saved as Protestants and Orthodox Christians?

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BenjaminDaVinci

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I’m not entirely sure where to place this, but given that it’s a historical quote, I figured that it should go under ‘Traditional Catholicism’.

“Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”-Unam Sanctam.

As you can see, this is clear. So the question is this: how is it that Roman Catholics can claim that Christians outside of the Roman Catholic communion can be saved and yet Unam Sanctam rejects this, saying that it’s absolutely necessary for salvation to be in communion with the Pope? Today of course, we often hear of Roman Catholics referring to the Orthodox and the Protestants as “separated brethren”.
 
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It is likely to take far more background in theology than most people in these forums have.

As a point, it is a bit risky to make a universal statement about a papal statement without considering the context in which it is made.

Likewise, it is a bit risky to take a statement out of the context of the subsequent 718 years of the Church’s theological reflection on the substance at hand.
 
God is capable of putting them into whatever communion they need a split second before their death if their minds and hearts are so disposed.
 
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Objectively speaking, these people won’t be saved because they belong to false religions (Incomplete and/or wrong doctrines and unable to sanctify).

Subjectively speaking, miracles could happen and some of their members could be saved. Notice it isn’t their religion that is going to help them be saved. Instead, it is a special grace given by God that allows them to live according to Catholicism (natural and divine laws).
 
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To be subject to the Pope, is generally understood to be a member of the Catholic Church. Outside of which, there is no salvation. There are numerous theories and speculations as to why Pope Boniface VIII wrote this papal bull during his time. Even if there was an ulterior motive, it wouldn’t invalidate the teaching.

After the Protestant reformation, the goal was to reinforce this truth and combat the error that salvation can be found outside the Catholic Church, which is incorrect.

The Protestants who exists today, may not have the same mentality as those immediately following the reformation. This is why, as individuals, God could save them because of their sincere belief in Jesus Christ as the second person of the Holy Trinity.

This understanding doesn’t mean that salvation exists outside of the Church; it’s merely the Church acknowledging that God, may save our Protestant brethren in ways known only to Him.

The problem is that too many Catholics want to focus on this understanding and view it as the Church’s way of saying there are other paths to Heaven. This type of belief seriously undermines the necessity of Jesus and His Catholic Church.
 
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May I offer some hypothetical responses to this just by way of interaction? As someone who is close to Orthodoxy, I feel that would be beneficial just in case I’m missing out on something.
 
You can keep your heaven, then. I’ll go be with St. Paisios and St. Seraphim in hell.
 
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It’s helpful here to consider that being a card carrying member of the Catholic Church does not guarantee your salvation.
And this: God is not bound by the sacraments.
 
Crusader13 said:
To be subject to the Pope, is generally understood to be a member of the Catholic Church. Outside of which, there is no salvation .
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The problem with this, as far as I can tell, is that Unam Sanctam isn’t just saying that to be a subject to the Pope is to be a member of the Catholic Church. It’s also saying that to be a member of the Catholic Church, one must be subject to the Pope.

You also seem to be saying, similar to another comment here, that on an objective level, there’s no salvation outside of the Church, but on a subjective level, there may very well be people who are saved outside of that communion with the Pope. This would strike me as just a little bit contradictory, since if there can be subjective salvation of those outside of communion with the Pope, then it’s just false to say that there’s no objective salvation outside of the Church. By “outside of the Church” here, i mean outside of communion with the Bishop of Rome.

At the end of the day, I can see what you’re trying to say, but I think that this method of looking at history can only work for the Orthodox Catholic Church.
 
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BenjaminDaVinci said:
So the question is this: how is it that Roman Catholics can claim that Christians outside of the Roman Catholic communion can be saved and yet Unam Sanctam rejects this, saying that it’s absolutely necessary for salvation to be in communion with the Pope?
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Proper interpretation of Magisterial teachings is important.

Pope Boniface VIII does not specify that this necessary subjection is exclusively explicit as you seem to imply. Explicit subjection (becoming a formal member of the Catholic Church, being registered at a parish, etc.) is normally necessary, but in the case of the invincibly ignorant, implicit subjection to the Roman Pontiff suffices.

