Unconditional love of God?

[glendab]

Hello everyone. I’m going to ask this question because it bothers me sometimes: Have you any knowledge of the “unconditional love” of God that folks seem to think exists?

I understand the love of God a little differently. It sometimes bothers me to hear this. Perhaps I don’t understand what they mean by the phrase “unconditional love” of God. Is there something I’m not getting?

Glenda

 

[TRH1292]

I’m not sure what you are asking. Are you asking if we have experienced God’s unconditional love?

 

[Avila123]

Also, could you give a little context e.g. an idea of where you are coming from. Sometimes it can get a tad difficult when we use different words to describe the same thing.

God bless.

 

[JRKH]

I’m not sure what you are asking. Are you asking if we have experienced God’s unconditional love?

Agreed - not sure what is being asked…

Do I have knowledge of God’s unconditional Love? Yes - I see this Love all through the NT.
“God Is Love” (1 John 4:7-8)
The greatest commandments - and the foundation of all the law and the prophets is Love (Mt 22:36-40)
The commandment given us by Christ is that We Love one another. (John 13:34-35)
Love is greater than either faith or hope (1 Cor 13:1-13)

Everything else grows out of this…

Do I have experience of this unconditional Love? Yes! Over time I have come to understand just how patient God has been with me in my life, as I have gone about making mistake after mistake and sin after sin.

Peace
James

 

[Googler]

Check this out Glenda. I will not judge, as others may.
I will pray for the ungrateful souls and those saints who suffer united to His sacred heart united to our Virgin Momma.
One of the closest friends of Jesus, St. Mary Magdalene, has unconditional love of Him, whom believes hope doesn’t give way to despair. True sweetness comes only from true goodness.
Our joy is the hopeful reliance on His power and mercy awaiting our eternal unity and bliss of heaven and there after. The Lord gives rest from our labors and the deeds that chase us.

 

[clem456]

Hello everyone. I’m going to ask this question because it bothers me sometimes: Have you any knowledge of the “unconditional love” of God that folks seem to think exists?

I understand the love of God a little differently. It sometimes bothers me to hear this. Perhaps I don’t understand what they mean by the phrase “unconditional love” of God. Is there something I’m not getting?

Glenda

Unconditional.
We make conditions. God does not. God is love. He loves in all cases, because that is who he is. His will is all-good all the time. We don’t condition his love by our merits. His love is not conditioned on anything we do, good or bad. It simply is. It’s on us to accept. Sounds very simple and easy. Simple yes. Easy? Not for me.

If you read the Old Testament it is full of wars and injustices of all kinds. Some are perpetrated on the Israelites, some they perpetrate on others. Despite the perpetration of evil, God gives himself wholly and without conditions to save us. He actually pours himself out into human flesh without regard for his own security. He allows himself to be subject to birth, poverty, injustice, and crucifixion. God, who can create any conditions he wishes, lets go of them completely and just loves.

What a wonderful gift. Why can’t we accept it without conditions? I say I want to love God, I’d like to live in God’s love…but only when it’s convenient for me, when I don’t have to suffer too much, as long as I can have all the conditions I want.

 

[teachccd]

Unconditional.
We make conditions. God does not. God is love. He loves in all cases, because that is who he is. His will is all-good all the time. We don’t condition his love by our merits. His love is not conditioned on anything we do, good or bad. It simply is. It’s on us to accept. Sounds very simple and easy. Simple yes. Easy? Not for me.

If you read the Old Testament it is full of wars and injustices of all kinds. Some are perpetrated on the Israelites, some they perpetrate on others. Despite the perpetration of evil, God gives himself wholly and without conditions to save us. He actually pours himself out into human flesh without regard for his own security. He allows himself to be subject to birth, poverty, injustice, and crucifixion. God, who can create any conditions he wishes, lets go of them completely and just loves.

What a wonderful gift. Why can’t we accept it without conditions? I say I want to love God, I’d like to live in God’s love…but only when it’s convenient for me, when I don’t have to suffer too much, as long as I can have all the conditions I want.

Awesome reply!!

