Finding the God who is loveHello everyone. I’m going to ask this question because it bothers me sometimes: Have you any knowledge of the “unconditional love” of God that folks seem to think exists?
PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION ONE
“I BELIEVE” - “WE BELIEVE”
CHAPTER TWO
GOD COMES TO MEET MAN
Sending one’s spotless and infinitely good Son is not something that a half-hearted lover does. Half hearted and conditional is what we do. If our neighbor offends us, we take retribution. If our spouse offends, we brood and want recompense. That is not who God himself reveals himself to be.50 By natural reason man can know God with certainty, on the basis of his works. But there is another order of knowledge, which man cannot possibly arrive at by his own powers: the order of divine Revelation.1 Through an utterly free decision, God has revealed himself and given himself to man. This he does by revealing the mystery, his plan of loving goodness, formed from all eternity in Christ, for the benefit of all men. God has fully revealed this plan by sending us his beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
God has said everything in his Word
65 "In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son."26 **Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. **St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on Hebrews 1:1-2:
God is, fundamentally and eternally, Trinitarian love, a loving community of divine persons, before breathing life into humans:In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.
27
…
257 "O blessed light, O Trinity and first Unity!“93 God is eternal blessedness, undying life, unfading light. God is love: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God freely wills to communicate the glory of his blessed life. Such is the "plan of his loving kindness”, conceived by the Father before the foundation of the world, in his beloved Son: “He destined us in love to be his sons” and “to be conformed to the image of his Son”, through “the spirit of sonship”.94 This plan is a “grace [which] was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began”, stemming immediately from Trinitarian love.95 **It unfolds in the work of creation, the whole history of salvation after the fall, and the missions of the Son and the Spirit, which are continued **in the mission of the Church.96
…
O my God, Trinity whom I adore, help me forget myself entirely so to establish myself in you, unmovable and peaceful as if my soul were already in eternity. May nothing be able to trouble my peace or make me leave you, O my unchanging God, but may each minute bring me more deeply into your mystery! Grant my soul peace. Make it your heaven, your beloved dwelling and the place of your rest. May I never abandon you there, but may I be there, whole and entire, completely vigilant in my faith, entirely adoring, and wholly given over to your creative action.102
As pointed out above, none of the these conditions apply to determining whether God loves you. Whether you meet the conditions, or not, God’'s love is unchanged.As pointed out earlier, God’s"Love" is by no means unconditional. If you believe in the Christian God, your entire faith is filled with one condition after another.
No, this isn’t about Who God is. You equate the attribute of unconditionality with God being Who He is. You are saying God cannot NOT love someone because He’s God. This isn’t so. There are Biblical supports for this. No, I’m not denying God Who is because I cannot agree with the notion of an “unconditional” love that God has for me. God doesn’t love me “unconditionally.” He gave me the Law to live by. Those are His conditions. Those are His Commandments. That is His Covenant with us. That is what I have to give my assent to to love God and fulfill my part in the Covenantal relationship with Him. This is about the attributes given to God by some persons to add something to the way they see God loving them in particular that removes their responsibility for their actions.… This discussion is, at it’s heart, about who Jesus Christ is…He is God made flesh, he is infinitely good, and blameless. He gave us his body blood soul and divinity in exchange for our sinful selves. This is a complete and unconditional love. To say otherwise is to say that Jesus is not God and did not give himself completely.
Think of the magnitude of the loving gift that Jesus Christ is… this is who God is. He is not swayed by our misery and sin. He does not love like us, he loves as only God himself loves…
Let me just pause right there and say this may be the heart of the misunderstanding.^^^^Hello again Clem. Thank you for responding.
No, this isn’t about Who God is.
You equate the attribute of unconditionality with God being Who He is. You are saying God cannot NOT love someone because He’s God. This isn’t so. There are Biblical supports for this. No, I’m not denying God Who is because I cannot agree with the notion of an “unconditional” love that God has for me. God doesn’t love me “unconditionally.” He gave me the Law to live by. Those are His conditions. Those are His Commandments. That is His Covenant with us. That is what I have to give my assent to to love God and fulfill my part in the Covenantal relationship with Him. This is about the attributes given to God by some persons to add something to the way they see God loving them in particular that removes their responsibility for their actions.
