Unbelievers roll away the stone !!!

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“What is so frustrating for our present purpose is that it seems almost impossible to give any numerical value to the probability of what seems a rather unlikely sequence of events… An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle.”

-Dr. Francis Crick
 
Wow, you missed out to reply to a lot of her questions. Such as the testimonies that took place, the healings that occured and ect. Science dosen´t have all the answers, and Grace was right when she said
"However you seek to describe that, which any actual scientist would say is way beyond his field of study, and you claim to give a factual statements about it. " Your reply was

I actually believe it was YOU who was programmed (through your envorionment) to believe in Chritianity. You were never a true Christian, you never actually LOVED Jesus Christ. Believing in Him and adoring Him are 2 different things. This is why I believe you left Christinaity. I can`t imagine anybody that felt the love of Christ actually abandon Him in the future.
Brother. Let us not entertain this guy anymore. We are dealing with a person who claims he can scientifically prove that God never appeared to man.
He has thereby created a new science and a new belief, which has another name: namely fiction. And I am not going to waste my time on it.

However, atheist, if you read this. I would like you to give me the sources of the scientific Fatima-1917 miracle, this wholly natural phenomenon that was seen by all the people, as you say. I would also like to know why it could not be seen from other areas close by and least but not all, how did the 70.000 know how and where to show up that rainy day? Were they all super-meteorolists and not actually peasants?

🤷
 
Brother. Let us not entertain this guy anymore. We are dealing with a person who claims he can scientifically prove that God never appeared to man.
He has thereby created a new science and a new belief, which has another name: namely fiction. And I am not going to waste my time on it.

However, atheist, if you read this. I would like you to give me the sources of the scientific Fatima-1917 miracle, this wholly natural phenomenon that was seen by all the people, as you say. I would also like to know why it could not be seen from other areas close by and least but not all, how did the 70.000 know how and where to show up that rainy day? Were they all super-meteorolists and not actually peasants?

🤷
Grace I just need to ask you this real quick, what do you really mean when you said God did appear to man. I hope you mean through His mother or His son, or some other divine intervention, because I myself don`t believe GOD appeared to man. Have you ever heard the question:

Who can see God and not die?🙂
 
Brother. Let us not entertain this guy anymore. We are dealing with a person who claims he can scientifically prove that God never appeared to man.
He has thereby created a new science and a new belief, which has another name: namely fiction. And I am not going to waste my time on it.

However, atheist, if you read this. I would like you to give me the sources of the scientific Fatima-1917 miracle, this wholly natural phenomenon that was seen by all the people, as you say. I would also like to know why it could not be seen from other areas close by and least but not all, how did the 70.000 know how and where to show up that rainy day? Were they all super-meteorolists and not actually peasants?

🤷
Don’t give up on him, be patient.
 
Grace I just need to ask you this real quick, what do you really mean when you said God did appear to man. I hope you mean through His mother or His son, or some other divine intervention, because I myself don`t believe GOD appeared to man. Have you ever heard the question:

Who can see God and not die?🙂
Philip said to Jesus: “Show us the Father and it will be enough for us”. Jesus said:
“Oh Philip! So long have I been with you and you do not recognise Me? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father”.

My brother. If you dont believe that Jesus is God then you are not a Christian. We believe Jesus is God and always was God- the-Son who voluntarily took on flesh to become one of us in our circumstances, so He could suffer everything and carry our sins up on the Cross for our salvation.

God-the-Father is made open and approachable since Jesus reconsiled us to Himself. This does not mean you will see Him already here, although He might vaguely show Himself to some blessed people in images …somehow… because you cannot see God the Father or the Holy Spirit as long as you are on earth. But Jesus became flesh and He says: “You see me and will see me”…
I know many people who saw Jesus. But no one who saw God the Father. That is how it is…

You say: Who can see God and die. You must read your Bible. The verse you quote is from the time of Moses… the Old Covenant.
The New Testament says: “Nothing impure can stand before God”. It also is very clear that Jesus is our Justification… through Him we are washed so we can stand infront of God… really we are washed clean in the Blood of Christ.
At the time of Moses God came close but yet at a distance as a Fire that you cannot approach. Through Christ God comes close, even into our innermost heart where He lives. This is a spiritual litteral truth and the more you discover it, the more can you be a powerful witness and act through the mighty Strength of the Holy Spirit.

I hope you understand… these are basic truths of Christianity.

Peace to you Benjamin.
 