 

[JRKH]

Unconditional.
We make conditions. God does not. God is love. He loves in all cases, because that is who he is. His will is all-good all the time. We don’t condition his love by our merits. His love is not conditioned on anything we do, good or bad. It simply is. It’s on us to accept. Sounds very simple and easy. Simple yes. Easy? Not for me.

If you read the Old Testament it is full of wars and injustices of all kinds. Some are perpetrated on the Israelites, some they perpetrate on others. Despite the perpetration of evil, God gives himself wholly and without conditions to save us. He actually pours himself out into human flesh without regard for his own security. He allows himself to be subject to birth, poverty, injustice, and crucifixion. God, who can create any conditions he wishes, lets go of them completely and just loves.

What a wonderful gift. Why can’t we accept it without conditions? I say I want to love God, I’d like to live in God’s love…but only when it’s convenient for me, when I don’t have to suffer too much, as long as I can have all the conditions I want.

Awesome reply!!

Agree - awesome reply.

Peace
James

 

[mikekle]

Hello everyone. I’m going to ask this question because it bothers me sometimes: Have you any knowledge of the “unconditional love” of God that folks seem to think exists?

I understand the love of God a little differently. It sometimes bothers me to hear this. Perhaps I don’t understand what they mean by the phrase “unconditional love” of God. Is there something I’m not getting?

Glenda

Actually, Im tending to see Gods love as conditional and has an expiration date, (for some). I have been on some other threads on here about life after death and if a person can ask for forgiveness after they have died and be saved by God, many on here say absolutely not, if a person dies in mortal sin, they are going to hell, and that is that.

Well, i tend to believe anyone can ask for Gods forgiveness at any time, even if they have been in hell for a long time, if Gods love is truly unconditional and eternal, this would be true, however if a person ONLY has the time when they are alive, then that is surely not eternal and definitely conditional. Just my opinion.

 

[glendab]

Hello Truth:

I’m not sure what you are asking. Are you asking if we have experienced God’s unconditional love?

No, I’m asking how you define that phrase, “unconditional love.” What does it mean to you?

I should add I don’t believe it exists - that it is wishful thinking at best and at worst presumption. I also think it has developed from a OSAS mentality/spirituality and has become too accepted.

I have other thoughts about it, but I won’t share them just yet till I see some response in a reasonable manner.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Avila and thanks for responding.

Also, could you give a little context e.g. an idea of where you are coming from. Sometimes it can get a tad difficult when we use different words to describe the same thing.

God bless.

As for a context, I really haven’t got anything quotable out of a speech or a book, but the phrase gets tossed around a lot and I don’t like it. I don’t think there really is anything such thing as the “unconditional” love of God.

I just thought I’d ask here what others think about it to see if perhaps my thinking needs changing about it or not. It seems like this would be the place to find out what others think about this popular phrase.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Clem, thanks for the reply.

Unconditional.
We make conditions. God does not. God is love. He loves in all cases, because that is who he is. His will is all-good all the time. We don’t condition his love by our merits. His love is not conditioned on anything we do, good or bad…Despite the perpetration of evil, God gives himself wholly and without conditions to save us. He actually pours himself out into human flesh without regard for his own security. He allows himself to be subject to birth, poverty, injustice, and crucifixion. God, who can create any conditions he wishes…What a wonderful gift. Why can’t we accept it without conditions? I say I want to love God, I’d like to live in God’s love…but only when it’s convenient for me, when I don’t have to suffer too much, as long as I can have all the conditions I want.

I’ve shortened your quote to point to a few things.

First, the notion that we are the ones to make conditions isn’t accurate. In the Garden of Eden, there were conditions made by God, and it was Adam and Eve’s failure to live up to those conditions which created for all mankind more conditions. Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden because of consequences that came about because of their failure to live within the conditions placed upon them by God. Adam and Eve didn’t make the conditions, God did. The one condition upon which God maintained their dwelling in Eden is that they not eat the fruit of a specific tree. That was a condition of their existence placed upon them by God who loved them. God cursed Adam and Eve and the devil before casting them out of Eden. Is that “unconditional” love? No. And it is easy to see that the notion that God loves “unconditionally” is that, just a notion.

As for His will being “all-good all the time” as you said, what would you say to the flood that wiped mankind from the face of the earth and left only a few folks alive, Noah and his immediate family? That’s pretty bad - God killing every man, woman and child on earth. It happened. Man failed again to live up to the conditions God placed upon them such that God was compelled to act to save a few.

