Unbroken chain of predestination and future Glorification?

[Erick_Ybarra]

Hello,

I am trying to suppress my tendency of believing in once saved always saved.

I am having a hard time with the following passage in Scripture

“And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Rom 8:28-20)

It would seem to me, just by reading it, that the “purpose” of God is driving all of these blessings. In another place, Paul calls it the “purpose of election” (Rom 9:11) wherein he determines the destiny of man before he/she is born and has the ability to do any good or evil. Look at what Paul says, there is an unbroken chain connecting God’s predestination, his justification, and glorification. It would seem to me that if someone is justified that means they are in this indestructible path of God’s purpose which works above and beyond our understanding.

Also consider Romans 9:10 “And no only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad – in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls – she was told ‘The older shall serve the younger’. As it is written ‘Jacob I loved, and Esau I hated’”.

It seems as though God had predetermined each man’s destiny before he/she is born and has the opportunity to do any good or evil. And he uses the example of a potter who has the freedom to just build whatever he wants.

Help!!

 

[WoundedIcon]

The problem is that, elsewhere in the NT, certain sins are said to be damning. I would advise you to look up corporate election and the New Perspective On Paul. Basically modern scholarship is coming to see Romans as primarily dealing with the relations between Jewish and Gentile Christians. In light of that, Romans 9 appears to be saying that the Jews, who thought they were special and elect, were only chosen to bring Christ to the world and salvation to the gentiles. Another bit of advice, find the passages that Paul refers to from the OT and read them in context. That will help a bit too.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Will do.
Actually, I’ve been reading the Catholic Encyclopedia on Predestination and that is also helpful.

I really have an issue with seeing God as providing an equal symmetrical cause for the sin and righteousness in the world. This kind of God is not just allowing situations, he is behind them and purposing them. He is the first cause to the life of sin in humanity and also the first cause to the life of righteousness in humanity.

To me, this would turn everything on it’s head. If God is causing evil, then how is it that he is not for evil? If he is for evil, why does he judge the world?

 

[poptown]

Foreknowledge and free will is the answer.

 

[po18guy]

It is always good to view scripture as a seamless whole. Concentrating on solitary verses, or even chapters, to the exclusion of all others is like driving through fog: You cannot see where you are headed, and the big picture is obscured. God wills that all men come to the knowledge of salvation, correct? The Pharisees, by rejecting John’s baptism of repentance, rejected God’s purpose for them.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Erick,

God is one simple eternal act. From all eternity he has decided to create a world in which some would accept His plan and some who wouldn’t. This is free will, without which there can be no love. God wanted a world in which there would be love. He knew who would use their free will to love Him and who wouldn’t but he was not forcing anyone to make a wrong choice. He knew but did not will it.

For those who were to make the right choices, he prepared the necessary graces. This is the correct sense of predestination.

What do you think?

Verbum

 

[thenobes]

How do you know that’s future glorification??

“And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Rom 8:28-20)

Really, I do mean this. It’s not just a chnce to be negative. How do we know that the verse should be interpreted as future glorification?

Isn’t the fact that Christ is working through those in His Church a sign of current glorification? And if so, isn’t it possible that we can lose that current glorification?

peace
steve

 

[guanophore]

Hello,

I am trying to suppress my tendency of believing in once saved always saved.

Why?

  I am having a hard time with the following passage in Scripture

“And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Rom 8:28-20)

It would seem to me, just by reading it, that the “purpose” of God is driving all of these blessings. In another place, Paul calls it the “purpose of election” (Rom 9:11) wherein he determines the destiny of man before he/she is born and has the ability to do any good or evil. Look at what Paul says, there is an unbroken chain connecting God’s predestination, his justification, and glorification. It would seem to me that if someone is justified that means they are in this indestructible path of God’s purpose which works above and beyond our understanding.

You are reading into the text here. First of all, it is in the past tense. The OSAS people remove it from that past tense and basically read the present into it. The reason that it is an unbroken chain is because it is PAST. St. Paul is talking about people who have already obtained their heavenly reward. As long as we are on this earth, the chain can be broken at any point.

Also consider Romans 9:10 “And no only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad – in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls – she was told ‘The older shall serve the younger’. As it is written ‘Jacob I loved, and Esau I hated’”.

Election exists. God chooses people before they are born for certain purposes.

It seems as though God had predetermined each man’s destiny before he/she is born and has the opportunity to do any good or evil. And he uses the example of a potter who has the freedom to just build whatever he wants.

Yes, but the human “pot” he created with free will, so that it is possible for us to reject His purpose for ourselves.

Help!!

You just need to balance these scriptures with others that shed more light on the whole story. The reason people fall into the error of OSAS is that they take passages like these out of context, and ignore other Scriptures that also pertain to that subject.

 

[guanophore]

Will do.
Actually, I’ve been reading the Catholic Encyclopedia on Predestination and that is also helpful.

I really have an issue with seeing God as providing an equal symmetrical cause for the sin and righteousness in the world. This kind of God is not just allowing situations, he is behind them and purposing them. He is the first cause to the life of sin in humanity and also the first cause to the life of righteousness in humanity.

To me, this would turn everything on it’s head. If God is causing evil, then how is it that he is not for evil? If he is for evil, why does he judge the world?

Human beings are made in the image and likeness of God. That image includes free will to choose good and evil. God has allowed evil because it reflects the pinnacle of love, which is choosing the good. Look at the crucifixion as an example. Deicide (the killing of God) is the ultimate evil, but God worked through that to bring salvation to the world.

God created us by, through, and for Love. In order for Love to exist, there must be freedom. He did not create us to be puppets, but so that we would seek after Him, and find him. Love requires that the alternative exists - refusal to have fellowship with Him.