Philip said to Jesus: “Show us the Father and it will be enough for us”. Jesus said:
“Oh Philip! So long have I been with you and you do not recognise Me? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father”.

My brother. If you dont believe that Jesus is God then you are not a Christian. We believe Jesus is God and always was God- the-Son who voluntarily took on flesh to become one of us in our circumstances, so He could suffer everything and carry our sins up on the Cross for our salvation.

God-the-Father is made open and approachable since Jesus reconsiled us to Himself. This does not mean you will see Him already here, although He might vaguely show Himself to some blessed people in images …somehow… because you cannot see God the Father or the Holy Spirit as long as you are on earth. But Jesus became flesh and He says: “You see me and will see me”…
I know many people who saw Jesus. But no one who saw God the Father. That is how it is…

You say: Who can see God and die. You must read your Bible. The verse you quote is from the time of Moses… the Old Covenant.
The New Testament says: “Nothing impure can stand before God”. It also is very clear that Jesus is our Justification… through Him we are washed so we can stand infront of God… really we are washed clean in the Blood of Christ.
At the time of Moses God came close but yet at a distance as a Fire that you cannot approach. Through Christ God comes close, even into our innermost heart where He lives. This is a spiritual litteral truth and the more you discover it, the more can you be a powerful witness and act through the mighty Strength of the Holy Spirit.

I hope you understand… these are basic truths of Christianity.

Peace to you Benjamin.
Hello Grace:)

Thank you for your kind respone and you must know I understand as well as agree on everything you wrote. But the fact we havent seen God the Father is because the Head of the Trinity is beyond all of our understandings. When you said Jesus is in the Flesh, you got it right on the dot. Jesus is God **in the Flesh.** This is why Jesus is called the Son of God because He made God approachable, just like how you said. But what I was thinking you meant is Gods true identity. No human could ever see how God really looks. Because how God really looks is way beyond our limited comprehension. This is why in the Old Testament it says God cant never show us His face. Some non-Catholics believe this is a contradiction for Jesus Christ who we believe is the Son of the Living God is not supposed to show us us His face. But they don`t understand what I just stated God humbled Himself to become Man. He loved us so much, He gave us the opportunity to see Him and to touch Him. But only because GOD humbled Himself down. He had to do all of this for it to become possible. So I know exactly what you meand by your post.

But don`t forget, nobody could ever see God (the Creator of the All) and NOT die. If God appeared to man the way He exists in Heaven, the man will surely die. Because no human heart could possible bare the Love that God is.

Thank you dear sister for your response once again, I do appreciate it:)

God Bless you!
 
Brother. Let us not entertain this guy anymore. We are dealing with a person who claims he can scientifically prove that God never appeared to man.
He has thereby created a new science and a new belief, which has another name: namely fiction. And I am not going to waste my time on it.

However, atheist, if you read this. I would like you to give me the sources of the scientific Fatima-1917 miracle, this wholly natural phenomenon that was seen by all the people, as you say. I would also like to know why it could not be seen from other areas close by and least but not all, how did the 70.000 know how and where to show up that rainy day? Were they all super-meteorolists and not actually peasants?

🤷
why would you waste your time on me?? I have no penchant for religion … in whatever form. It’s not that I hate religion, like all other musings of the ancients it’s only a matter of time before our grand or great grand kids scratch their heads wondering … how did our ancestors ever believe this nonsense.

Hopefully though the end of religion won’t to too brutal. I still love the Vatican and its wonderful art (a true miracle, but a miracle created for man by man … AND MAN ALONE).
 
why would you waste your time on me?? I have no penchant for religion … in whatever form.
And why do you waste your time here?

What are you looking for? We ask you whether you’re happy and you would not answer. You know this is a religious forum. What do you have to offer us that we do not have?

What are you without belief in a higher being that can answer your question in life? So you do not have to answer to anyone, anybody. So you are only a clump of body cells to be wasted and expired when your time come. And that’s it?

What’s your purpose in life?

So I ask again, what are you doing here? Why do you care to mix with people who put their hope what man cannot see and hear? Isn’t this a waste of your time? Isn’t it insulted your intelligence and your all-knowing self-knowledge?

Why do you bother to prove religions are wrong? Do you have in mind that we may believe you and leave our religion respectively? What good is that for you?

I am soo sorry that lots of questions. Like I said I don not understand atheists. Do they have aspiration; do they ever want to be contented, and so on. Why don’t you share with us your thought on this?