You do state that God can create conditions which is good of you, He is after all God and He makes all the rules we’re supposed to live by. In fact, He loves us and gives us rules to live by or if you will conditions, because He loves us.

Sorry if I seem hard but as I said, I don’t think God loves us without conditions.

Glenda

 

[JRKH]

Hello Truth:

No, I’m asking how you define that phrase, “unconditional love.” What does it mean to you?

I should add I don’t believe it exists - that it is wishful thinking at best and at worst presumption. I also think it has developed from a OSAS mentality/spirituality and has become too accepted.

I have other thoughts about it, but I won’t share them just yet till I see some response in a reasonable manner.

Glenda

Interesting thoughts…

I wonder - since we are told in 1 John 4:8 that God IS Love - I wonder if we can see that love as conditional without placing limits on God…
Just a thought.

Also - I think that it might be useful to be clear about what is meant by “Love” in the way it is used in Scripture.
The majority of the time the Greek word used is “Agape” which is a deep and profound “brotherly” love. A love that seeks the good of another. A selfless love. A love that seeks the highest good.
Now how that might play out in Theological terms…I suppose that is what you are wanting to discuss.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Hello Clem, thanks for the reply.

I’ve shortened your quote to point to a few things.

First, the notion that we are the ones to make conditions isn’t accurate. In the Garden of Eden, there were conditions made by God, and it was Adam and Eve’s failure to live up to those conditions which created for all mankind more conditions. Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden because of consequences that came about because of their failure to live within the conditions placed upon them by God. Adam and Eve didn’t make the conditions, God did. The one condition upon which God maintained their dwelling in Eden is that they not eat the fruit of a specific tree. That was a condition of their existence placed upon them by God who loved them. God cursed Adam and Eve and the devil before casting them out of Eden. Is that “unconditional” love? No. And it is easy to see that the notion that God loves “unconditionally” is that, just a notion.

As for His will being “all-good all the time” as you said, what would you say to the flood that wiped mankind from the face of the earth and left only a few folks alive, Noah and his immediate family? That’s pretty bad - God killing every man, woman and child on earth. It happened. Man failed again to live up to the conditions God placed upon them such that God was compelled to act to save a few.

You do state that God can create conditions which is good of you, He is after all God and He makes all the rules we’re supposed to live by. In fact, He loves us and gives us rules to live by or if you will conditions, because He loves us.

Sorry if I seem hard but as I said, I don’t think God loves us without conditions.

Glenda

In all of these things you have listed…Does Scripture ever say that God ceased to Love us?

Peace
James

 

[glendab]

Hello James:

In all of these things you have listed…Does Scripture ever say that God ceased to Love us?

Peace
James

No, it doesn’t. God loves His people generally, but there are Scriptures that mention God’s hate as well.

God does love us that is why He gives us conditions to live by, rules. God loves us and wants us to be saved. He sent His only Son who died for us so that we could be. There is no guarantee that we will be though. That is what our response to His love will determine. Living by His conditions, His rules, gives us a much better shot at gaining Eternal Salvation. That is how we can show our love for Him. Obedience. It isn’t an popular word these days. Can you agree with that?

Glenda

 

[JRKH]

Hello James:

No, it doesn’t. God loves His people generally, but there are Scriptures that mention God’s hate as well.

God does love us that is why He gives us conditions to live by, rules. God loves us and wants us to be saved. He sent His only Son who died for us so that we could be. There is no guarantee that we will be though. That is what our response to His love will determine. Living by His conditions, His rules, gives us a much better shot at gaining Eternal Salvation. That is how we can show our love for Him. Obedience. It isn’t an popular word these days. Can you agree with that?

Glenda

Very well stated…

So none of these conditions are about His Love - which continues unabated.
The conditions that you refer to are there to help us to achieve what our Loving Father wants for us.

So - there is no condition on His Love.

Peace
James

 

[Avila123]

Hello Glenda,

I wish I could find the bit in the Bible I stumbled across a few weeks ago as it is one example of what I understand to be God’s unconditional love. It is where the people (I think it was the Israelites) turned away from God and the Bible lists their misdemeanors, but after each one it said that they still received blessings from God. The other obvious big example of God’s unconditional love, is sending Jesus to give us salvation (if we want it).