I’ll add this to the discussion now: I have two female friends who both claim that God loves them “unconditionally.” The one is Presbyterian and the other is a fallen away Catholic who hasn’t been to Confession in almost 40 years! I’ve tried to talk to them both about what they believe because I love them and wish the best for them and to me that IS the Catholic Church. One of the points of divergence in our religious discussions that is common to both of them is hat they both say the same thing: God loves them UNCONDITIONALLY and that is why they don’t need the Church! So, I got the picture on more than one occasion of what this supposed “unconditional” love of God means to those who use the phrase. It means they have no real responsibility for their sins. They are in effect permanently “saved” by God’s love and yes, they do tend to go the same places you are going in conversations about meriting salvation through the “works” of Confession and obeying Church Law, etc., as in those things aren’t really necessary at all because they love God and He loves them, therefore He excuses them from their responsibility towards Him. I’m perceived as faulted in my basic understanding of God because of the position I take in this regard. To me it isn’t rocket science to see that God loves me so much He gave me rules to live by. That those rules are a concrete expression of His love for me. I cannot understand the notion of an "unconditional love in the way they mean it. I asked this question here in hope of finding a “Catholic Answer” for my misunderstanding that may be acceptable. I really don’t think I’m going to find one.
One other thing: you say that the giving of the Eucharist is a “complete and unconditional” loving act by God, but a person must make himself or herself worthy to receive Him in Holy Communion. I know I had to prepare for over a year while receiving instructions! There are conditions upon receiving. Yes, I continue to see the word “unconditional” added to the phrase love of God by many who need to believe in that because it is that attribute that saves them, and not God.
Rather than go off into personal differences of opinion, I would simply point to scripture, the catechism, the writings of the saints, the constant teaching of the Catholic Church on who God reveals himself to be. Your disagreement is really not with me, so I’m going to beg off the topic and God bless you.Glenda
If God’s love has always been unconditional, remaining unabated, then what would explain that “Christ had to die so that sins may be forgiven.” How would one articulate this “so that sins may be forgiven” [forgiven by whom?] within the context of the notion of God’s unconditional love?Let me just pause right there and say this may be the heart of the misunderstanding.^^^^
Rather than go off into personal differences of opinion, I would simply point to scripture, the catechism, the writings of the saints, the constant teaching of the Catholic Church on who God reveals himself to be. Your disagreement is really not with me, so I’m going to beg off the topic and God bless you.
Yes, I think the gentler formulation of things is an aberration a dumbing down if you will of Christian thinking on the whole. Fear of the Lord being the beginning of wisdom, excusing oneself and one’s sins by the love of God is silliness. Today’s reading has this to say about our love for God and neighbor: “for the love of God is this, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.” 1 John 5:3.If God’s love has always been unconditional, remaining unabated, then what would explain that “Christ had to die so that sins may be forgiven.” How would one articulate this “so that sins may be forgiven” [forgiven by whom?] within the context of the notion of God’s unconditional love?
Another line that springs to mind is from the Nicene Creed: “he will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead.” Who is doing the judging? (“only God can judge me”). This notion of one excluding oneself from heaven – of the door being locked from the inside, as it were – doesn’t clearly align with the notion of God or Christ judging the living and the dead. Or is it meant metaphorically? It’s as if God’s love is unconditional, but God’s favor is not, unless one takes the position that it is not God judging you, or condemning you – not literally – but that you are doing to yourself (though this is not how it is expressed Biblically, nor in the Nicene Creed).
In all honesty, I do not think some of the early Christians would have recognized this much gentler formulation of things, but I would be glad to be mistaken.
Who here has said this (bolded)? And who has downplayed keeping the commandments? Please be specific.Thank you Portofino for your very intelligent reply. I think you understand what I’m getting at.
Yes, I think the gentler formulation of things is an aberration a dumbing down if you will of Christian thinking on the whole. Fear of the Lord being the beginning of wisdom, excusing oneself and one’s sins by the love of God is silliness. Today’s reading has this to say about our love for God and neighbor: “for the love of God is this, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.” 1 John 5:3.
Glenda
Scripture does say God ceases to love. There are those he calls goats and casts into the eternal fires of Hell. God is love and in Hell there is no God so there is no love therefore when a person goes to Hell God ceases loving them. It is a weak argument but there it is.In all of these things you have listed…Does Scripture ever say that God ceased to Love us?
Peace
James
I agree with your opinion and I also agree with you that many who speak of God’s Love as being unconditional really do not believe this by what they say and/or write.Actually, Im tending to see Gods love as conditional and has an expiration date, (for some). I have been on some other threads on here about life after death and if a person can ask for forgiveness after they have died and be saved by God, many on here say absolutely not, if a person dies in mortal sin, they are going to hell, and that is that.
Well, i tend to believe anyone can ask for Gods forgiveness at any time, even if they have been in hell for a long time, if Gods love is truly unconditional and eternal, this would be true, however if a person ONLY has the time when they are alive, then that is surely not eternal and definitely conditional. Just my opinion.