Someone who is a member of these communities who is invincibly ignorant, following the moral law, and is following God to the best his knowledge is implicitly subject to the Roman Pontiff, since he is united to the soul of the Church.
 
Didn’t Pope Boniface VIII end up dead after being kidnapped by French Mercs and being imprisoned for meddling in internal affairs of the French state? And didn’t immediately thereafter the whole Great Western Schism happen where Popes ruled from Avignon in France and then the whole disaster where the Church ended up with 3 reigning Popes during a period of some 60 plus years?

For the definitive interpretation, for now at least, on that dogma, look into the CCC and Pope Saint John Paul the Great’s letter Dominus Iesus

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
 
ioannes_pius said:
Someone who is a member of these communities who is invincibly ignorant, following the moral law, and is following God to the best his knowledge is implicitly subject to the Roman Pontiff, since he is united to the soul of the Church.
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Could you tell me what you mean by “implicit subjection”? In light of Unam Sanctam and historical context, I take “subjection” to mean something like control - control of all peoples specifically, both spiritual and temporal. It’s clear that Protestants and Orthodox Christians aren’t subject to the Bishop of Rome in this sense.
 
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BenjaminDaVinci said:
It’s also saying that to be a member of the Catholic Church, one must be subject to the Pope.
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This is the traditional understanding of what being a member of the Catholic Church entails. In order to get around this understanding, many Protestants chose to view the catholic (Universal) Church, not as the Roman Catholic Church, but as the Church of all believers in Jesus Christ.
BenjaminDaVinci said:
You also seem to be saying, similar to another comment here, that on an objective level , there’s no salvation outside of the Church, but on a subjective level , there may very well be people who are saved outside of that communion with the Pope.
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Correct. However, Jesus Christ is the source of this Salvation. Meaning, subjectively, if a non-Catholic were to be saved, it’s not because of their ignorance or because of their religion.

The subjective understanding of Salvation outside of the Church, isn’t a catch-all way to justify a person’s refusal to enter the Church or even their refusal to believe in Jesus Christ.

This is usually the incorrect application of invincible ignorance. When people start trying to objectively and subjectively apply invincible ignorance to a religion or even to an individual, this leads to many of the errors we see today. Because we are never told how or what criteria one has to meet in order to claim invincible ignorance.

Invincible ignorance isn’t some minimum standard one needs to enter Heaven. Thought it often times is used in that manner.
 
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BenjaminDaVinci said:
I’m not entirely sure where to place this, but given that it’s a historical quote, I figured that it should go under ‘Traditional Catholicism’.

“Furthermore, we declare , we proclaim , we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff .”-Unam Sanctam.

As you can see, this is clear. So the question is this: how is it that Roman Catholics can claim that Christians outside of the Roman Catholic communion can be saved and yet Unam Sanctam rejects this, saying that it’s absolutely necessary for salvation to be in communion with the Pope? Today of course, we often hear of Roman Catholics referring to the Orthodox and the Protestants as “separated brethren”.
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From the catechism:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches , this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324
 
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For with truth as our witness, it belongs to spiritual power to establish the terrestrial power and to pass judgement if it has not been good.
Boniface VIII. Unam Sanctam.
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Context is everything.

The Reformation started 200 years after Unam Sanctam was published, so Protestants are not directly addressed by the Bull. “The Greeks” are mentioned, presumably the Orthodox, and presumably are part of the object of this statement.

And then, in the quote above, we see the main concern is with the “temporal sword” or terrestrial power.
Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered for the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest.
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I suppose there are some who object to the Church’s terrestrial power, but for the most part, the Church no longer has power over other nations. The real point is that this is about temporal power, not heavenly grace.

I do not know what this means. No plan can exist that is not subject to having its right shining. It is the best part of what remains.
 
Those who belong to the Church are subject to the Roman Pontiff.

The invincibly ignorant of good will belong to the Church by virtue of the fact that they are united to the soul of the Church. We could say they are implicit members of the Church.

Ergo, they are subject to the Roman Pontiff, at least implicitly.
 
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