On a personal note, for me, it is turning away from Him and yet He never left me and when I turned round He was there. No strings, demands for repentance, punishment, disappointment or even a request for an apology. God has simply loved, blessed and guided me, in so many ways and yet so gentle and subtle is He, that I have never felt forced.

I noticed that you mentioned that God got angry and it is true that it does say in the Bible that God can get angry (slow to anger and quick to forgive). The thought of disappointing or letting God down, is about all I can cope with. I believe and trust in Him, which is why I do pray on a fairly regular basis, that He will never let me stray or turn away from Him ever again, and to keep me close to Him. I know He isn’t going to leave me, no matter how many times I mess up (in a day, never mind a lifetime). And that seems to me to be backed up countless times in both the Old and New Testaments.

We are all on our journeys of faith, and each soul receives the graces, blessings and gifts needed. No one soul being better than another simply because of what or when blessings are given or for how long. When I say blessings, I hasten to add that I am including those blessings that are difficult to bear and may only be appreciated with hindsight.

I can only give you some of my brief personal thoughts as I am not a Theologian, and I have a long way to travel when it comes to gaining both head and heart knowledge.

May God bless and keep you safe on your journey.

 

[clem456]

Maybe there is some difference in how we are defining “conditional”, or some confusion between conditions and consequences.

Aquinas definition of love is “to will the good of another”. Scripture tells us about God’s love:

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

God is love. Love is who he is. He cannot -not- love because he is unmovable and unchangeable. This is an echo of his identity from the OT… “I Am”. He is essential existence. He is love. We exist because he loves.
In the Garden, God tells Adam and Eve

"when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

This death is a rejection of God’s love, not a withdrawal of it on God’s part. It is a consequence of rejection, of not uniting our will to God’s. God is still love, without conditions. God has no conditions or contingencies, he simply is.
If God’s love had conditions, there would be no cross. The cross is God’s gift of love to all of humanity. It’s unmerited grace, no conditions. It’s not for those who have earned it. No one has earned it. If we reject his gift, we suffer consequences out of our own willfullness.

 

[glendab]

Hello Clem. Nice of you to respond.

Maybe there is some difference in how we are defining “conditional”, or some confusion between conditions and consequences…Aquinas definition of love is “to will the good of another”…Scripture tells us about God’s love:
…God is love…He cannot -not- love because …he is unmovable and unchangeable… We exist because he loves…God is still love, without conditions. God has no conditions or contingencies, he simply is…If God’s love had conditions, there would be no cross. The cross is God’s gift of love to all of humanity. It’s unmerited grace, no conditions. It’s not for those who have earned it. No one has earned it. If we reject his gift, we suffer consequences out of our own willfullness.

See, I can only partly agree with you. I’ll try and make my point which is there actually are conditions on God’s love. God does love us and wills what is good for us, that is why He places conditions on His love and directs us according to His will, i.e., the 10 Commandments. Break them and you’ve begun to loose favor with God. Continue to break them and presume on His mercy and guess what? You loose your salvation and if it weren’t for God’s Mercy in the Confessional, you’d be toast!

He can NOT love. Right after you say God is love, you proceed to presume what that means. Here’s Scripture to the contrary: Malachi, 1:3 “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? says the Lord, yet I loved Jacob and Esau I hated.” Oh dear. God hates a person. And their land became called “the land of guilt, the people with whom the Lord is angry forever.” Not a lovely place where nice folks are basking in the “unconditional” love of God.

You’re statement that God cannot NOT love you or others isn’t true. That is you placing your expectations or your limits or your conditions on God. He loves you and you add the “unconditional” part because *you think *God cannot withdraw His love from you.

It is my contention that there* are *plenty of conditions on God’s love. The Ten Commandments are some pretty tall conditions. The first Commandment tells you to love God.

