Unbelievers and Hell

[Genesis315]

So do all unbelievers go to hell? I came across this bible verse:

8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving , the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur . This is the second death.”

There is Vatican 2 which says that they dont but Vatican 2 is obviously very controversial.

I don’t want to think that they do but isn’t the Bible saying that they do?

Yes, those who persevere to the end in unbelief cannot be saved. Faith in Jesus is absolutely necessary for salvation. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The necessity of faith

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43

However, since God desires all men to be saved, He offers all the possibility of obtaining the means of salvation. For unbelievers seeking the truth with an upright conscience, He will lead them to this necessary faith.

From the same Catechism:

848…in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him…

 

[Tis_Bearself]

So do all unbelievers go to hell?

We don’t know who does and doesn’t go to hell.
We can have hope of souls of unbelievers going to heaven, and we can pray for them.

I came across this bible verse:

Catholics don’t pick out bible verses and interpret them ourselves.

 

[Pattylt]

I have no problem with Christians believing that I’m going to hell. I’ve certainly been told it often enough!

 

[annad347]

I have no problem with Christians believing that I’m going to hell. I’ve certainly been told it often enough!

I’m one Christian who would NEVER say or believe you are going to hell… nice to meet you.

God Bless.

 

[Pattylt]

I agree…I was a bit too blunt. Many Christians have told me they don’t know what my status will be. Unfortunately, I’ve had many more encounters that were certain of my destination.

I just wanted you to know that I’m not bothered by whatever you believe my final status will be. As Christians, you know that hell exists whether you know who goes or not. As a Jew and as an agnostic, hell doesn’t exist.

 

[kapp19]

Hebrews chapter 1 and 11 are the places to start looking… no, someone without faith cannot please God, nor be His friend… you can’t love what you don’t know.

 

[whatistrue]

In fact, I do not see how a loving God can in anyway be reconciled with the concept of Hell or Purgatory.
Therefore Hell cannot exist as a physical or spiritual place.

Just because you cannot reconcile it does not mean that it cannot be reconciled. So Hell can indeed exist notwithstanding your opinion.

 

[QuietKarlos]

I do not believe a loving God would send to Hell those who use their faculties to question God’s existence.
In fact, I do not see how a loving God can in anyway be reconciled with the concept of Hell or Purgatory.
Therefore Hell cannot exist as a physical or spiritual place.

I can understand questioning the idea of hell, but Purgatory?

There has to be some form of punishment or else I can do something bad to someone else, say for example I hit them, and I end up the better in that situation because there is no punishment system and only the person who gets punched will fell pain.

The idea of hell I’ve thought of a lot and it troubles me. Some points I can make are:

Life would have a lot less meaning without an eternal hell. If we would be only temporarily punished for our sins then it wouldn’t matter because eventually we’d get to a point where we have no punishment.

People are in a state of mortal sin when they are in hell. So in theory if they lived infinitely they would sin infinitely, making their punishment infinite.

Trent Horn, a very good apologist, speculated maybe people sin in hell and they are the ones that make it last infinite.

Do I think all unbelievers go to hell?
Well I certainly don’t think people who haven’t heard the gospel will ALL go to hell.

As for people who have heard the Gospel and aren’t Christian, I just don’t know. Maybe at the end of their life God gives them a last chance that we don’t know about, like I think Saint Sister Faustina wrote in her diary.
But I hold out hope that it’s possible some unbelievers could somehow maybe make it to Heaven.

 

[kapp19]

How do you reconcile the existence of Heaven with a just God?

He gives freedom to all, and He does not compel friendship by violence… else it would not be friendship at all.

Look at the teaching of Christ… there is a Hell. But there is glory available for those who are willing to carry the Cross, no?

 

[TominAdelaide]

Maybe at the end of their life God gives them a last chance that we don’t know about, like I think Saint Sister Faustina wrote in her diary.

