Unbelievers and Hell

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TominAdelaide said:
Also, if you are interested in understanding more about what constitutes sins against faith, Fr Callan and Fr McHugh in their work “Moral Theology” discuss these at no. 812 and onwards:
  1. The sins against faith can all be reduced to four heads: (a) sins of unbelief (see 813-886), which are opposed to the internal act of faith; (b) sins of blasphemy (see 887-903), which are opposed to the external act of faith; © sins of ignorance (see 904-911), which are opposed to the Gift of Knowledge; (d) sins of blindness and dullness (912), which are opposed to the Gift of Understanding.
Obviously, they are referring to people who are not “invincibly ignorant” in their discussions of these sins. The work has the nihil obstat and imprimatur and is available for free here:

Project Gutenberg

Moral Theology by Charles J. Callan and John A. McHugh ​

Free kindle book and epub digitized and proofread by Project Gutenberg.
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I wish I could download this book into my brain with a Firewire or something, but seeing as I am not a cyborg, that’s not possible. Just skimming over it, the book looks like Jone on steroids.

There is an alternative called “reading”.

(I did download it in both HTML and Kindle formats.)

ETA: I did some more skimming and I found this gem:

581. The authority of conscience is not, however, unlimited.

(a) Conscience is not independent of external law and authority. It is not autonomous morality of the reason or will, nor private inspiration or interpretation; for its function is not to establish law or pass judgment on it, but to apply the law as expounded by the Church to a present case. Hence, conscience must aim to be true—that is, to agree with and express the objective law.

Feeling much love for this book right now 💗 💗 💗
 
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Dan_Defender said:
He said that for God to neglect those who do not seek Him is but justice.
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Then one has to ask, what does “seek Him” mean?

Clearly there are large numbers of peoples who have never been exposed to the faith, so how is Perfect Justice (because God is not capable of imperfect justice - that is an oxymoron) done by requiring something for which one has not had the opportunity?
 
There is such a thing as invincible ignorance yes. But there’s also lots of people only interested in this world and in themselves. That’s just where their heart is. I think St Augustine was speaking about them.
 
Pattylt said:
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Oh, it’s absolutely different. All the things believers believe about Heaven and Hell are through revelation. There is no material evidence for any of it. The supernatural realm is inaccessible to science so science has nothing to say about it. …
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Science cannot demonstrate that there is no supernatural interaction, since it cannot explain how the basic forces of nature work exactly nor where they originate; rather full of theories.

As in Hebrews 11
1 Now, faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not. 2 For by this the ancients obtained a testimony.
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Judgment Day will reveal all. There is nothing that is concealed that will not be revealed.
 
Vico said:
Science cannot demonstrate that there is no supernatural interaction, since it cannot explain how the basic forces of nature work exactly nor where they originate; rather full of theories.
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Even within the natural world, there are many things they cannot explain. Dark matter and dark energy for one. How the world went from no life to life is another.
 
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QuietKarlos said:
But the cowardly, the unbelieving , the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur . This is the second death.
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This could be described as part of: “inventing a disease (you’re all eternally doomed) and announcing yourself as the only cure.”
 
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Hello poster Vox_Catholica, those are some pretty intense quotes!
One thing that I like to is remember the context and the potential biases of the Saint writing. For example both St. Augustine and St. Thomas were upper class and in their religious life had an academic/scholarly orientation. Thus it is not too surprising that their cosmic understanding was also one in which most people are far worse off than they; but that’s just the way it’s supposed to be, and success in one’s afterlife career strongly hinges on adhering to the correct opinion/argument, and protecting all theoretical nuances of this argument is essential!

It comforts me to contrast this with the way our Lord spoke about salvation, one moment comforting, another frightening, one time stressing faith, another works of charity, and another suggesting we can escape judgement altogether through forgiveness. One moment the path is a narrow gate, another it’s an easy yoke, and it’s never all tied up for us!

I understand that the more precise writings of the Saints (and later popespeak) may be comforting to some Catholics, but for me the lack of “clarity” in how Christ spoke more comfortably fits how I experience the world (uncertain, full of surprise, beyond the grasp of my orderly notions).
 
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Jupp said:
You cannot “define” something into existence. Show us the evidence for hell.
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You koow by now, or you should, that I don’t show “evidence” for faith-based matters.
And, having provided an explanation, I’m not interested in arguing about it. Perhaps others will do that, I find it a largely useless exercise.
Have a nice day!
 
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TominAdelaide said:
40.png
HomeschoolDad:
Just skimming over it, the book looks like Jone on steroids.
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Yes, I was blown away by this work too when I first discovered it! I have found it to be very insightful but also at the same time very practical to the real world too! Fr Callan and Fr McHugh were recognised as distinguished scholars within the Order of Preachers:

dominicanajournal.org

dominicanav16n2veryreverendjohnamchughop.pdf ​

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That article is beautiful. When I saw the “1931” on it, a huge smile broke out on my face and still hasn’t left yet.

Any likelihood they could make this an appendix to the Catechism?

One can only dream…
 
Dan_Defender said:
There is such a thing as invincible ignorance yes. But there’s also lots of people only interested in this world and in themselves.
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I don;'t deny either issue.

And one can look to the streets in certain areas and confirm the latter.
 
Jupp said:
I still cannot visualize anyone banging on the door of hell, and demand admittance, no matter what kind of specific “ETERNAL torture” exists there.
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Then you should have met some of my criminal clients.

God does not “throw” anyone; to begin with, Hell is a state of being, not a “place”. And most definitely they do choose, whether or not they could articulate that choice.

You, along with many, many people have never experienced pure hatred. And for that you are blessed; but that does not mean that pure hatred does not exist.

The torture of hell is not a physical torture; it is the torture one subjects oneself to when one is caught up in hate, whatever form it takes.

quidquid recipitur ad modum recipientis recipitur
 
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