You state that IF God’s love had* conditions*, there would be no Cross, but those were the very CONDITIONS under which He sent His Son: to die upon that Cross for you and me. Jesus came to pay our debt. That was His expression of love. He gave His life as ransom for many, but NOT FOR ALL. Do not presume on His Mercy. The Cross is what we owe God for our sins, each and everyone of us. No exceptions ( except Mary.) The conditions under which God came to us was to die in ignominy upon a Cross, a man despised. No, the Cross is proof that there is a price for God’s love. If we deny Him, He will deny us. That IS a condition.

Yes, I think there really are conditions on God’s love and that’s how I live.

Glenda

 

[clem456]

Hello Clem. Nice of you to respond.

See, I can only partly agree with you. I’ll try and make my point which is there actually are conditions on God’s love. God does love us and wills what is good for us, that is why He places conditions on His love and directs us according to His will, i.e., the 10 Commandments. Break them and you’ve begun to loose favor with God. Continue to break them and presume on His mercy and guess what? You loose your salvation and if it weren’t for God’s Mercy in the Confessional, you’d be toast!

You’re confusing conditions with consequences. God cannot be conditioned to change his essence by human behavior. Salvation is not lost because God is not love, salvation is lost because man is not, and fails to accept His.

He can NOT love. Right after you say God is love, you proceed to presume what that means. Here’s Scripture to the contrary: Malachi, 1:3 “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? says the Lord, yet I loved Jacob and Esau I hated.” Oh dear. God hates a person. And their land became called “the land of guilt, the people with whom the Lord is angry forever.” Not a lovely place where nice folks are basking in the “unconditional” love of God.
You’re statement that God cannot NOT love you or others isn’t true. That is you placing your expectations or your limits or your conditions on God. He loves you and you add the “unconditional” part because *you think *God cannot withdraw His love from you.

There’s no presumption or opinion here. This what God reveals and what the Church affirms. The catechism is rife with statements about God’s faithful and enduring love in the face of infidelity. One example:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11137224&highlight=for+many#post11137224
God is Love

218 In the course of its history, Israel was able to discover that God had only one reason to reveal himself to them, a single motive for choosing them from among all peoples as his special possession: his sheer gratuitous love.38 And thanks to the prophets Israel understood that **it was again out of love that God never stopped saving them and pardoning their unfaithfulness and sins.**39

219 God’s love for Israel is compared to a father’s love for his son. His love for his people is stronger than a mother’s for her children. God loves his people more than a bridegroom his beloved; **his love will be victorious over even the worst infidelities and will extend to his most precious gift: “God so loved the world that he gave his only Son.”**40

220 God’s love is “everlasting”:41 "For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you."42 Through Jeremiah, God declares to his people, **“I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you.”**43

221 But St. John goes even further when he affirms that “God is love”:44 God’s very being is love. By sending his only Son and the Spirit of Love in the fullness of time, God has revealed his innermost secret:45 God himself is an eternal exchange of love, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and he has destined us to share in that exchange.

Think for a second about what you are debating here^^^^^^

It is my contention that there* are *plenty of conditions on God’s love. The Ten Commandments are some pretty tall conditions. The first Commandment tells you to love God.

The Commandments are given us because God loves us. They are rules for us to follow, they do not prove in any way that God’s love is conditional. God gives the commandments, he is not conditioned by them. He is God. We are not.

You state that IF God’s love had* conditions*, there would be no Cross, but those were the very CONDITIONS under which He sent His Son: to die upon that Cross for you and me. Jesus came to pay our debt. That was His expression of love. He gave His life as ransom for many, but NOT FOR ALL. Do not presume on His Mercy. The Cross is what we owe God for our sins, each and everyone of us. No exceptions ( except Mary.) The conditions under which God came to us was to die in ignominy upon a Cross, a man despised. No, the Cross is proof that there is a price for God’s love. If we deny Him, He will deny us. That IS a condition.

Yes, I think there really are conditions on God’s love and that’s how I live.

Glenda

Where are you getting this presumption idea from? The catechism would be a good source for this topic.
I understand that you express a desire to gain salvation by following the commandments. We all want that. If that is what you mean by conditions, I agree 100 %. But God’s love is unconditional. The cross is proof of that. He gave us his only Son to pay our debt. That ransom is for every human being who ever lived, everywhere, at all times. If his love was not unconditional, he would not have bothered to become flesh and suffer for us rabble.