Yes, this is from St Faustina’s “Diary” at no. 1486:

Conversation of the Merciful God with a Despairing Soul.

Jesus: O soul steeped in darkness, do not despair. All is not yet lost. Come and confide in your God, who is love and mercy.

— But the soul, deaf even to this appeal, wraps itself in darkness.

Jesus calls out again: My child, listen to the voice of your merciful Father.

— In the soul arises this reply: “For me there is no mercy,” and it falls into greater darkness, a despair which is a foretaste of hell and makes it unable to draw near to God.

Jesus calls to the soul a third time, but the soul remains deaf and blind, hardened and despairing. Then the mercy of God begins to exert itself, and, without any cooperation from the soul, God grants it final grace. If this too is spurned, God will leave the soul in this self-chosen disposition for eternity. This grace emerges from the merciful Heart of Jesus and gives the soul a special light by means of which the soul begins to understand God’s effort; but conversion depends on its own will. The soul knows that this, for her, is final grace and, should it show even a flicker of good will, the mercy of God will accomplish the rest.

My omnipotent mercy is active here. Happy the soul that takes advantage of this grace.

A similar scenario is described in “The Dialogue of St Catherine of Siena” at the chapter called “Of the death of sinners, and of their pains in the hour of death”:

Despair is that sin which is pardoned neither here nor hereafter, and it is because despair displeases Me so much that I wish them to hope in My mercy at the point of death, even if their life has been disordered and wicked.

At death when the soul begins to see its woes, and the just man his beatitude, his evil life is represented to a wicked man, and there is no reason that any one should remind him of the sins that he has committed, for his conscience places them before him, together with the virtues which he ought to have practiced. … and I wish thee to know that in this knowledge which dying sinners have of virtue and vice they see only too clearly the good which follows the virtue of a just man, and the pain that comes on him who has lain in the darkness of mortal sin. I do not give him this knowledge so that he may despair, but so that he may come to a perfect self-knowledge and shame for his sins, with hope, so that with that pain and knowledge he may pay for his sins, and appease My anger, humbly begging My mercy.

 

[whatistrue]

How do you reconcile

Is an absence of justice loving? True love is willing the good of the other. Is it good for someone to think that it doesn’t matter what they do, that there will never be any final consequences to their choices? Please note that this is simply an off the cuff musing rather than a fully thought out argument, but even then I think it shows one possible basis among many for a complete reconciliation. And what is the problem with Purgatory? That is a stage on the journey rather than an eternal punishment, which I can understand someone not liking.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

How do you reconcile the existence of Hell or Purgatory with a loving God?

1. People put themselves in Hell. God will give them as many chances as possible to avoid it before it’s finally too late. God does not like or want to send people to Hell.
2. We do not know what goes on in Purgatory. Views on whether it is a pleasant or unpleasant place vary widely among theologians and approved private revelations.

Purgatory is pleasant in that those who are there know they are saved and won’t go to Hell.
It is unpleasant in that those souls are not yet enjoying the beatific vision of God in Heaven and naturally want to get there ASAP.
We do not know if it involves punishment or pain other than that.

At least one Doctor of the Church has taught that purgatory is meant to be a “back door” into Heaven for those who wouldn’t get there otherwise (So in that sense it is loving as it saves more souls), and that it is possible for most people to bypass Purgatory. There are writings by other saints and by clergy with Nihil Obstat/ Imprimatur saying the same. It is also generally believed that a person may serve their purgatory while still on earth based on the trials and pain of life.

Many Catholics reject these teachings and just assume everyone who somehow manages to get saved will sit in Purgatory a long time unless they are a canonized saint or similar. It’s wrong thinking IMHO but it’s like talking to the wall for even Doctors of the Church and Papal proclamations on Divine Mercy to try to change their minds.

 

[Vico]

I agree…I was a bit too blunt. Many Christians have told me they don’t know what my status will be. Unfortunately, I’ve had many more encounters that were certain of my destination.

