Unbelievers and Hell

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QuietKarlos

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So do all unbelievers go to hell? I came across this bible verse:

8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

There is Vatican 2 which says that they dont but Vatican 2 is obviously very controversial.

I don’t want to think that they do but isn’t the Bible saying that they do?
 
QuietKarlos said:
So do all unbelievers go to hell? I came across this bible verse:

8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

There is Vatican 2 which says that they dont but Vatican 2 is obviously very controversial.

I don’t want to think that they do but isn’t the Bible saying that they do?
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There is more in the complete section. He that shall overcome receives the reward. One that is not established in charity at the end of their earthly life, is not going to see the face of God.

Revelation 21
5 And he that sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new. And he said to me: Write. For these words are most faithful and true. 6 And he said to me: It is done. I am Alpha and Omega: the Beginning and the End. To him that thirsteth, I will give of the fountain of the water of life, freely. 7 He that shall overcome shall possess these things. And I will be his God: and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful and unbelieving and the abominable and murderers and whoremongers and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
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Vico said:
There is more in the complete section. He that shall overcome receives the reward. One that is not established in charity at the end of their earthly life, is not going to see the face of God.

Revelation 21
5 And he that sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new. And he said to me: Write. For these words are most faithful and true. 6 And he said to me: It is done. I am Alpha and Omega: the Beginning and the End. To him that thirsteth, I will give of the fountain of the water of life, freely. 7 He that shall overcome shall possess these things. And I will be his God: and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful and unbelieving and the abominable and murderers and whoremongers and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
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I don’t get how this context changes anything? I don’t understand your point
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Quiet, faith is a gift.

Some search for it all their lives and never find it. Many brilliant people - Carl Sagan comes to mind - just never find it.

What happens to them? We just don’t know. But I am hopeful that God has a place in his kingdom for all those who search for Him, even if they don’t know they’re searching. If you watch something like Sagan’s original Cosmos series (not the hatchet job Neil DeGrasse Tyson did in the reboot), IMHO you can’t help but be impressed by Sagan’s sheer wonder at the universe - which to me is almost a nascent kind of faith. Do I think God finds a place in Heaven for (unbeliever) Carl Sagan? I sure hope so…and I rather think so, too.
 
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VonDerTann said:
What happens to them? We just don’t know.
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That is true. Having said that, St Augustine, among others, was pessimistic about unbelievers. He said that for God to neglect those who do not seek Him is but justice.
 
Dying in a state of mortal sin will consign a person to hell for eternity by their own choice. Nobody knows who dies in mortal sin.

Prayers for the dead and for the living are a spiritual work of mercy and if we neglect this work we will be accountable for it.

Peace.
 
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Christ said ‘when you clothed the naked and fed the hungry, you did it to me’. When we extend mercy, it is extended to us. ‘The measure you measure with will be measured to you.’ ‘Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.’ Perhaps they have indeed forgiven everyone. This is why we say we don’t know.
 
Those here condemned as unbelievers are those who willfully reject faith. Purely negative unbelief is not a sin.
 
QuietKarlos said:
I don’t want to think that they do but isn’t the Bible saying that they do?
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Kind of… God doesn’t want anyone to go to hell either so He gives everyone a chance to know Him in nature, the heart of men, the actions of His children… we are all given an opportunity to know God.

But it is like @VonDerTann, says we really don’t know. We are not God, we will never know what is in a person’s heart or mind when they die… only God knows if a person was truly an unbeliever.

I pray we are all chosen to be welcomed into the Kingdom by God.
 
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1 John 5

5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Elsewhere, St. Paul writes: "Unbelievers cannot know God, because they have not love, so they cannot know God, who is love."

**So, this special type of love is characterized by keeping Jesus’ commandments. It requires knowledge of Jesus and his commandments, and a submissive, willing spirit that desires to live in obedience to them. This fills us with a spiritual and emotional love of God and Jesus, as our lives are spiritually enriched and blessed. Eventually, this love becomes almost a palpable substance in our lives (a foreknowledge of our heavenly home).

A priest pointed out to me that if people do not have this love, they cannot go to heaven, because heaven, too, is an eternal state of this Godly love.

Many unbelievers consciously outright reject Christ and his commandments, and they make this choice repeatedly. Sadly, they end up without the necessary type of Godly love to go to heaven. Some are so constituted prefer rebellion to submission and unruliness over obedience to Christ’s commandments.

This is a tragic effect of repeatedly exercising their free will in rejection of and disobedience to God and Jesus’ commandments.
 
The scriptures are pretty clear. John 3:36 says “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him”. When an unbeliever dies, they go to Hell.
 
QuietKarlos said:
So do all unbelievers go to hell?
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Well it’s true that we don’t know the fate of every individual who dies without a belief in Jesus Christ. Some people like to believe that every non-believer who openly rejects Jesus, can still be saved through invincible ignorance.

The truth is we don’t know who that applies to and it’s something that we shouldn’t even be focused on. Our goal is to ensure that the good news of Salvation is preached to all the nations, so nobody is left in ignorance.

There is no salvation outside of the covenant with God. Scripture is 100% clear on this matter and to to ensure that everyone understands this point, Jesus repeatedly states what we need to do in order to be part of the new covenant and to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
 
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Unbelievers do go to Hell. No Salvation for the Ignorant because they are guilty for other sins.

Pope Pelagius I - Ex Cathedra: - I confess that the Lord will give over by a very just judgment to the punishment of eternal and inextinguishable fire the wicked who either did not know by way of the Lord or, knowing it, left it when seized by various transgressions, in order that they may burn without end.