Do you have a problem that you cannot somehow idnetify but bother you all the same? Do you want us to help you or share with you what we know and feel and experience?
 
interesting questions & I suppose all fair ones. I wound up here because I’m on a business trip (long duration, and in a town I’ve never been too before). I’m a former Catholic so when I ran into CAF (through a google search) I was intrigued and decided to register & check it out.

I’m also not a normal atheist. I used to be quite a strong believer (or at least I had a high level of interest in theology, and I have a fairly extensive background in it). Perhaps all I ever had was intellectual assent (and religion gave me some semblance of belonging to something bigger than myself). Who knows (and I won’t bother with unproductive speculation).

At anyrate, I won’t get into why I don’t believe anymore, but suffice it to say it’s not out of anger with god, the existence of evil in the world, or anything like that. My reasoning is purely logical & I firmly believe god as described by all contemporary world religions simply doesn’t exist. Still, theology is somewhat entertaining to discuss (a doctor doesn’t have to have cancer to cure it does he? Well, neither does one have to believe what you believe to understand theology).

Also I’m not here to prove religion wrong (you can’t prove anything to a biased audience). As far as happiness … I think I’m very happy (much more now than when I was Christian).

As far as being my own law, it’s funny you say such a thing about atheists.

Lowest divorce rates = atheists

Lowest prison incarceration rates =,atheists

Lowest incidents of spousal abuse = atheists

Lowest incidents of STD’s = atheists

Highest education levels = atheists

Score the highest on happiness and life satisfaction surveys = atheists

Hmmmm … now let’s look at you guys:

Highest prison incarceration rates = Catholics (with protestants running a close second)

Highest illiteracy rates = Catholics (again, with protestants running a close second)

And these sort of statistics go on and on. It’s so funny … in the area you guys boast amount the most (avoidance of sin) you perform the poorest. Hmmmm … as I’m scratching my head I’m thinking (OK I won’t say it). 🙂
 
Why is someone calling themselves “Humble In Doubt” so concerned with convincing us how special they are? “I’m not your normal atheist…”, “I’m a former Catholic…” Yeah, whatever. We’ve heard it all before, and it sure sounds like the normal atheistic arguments that “ex-Catholics” love to peddle around here. Maybe you failed as a Christian because you believe in yourself a bit too much.
 
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interesting questions & I suppose all fair ones. I wound up here because I’m on a business trip (long duration, and in a town I’ve never been too before). I’m a former Catholic so when I ran into CAF (through a google search) I was intrigued and decided to register & check it out.
Well, fair enough too. You have nothing better to do, and Catholic site still present ‘soft spot’ for you. So you come in and see what these guys are doing. Kind of to see how they are getting on or did I miss something after I left?

I noted you use the word ‘intrigue’. At least Catholicism still makes an impact on you and you are not indifferent to it.
I’m also not a normal atheist. I used to be quite a strong believer (or at least I had a high level of interest in theology, and I have a fairly extensive background in it). Perhaps all I ever had was intellectual assent (and religion gave me some semblance of belonging to something bigger than myself). Who knows (and I won’t bother with unproductive speculation).
You are in conflict; if you admit this you may find yourself in another interesting journey, by the grace of God. You are empty inside but don’t know what it is. Consider this as a time of grace; somehow, somewhere God is calling. Remember that he is a good shepherd. He would look for the lost sheep and if he finds one, he will leave the rest to get the one that is lost. You could be that ‘one’; it is a possibility. But if your spurn this invitation it may be a long time before you find one and it may be too late. Time is like a thief; it comes at an hour which we do not know.
At anyrate, I won’t get into why I don’t believe anymore, but suffice it to say it’s not out of anger with god, the existence of evil in the world, or anything like that. My reasoning is purely logical & I firmly believe god as described by all contemporary world religions simply doesn’t exist. Still, theology is somewhat entertaining to discuss (a doctor doesn’t have to have cancer to cure it does he? Well, neither does one have to believe what you believe to understand theology).
Such an intelligent person would surely admit that any interesting topic eventually will capture your interest too, rightly or wrongly.

So what is it? Are you sure you understand Catholicism and left after understanding it or you still have that doubt and maybe there is certain aspect of it that you had missed out? And that’s why you sort of testing the water here, in case, just in case, someone comes out with something that may convince you.

In other word you are seeking. Ah, the mind of an atheist, too mysterious to understand but nevertheless, he is just human, an ordinary human too.
Also I’m not here to prove religion wrong (you can’t prove anything to a biased audience). As far as happiness … I think I’m very happy (much more now than when I was Christian).
It’s good to hear that. I agree that happiness is relative. If you are better off today in happiness that you were yesterday, who are we to tell you otherwise?