In the Scriptures where it speaks of “God’s hate”, this “hate” is not defined how we generally define hate but is defined as “love less”.Hello James:
No, it doesn’t. God loves His people generally, but there are Scriptures that mention God’s hate as well.
God does love us that is why He gives us conditions to live by, rules. God loves us and wants us to be saved. He sent His only Son who died for us so that we could be. There is no guarantee that we will be though. That is what our response to His love will determine. Living by His conditions, His rules, gives us a much better shot at gaining Eternal Salvation. That is how we can show our love for Him. Obedience. It isn’t an popular word these days. Can you agree with that?
Glenda
It’s huge, it’s ineffable, it’s beyond anything we can imagine, anything we can muster for another being. And God can reveal it to us. One purpose of the Atonement was to give us an image, a model, a demonstration with which to contemplate this type and degree of love, the kind that would act as Jesus acted. But only God can reveal it to us.Hello everyone. I’m going to ask this question because it bothers me sometimes: Have you any knowledge of the “unconditional love” of God that folks seem to think exists?
I understand the love of God a little differently. It sometimes bothers me to hear this. Perhaps I don’t understand what they mean by the phrase “unconditional love” of God. Is there something I’m not getting?
Glenda
The Scripture I cited for this discussion pointing to the fact that God does hate humans is Malachi 1:3 and 4: Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? says the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, but hated Esau…They shall be called the land of guilt, the people with whom the Lord is angry forever."In the Scriptures where it speaks of “God’s hate”, this “hate” is not defined how we generally define hate but is defined as “love less”.
You wrote, “God loves us and wants us to be saved”, actually what is written, is “It is God’s Will that ALL be saved”, this, most definitely, seems a little stronger than that God wants us to be saved.
There are no conditions on God’s love. But we can reject even that.Hello Tom. Thanks for the reply.
The Scripture I cited for this discussion pointing to the fact that God does hate humans is Malachi 1:3 and 4: Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? says the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, but hated Esau…They shall be called the land of guilt, the people with whom the Lord is angry forever."
As to your thoughts that ALL would be saved: Have you not heard the new translation at Mass during the Eucharistic Prayers of Consecration that say in part: “the blood of the new and eternal covenant, which will be poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Notice the change here is from “all” BACK TO “many.” It used to say “all” but that wasn’t correct so they translated it BACK to the correct usage. No, not all mankind it to be saved by the Blood of the Lamb. Nor will they be. Some folks actually go to Hell. REALLY.
I find some sugar coating in the phrase “unconditional love of God” and a slippery slope down which many have slid. Like I said elsewhere, I cringe when I hear it tossed into the conversation. It isn’t true. There are conditions on God’s love. Our’s is a Covenantal relationship. As was said yesterday in the Readings at Mass: 1 John 5:3 “For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.”
I have yet to change my feelings or my position about this supposed “unconditional” love of God. Thanks for trying.
Glenda
The catechism.Hello Tom. Thanks for the reply.
The Scripture I cited for this discussion pointing to the fact that God does hate humans is Malachi 1:3 and 4: Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? says the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, but hated Esau…They shall be called the land of guilt, the people with whom the Lord is angry forever."
As to your thoughts that ALL would be saved: Have you not heard the new translation at Mass during the Eucharistic Prayers of Consecration that say in part: “the blood of the new and eternal covenant, which will be poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Notice the change here is from “all” BACK TO “many.” It used to say “all” but that wasn’t correct so they translated it BACK to the correct usage. No, not all mankind it to be saved by the Blood of the Lamb. Nor will they be. Some folks actually go to Hell. REALLY.
I find some sugar coating in the phrase “unconditional love of God” and a slippery slope down which many have slid. Like I said elsewhere, I cringe when I hear it tossed into the conversation. It isn’t true. There are conditions on God’s love. Our’s is a Covenantal relationship. As was said yesterday in the Readings at Mass: 1 John 5:3 “For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.”
I have yet to change my feelings or my position about this supposed “unconditional” love of God. Thanks for trying.
Glenda
Well, it’s my understanding that this (unconditional love) is more of a protestant view or phrase. Could even be a official theology in some denominations, not sure. But your suspicions could be correct in the view that one must believe to receive salvation and all the benefits therein. But on the other hand there is the view that is amongst the believers in the realization that they them selves have done nothing to warrant the receiving of salvation and it’s benefits, hence in this respect its unconditional as they understand it.Hello everyone. I’m going to ask this question because it bothers me sometimes: Have you any knowledge of the “unconditional love” of God that folks seem to think exists?
I understand the love of God a little differently. It sometimes bothers me to hear this. Perhaps I don’t understand what they mean by the phrase “unconditional love” of God. Is there something I’m not getting?
Glenda