St. Augustine: “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.”

St. Augustine: “Consequently both those who have not heard the gospel and those who, having heard it, and having been changed for the better, did not receive perseverance… none of these are separated from that lump which is known to be damned, as all are going… into condemnation.”
St. Bede the Venerable: “Just as all within the ark were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who are found outside.”

St. Thomas Aquinas: “There is no entering into salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church.”

Saint Peter Canisius: “Outside of this communion – as outside of the ark of Noah – there is absolutely no salvation for mortals: not for Jews or pagans who never received the faith of the Church, nor for heretics who, having received it, corrupted it; neither for the excommunicated or those who for any other serious cause deserve to be put away and separated from the body of the Church like pernicious members…for the rule of Cyprian and Augustine is certain: he will not have God for his Father who would not have the Church for his mother.”

Saint Robert Bellarmine: “Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol [Apostles Creed] we join together the Church with the remission of sins: `I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins’…For this reason the Church is compared with the ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church.”

St. Louis Maria de Montfort: “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes.”

St. John Bosco: “If you die as an unbeliever, you will be damned and lost forever.”

St. Irenaeus of Lyons: God will condemn all those who are outside the truth, that is, outside the Church.

St. Augustine: The Church is the gate of Paradise, opened by Christ on Easter Day, through which believers alone may pass.

St. Jerome: Everyone who is saved is saved in the Church.
 
Here’s more:

St. Augustine: If a man departs this life without the faith, in vain do his friends have recourse to acts of kindness such as prayer for him.

St Thomas Aquinas: The saints do not pray for unbelievers and wicked men, knowing them to be already condemned to eternal punishment.

Pope Pelagius II: “We can no more pray for a deceased infidel than we can for the devil, since they are condemned to the same eternal and irrevocable damnation.”

The Dialogues attributed to Pope Gregory the Great pronounced that there was no room in the Christian Heaven for the pagan ancestor.

Pope Gregory the Great: Saintly men on earth do not pray for deceased infidels and godless people.
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Session 8, Ex Cathedra:

Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.

Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 8, Ex Cathedra:

But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons;…

Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 3, Ex Cathedra:

But although Christ died for all, yet not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His Passion is communicated.

Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 7, Ex Cathedra:

For though no one can be just except he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet this takes place in that justification of the sinner, when by the merit of the most holy passion, the charity of God is poured forth by the Holy Ghost in the hearts of those who are justified and inheres in them; whence man through Jesus Christ, in whom he is engrafted, receives in that justification, together with the remission of sins, all these infused at the same time, namely, faith, hope and charity.
For faith, unless hope and charity be added to it, neither unites man perfectly with Christ nor makes him a living member of His body.
For which reason it is most truly said that faith without works is dead and of no profit, and in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avail anything nor uncircumcision, but faith that works by charity.

Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, “Iniunctum nobis,” Nov. 13, 1565, Ex Cathedra:

This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…

Pope Pius VIII: It will be especially fitting to remember this firm dogma of our religion: that outside the true Catholic faith no one can be saved.

Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, Ex cathedra:

This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…
 
St Thomas Aquinas

“If we consider unbelief as we find it in those who have heard nothing about the faith, it bears the character of punishment, not of sin, because such ignorance is the result of the sin of our first parents. When such unbelievers are damned, it is on account of other sins, which cannot be taken away without faith, not because of their sin of unbelief.” (Summa Theologica, IIa IIae, q.10, a.1)

And, consequently, both those who have not heard the gospel, and those who, having heard it and been changed by it for the better, have not received perseverance, and those who, having heard the gospel, have refused to come to Christ, that is, to believe on Him - since He Himself says, ‘No man cometh unto me, except it were given him of my Father,’ - and those who by their tender age were unable to believe, but might be absolved from original sin by the sole laver of regeneration, and yet have not received this laver, and have perished in death: are not made to differ from that lump which it is plain is condemned, as all go from one into condemnation. Some are made to differ, however, not by their own merits, but by the grace of the Mediator; that is to say, they are justified freely in the blood of the second Adam." (Saint Augustine, On Correction and Grace, 11-12)

Pope Paul III, Council of Trent

Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Session. 6, Chapter. 3, ex cathedra: “But although Christ died for all, yet not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His Passion is communicated.”
 
Also, if you are interested in understanding more about what constitutes sins against faith, Fr Callan and Fr McHugh in their work “Moral Theology” discuss these at no. 812 and onwards:
  1. The sins against faith can all be reduced to four heads: (a) sins of unbelief (see 813-886), which are opposed to the internal act of faith; (b) sins of blasphemy (see 887-903), which are opposed to the external act of faith; (c) sins of ignorance (see 904-911), which are opposed to the Gift of Knowledge; (d) sins of blindness and dullness (912), which are opposed to the Gift of Understanding.
Obviously, they are referring to people who are not “invincibly ignorant” in their discussions of these sins. The work has the nihil obstat and imprimatur and is available for free here:

 
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QuietKarlos said:
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I don’t get how this context changes anything? I don’t understand your point
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1 John 5
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
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The occurrence is after the Great White Throne Judgment. Revelation 21 verse 7 contrasts those that overcome with those that do not – all the rest are grouped together in verse 8 (which could include more ways of not overcoming). Note that this pertains to New Heaven and New Earth – the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:2).
 
I think it is more human justice than divine justice. In other words, Gd is superior to our idea of justice in that divine justice is more merciful.
 
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