I just wanted you to know that I’m not bothered by whatever you believe my final status will be. As Christians, you know that hell exists whether you know who goes or not. As a Jew and as an agnostic, hell doesn’t exist.

Does heaven exist?

 

[neophyte]

Therefore Hell cannot exist as a physical or spiritual place.

Hell cannot exist because you don’t see how it can? That’s a bit arrogant.

 

[Pattylt]

Does heaven exist?

No.

It’s a wonderful idea but I believe that all evidence that we have scientifically shows that “I” am my brain and my brain is “me”. I have no problem in accepting that I end when I die. The only existence I will have after death is the memories of me by my family and friends and after a few generations, even that will be lost…unless I do something absolutely famous before I die…not too likely!

I also think the idea of “eternity” is unfathomable…what would that mean? I sure hope there isn’t the experience of time as I can not imagine experiencing time and it goes on and on…for ever. While humans have had ideas about an afterlife of various sorts, none are really well thought out and of course, no one really knows.

 

[littlered123]

I don’t think so. There are plenty of good people who are unbelievers, they may or may not have been exposed to Christianity. Honestly, I have known people who are unbelievers who seem more worthy of heaven than I or other believers because they seem more virtuous and loving towards others. I doubt any good God would punish them for thinking differently and not coming to the same conclusions as believers

 

[Tis_Bearself]

They reject God. They think they don’t need him. Hell is eternal separation from God - that’s how it’s defined. Beyond that we don’t know if it’s fire, ice, torture, or just sitting in a room feeling lousy.

It’s not odd to think people might reject God when we see people vehemently daily rejecting God, including sometimes in angry posts on this forum. If you spend your time on earth rejecting God then you are unlikely to suddenly change your mind at the hour of death.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Does heaven exist?

No.

It’s a wonderful idea but I believe that all evidence that we have scientifically shows that “I” am my brain and my brain is “me”. I have no problem in accepting that I end when I die. The only existence I will have after death is the memories of me by my family and friends and after a few generations, even that will be lost…unless I do something absolutely famous before I die…not too likely!

I also think the idea of “eternity” is unfathomable…what would that mean? I sure hope there isn’t the experience of time as I can not imagine experiencing time and it goes on and on…for ever. While humans have had ideas about an afterlife of various sorts, none are really well thought out and of course, no one really knows.

I think that is where religion is different, because, for example with Christianity, there is a natural realm with creatures that have souls that die with their bodies, yet for humans the soul is not natural but supernatural (with will and intellect) such that when there is death of the body, the person is not longer, but the soul still exists, and a body will be resurrected for it later. In that respect it is similar to reincarnation (but with only one). The typical materialist view would work fine for everything created with the exception of humans and angels.

 

[Pattylt]

I think that is where religion is different, because, for example with Christianity, there is a natural realm with creatures that have souls that die with their bodies, yet for humans the soul is not natural but supernatural (with will and intellect) such that when there is death of the body, the person is not longer, but the soul still exists, and a body will be resurrected for it later. In that respect it is similar to reincarnation (but with only one). The typical materialist view would work fine for everything created with the exception of humans and angels.

Oh, it’s absolutely different. All the things believers believe about Heaven and Hell are through revelation. There is no material evidence for any of it. The supernatural realm is inaccessible to science so science has nothing to say about it. That’s why I try to warn Christians about claims they make. As soon as you claim something from the supernatural interacts with the material world…that science can investigate. And those claims have been found lacking.

The supernatural realm is completely within theological faith. It’s untestable and unfalsifiable. It takes faith to believe it and includes Heaven and Hell. When you have no faith, it’s an empty claim and when you do have faith, it means everything to you.

 

[QuietKarlos]

Well I don’t think if our faith exists is a scientific question and no one claims it to be. Although it depends what you mean by science exactly. There are reasonable reasons to believe outside of science though in my opinion.