I only like to share with you that I talked just like you before I knew God in a special way. And yes, I was a Catholic then. Could it be possible that you may miss something that you do not know today? Believe me; too many times we hear people thought they were alright, happy until they found out that there were more within them that might not be alright after all. You just need someone to p(name removed by moderator)oint that out.

I am not evangelizing you, you are too smart to have a mind of your own, but think for a second, could it be that you may miss out on something. There are just too many people went through your experience and once the shepherd finds them, they just have to eat their words when after all; they need a God because without Him they were nothing. We are only as much as we make ourselves to be without God, and that is, we are only lumps of human cells to be expired and deceased when the time comes.
God promise us eternal life and there is more to just being expired and deceased.
 
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As far as being my own law, it’s funny you say such a thing about atheists.

Lowest divorce rates = atheists

Lowest prison incarceration rates =,atheists

Lowest incidents of spousal abuse = atheists

Lowest incidents of STD’s = atheists

Highest education levels = atheists

Score the highest on happiness and life satisfaction surveys = atheists
Hmmmm … now let’s look at you guys:

Highest prison incarceration rates = Catholics (with protestants running a close second)

Highest illiteracy rates = Catholics (again, with protestants running a close second)
I respectfully disagree.

The prisons are inhibited by unbelievers – many of them Christians. Many Christians found their faith in prison.

I agree that atheists have higher education level, yes, but not the others you mentioned.

Do you have any figures for the statement from a respected poll or something? As far as I know what you stated is simply not true. Perhaps it is only your impression and it’s likely that you are confusing nominal Christians and true Christians who understand and live the faith. They are two very different things.
And these sort of statistics go on and on. It’s so funny … in the area you guys boast amount the most (avoidance of sin) you perform the poorest. Hmmmm … as I’m scratching my head I’m thinking (OK I won’t say it). 🙂
What are you trying to say here? We have never claimed that we do NOT sin. Not at all. You only have to browse the sins and, confession threads here and you know what I mean. I say this; the more Christian one is, the more he/she realizes that he/she is sinful. And sins are to be avoided and should we sin, it must be repented of.

I don’t know whether this makes the difference between an atheist and a Christian. Have you ever done any wrongdoing? Is wrongdoing something that you believe in not doing? And if you had, do you regret of having done it or not? If you regret, what would your action be to redeem yourself?
 
Of course I’ve made mistakes in life, but now as an adult I pretty much don’t do anything I consider wrong. I sometimes get a bit angry, but only when the person I’m angry at is an idiot (so I have no reason to regret it). Sometimes I get annoyed, but only when an annoying person is near me (so why would I regret feeling something I’m apt to feel under any circumstance)?

I don’t break the law, I rarely even speed (and when I do it’s usually on a highway where everyone is speeding), I pay my bills, I’m productive, friendly, even fun to be around (unless perhaps you want to talk religion). So no I regret nothing; nor do I feel guilt for anything (since I have nothing to feel guilty for). I don’t ascribe to a religion that views humans as inherently sinful, depraved, or whatever. I believe you do what you choose. If you do the wrong thing you pay the consequences, not to some invisible power, but here and now while you’re on earth.

I’m honest to a fault, never steal, and never act out of uncontrolled violence. I don’t need to believe anything outside of myself must help me behave myself. I take full ownership for me.

As far as the stats on prisoners … it’s true. People might say something like I’m not religious, but to be atheist is something different (since most of those people would still say they believe in a god, and still harbor superstition related to ancient mythology of some sort). If you want to say they’re not Catholics … then fine (but just as you get to define whose in your club, we get to define whose in ours … and people who harbor any belief in the supernatural or divine of whatever sort are NOT atheists).

As far as the “am I missing something” line? No … I’m not (I know religion isn’t true, and of what value is hope if it’s false hope?).
 
Of course I’ve made mistakes in life, but now as an adult I pretty much don’t do anything I consider wrong. I sometimes get a bit angry, but only when the person I’m angry at is an idiot (so I have no reason to regret it). Sometimes I get annoyed, but only when an annoying person is near me (so why would I regret feeling something I’m apt to feel under any circumstance)?
My dear, this is what we call self-righteousness. The different between atheism and Christianity is that in the former you call the shot. Self-righteousness has no place in Christianity or the teaching of Jesus.

Again, another distinct differences – you don’t regret and don’t have the need to feel regret for your action because you makes the rule for you to follow in your life.

I thought this is the strength of an atheist but after looking at the recent economic meltdown where many atheists committed suicide after experiencing great loss in properties and income; and could not come to term with the changes in lifestyle that their only solution is to take their own lives, I began to think that they are not that strong after all.

Christianity gives you hope while an atheist depends solely on himself.
I don’t break the law, I rarely even speed (and when I do it’s usually on a highway where everyone is speeding), I pay my bills, I’m productive, friendly, even fun to be around (unless perhaps you want to talk religion). So no I regret nothing; nor do I feel guilt for anything (since I have nothing to feel guilty for). I don’t ascribe to a religion that views humans as inherently sinful, depraved, or whatever. I believe you do what you choose. If you do the wrong thing you pay the consequences, not to some invisible power, but here and now while you’re on earth.

I’m honest to a fault, never steal, and never act out of uncontrolled violence. I don’t need to believe anything outside of myself must help me behave myself. I take full ownership for me.
Great. Then I am cracking my head as to why you should be here at all. You said you are intrigued but you are arguing and saying that we are wrong. You should not been here because you has been here as a former Catholic. Why the need to look back and toy with those whose belief is contradictory to yours?
As far as the stats on prisoners … it’s true. People might say something like I’m not religious, but to be atheist is something different (since most of those people would still say they believe in a god, and still harbor superstition related to ancient mythology of some sort). If you want to say they’re not Catholics … then fine (but just as you get to define whose in your club, we get to define whose in ours … and people who harbor any belief in the supernatural or divine of whatever sort are NOT atheists).
There are Christians who are just in names only. They do not actually believe and do not live the faith. That is the difference. You were a Christian once but you are not now. This is not about clubs; Christianity is about faith and being witnesses to Christ. It’s impossible for a true Christian to really indulge in wrongdoings and sins without knowing that they are wrong and feeling guilty if they commit them.
As far as the “am I missing something” line? No … I’m not (I know religion isn’t true, and of what value is hope if it’s false hope?).
This is not what many people like you testified today. I am not going to say that you are lying; you simply believe in yourself, making the rule and everything is alright because you decide it is so.

You have no interest or business in this forum if at all what you say is true. Either you are extremely lonely and need the attention or abnormal, I can’t see any reason why you have to argue with people of religions, knowing very well we don’t share your position.
 
My friend I don’t make my own rules. I live by the rules of the United States, and right now the state of Texas (which are far more rigorous than gods rules, which are pretty simple and undemanding to live by). Don’t murder, steal, lie, cheat (OK I added that one), commit adultery (I’m not married … but anyway), etc. etc. Pretty easy. We also have to wear our seat belt when we drive, we cannot drink and drive, we cannot use any form of illegal drugs, we cannot assault others, etc. I live by all these rules as I’m sure you do. I’m the guy next door (and I don’t even proclaim my lack of faith to my neighbors). I’m the guy you would trust to watch your kids in a pinch. Why … because I am me, not because of little angels flying around (OK maybe in college I had some strange experiences … but I don’t think any of them involved little angels … but anyway I’m reminiscing).

Why am I here? Hmmm … I guess I’m a little nostalgic. Half my family (the half I love the most) remains Catholic. So what can I do … I must love Catholics. Yet I still know none of it is true. I don’t just think … I know!
 
My friend I don’t make my own rules. I live by the rules of the United States, and right now the state of Texas (which are far more rigorous than gods rules, which are pretty simple and undemanding to live by). Don’t murder, steal, lie, cheat (OK I added that one), commit adultery (I’m not married … but anyway), etc. etc. Pretty easy. We also have to wear our seat belt when we drive, we cannot drink and drive, we cannot use any form of illegal drugs, we cannot assault others, etc. I live by all these rules as I’m sure you do. I’m the guy next door (and I don’t even proclaim my lack of faith to my neighbors). I’m the guy you would trust to watch your kids in a pinch. Why … because I am me, not because of little angels flying around (OK maybe in college I had some strange experiences … but I don’t think any of them involved little angels … but anyway I’m reminiscing).

Why am I here? Hmmm … I guess I’m a little nostalgic. Half my family (the half I love the most) remains Catholic. So what can I do … I must love Catholics. Yet I still know none of it is true. I don’t just think … I know!
Good luck then and continue to be what you are. Good people are hard to come by in today’s world and all I can say is to thank God for you and what you are.

As for me and my family, we will follow the Lord.
 
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