Under Pope Francis, American Catholics see the ‘pro-life’ label as broader than abortion

[Mystical_Seeker]

Was that Catechism wrong?

Did God condone the death penalty?

If God allowed the Death Penalty, how can you put moral equivalence with Abortion?

OK then you can be the one to pull the switch when it comes time to execute the next criminal…

Warning: disturbing execution scene from the Green Mile

If you think that’s disturbing and I shouldn’t have posted it, how is that any less disturbing because it’s done on a sterile table with injected chemicals?

 

[SWolf]

OK then you can be the one to pull the switch when it comes time to execute the next criminal…

Warning: disturbing execution scene from the Green Mile

If you think that’s disturbing and I shouldn’t have posted it, how is that any less disturbing because it’s done on a sterile table with injected chemicals?

Swift executions have been done throughout history. Just because our current practitioners can’t get it right doesn’t discount their use.

Like I said, the Death Penalty is prudential, Abortion is not. Being pro-life does not require opposition to the death penalty.

Also, to be clear, I am against the Death Penalty in the US. However, in no way do I think a person who supports the Death Penalty to be less Pro-Life. Clumping the two together dilutes the message.

 

[LongingSoul]

Also, to be clear, I am against the Death Penalty in the US. However, in no way do I think a person who supports the Death Penalty to be less Pro-Life. Clumping the two together dilutes the message.

To be clear, you think the Church is wrong? When the Church calls for us to have a consistent pro-life ethic in order that abortion cannot thrive in a culture of death… you think that’s just hooey from the mouths of heretical antipopes?

 

[estesbob]

To be clear, you think the Church is wrong? When the Church calls for us to have a consistent pro-life ethic in order that abortion cannot thrive in a culture of death… you think that’s just hooey from the mouths of heretical antipopes?

The Church is not wrong .You are wrong about what they teach

 

[LongingSoul]

"All Christians and people of good will are thus called today to struggle not only for abolition of the death penalty, whether it be legal or illegal and in all its forms, but also to improve prison conditions, out of respect for the human dignity of persons deprived of their liberty. And this, I connect with life imprisonment,” he said. “Life imprisonment is a hidden death penalty.”

While Thomas Aquinas defended the execution of heretics in the 13th century, Catholic opposition to the death penalty is not new. Pope John Paul II often advocated its abolition, saying that “modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform.”

The Catechism itself reads: “The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.”" - Pope Francis
"May the death penalty, an unworthy punishment still used in some countries, be abolished throughout the world." (Prayer at the Papal Mass at Regina Coeli Prison in Rome, July 9, 2000). - Pope StJPII

“A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform. I renew the appeal I made most recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary.” (Homily at the Papal Mass in the Trans World Dome, St. Louis, Missouri, January 27, 1999). - Pope StJPII
Pre Pope Francis **"once called abortion a “death sentence” for unborn children, during a 2007 speech and likening opposition to abortion to opposition to the death penalty.

In an October 2, 2007 speech Bergoglio said that “we aren’t in agreement with the death penalty,” but “in Argentina we have the death penalty. A child conceived by the rape of a mentally ill or retarded woman can be condemned to death.**”"
"I greet the distinguished delegations from various countries taking part in the meeting promoted by the Community of Sant’Egidio on the theme: No Justice without Life. I express my hope that your deliberations will encourage the political and legislative initiatives being promoted in a growing number of countries to eliminate the death penalty and to continue the substantive progress made in conforming penal law both to the human dignity of prisoners and the effective maintenance of public order. Upon all the English-speaking pilgrims present, including those from the United States, I invoke God’s blessings of joy and peace!" - Pope Benedict XVI 2001
"Where life is involved, the service of charity must be profoundly consistent. It cannot tolerate bias and discrimination, for human life is sacred and inviolable at every stage and in every situation; it is an indivisible good. We need then to show care for all life and for the life of everyone" (EV, 87).
Note that nobody, nothing and noone is claiming that capital punishment is intrinsically immoral like abortion. It’s morality depends on the three fonts applicable to all moral evaluation. If it is used in service to some agenda not strictly serving the common good… it becomes an immoral taking of a life.

If that hasn’t made the Church’s position clear… then nothing will to those who refuse to see.

 

[estesbob]

. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment**. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.
**

Pope Benedict XVI

 

[SWolf]

. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment**. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.
**

Pope Benedict XVI

Beat me to it. Doesn’t get more clear than that.

 

[LongingSoul]

. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment**. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.
**

Pope Benedict XVI

That oft presented statement in no way negates the very clear position of the Catholic Church on the death penalty in today’s world. The morality of the death penalty has to be discerned by the three fonts and this is arrived at through a process which includes the godly humanitarian view of the Christian Churches. The Catholic Church has put the clear view of the living Magisterium out there for us to embrace through this process.

 

[estesbob]

Beat me to it. Doesn’t get more clear than that.

I oppose the death penalty. But there is no moral equivalence between supporting the death penalty and supporting abortion.

 

[estesbob]

That oft presented statement in no way negates the very clear position of the Catholic Church on the death penalty in today’s world. The morality of the death penalty has to be discerned by the three fonts and this is arrived at through a process which includes the godly humanitarian view of the Christian Churches. The Catholic Church has put the clear view of the living Magisterium out there for us to embrace through this process.

The Church does now and always has in its 2000 year history allowed for the death penalty. As the Pope main crystal-clear support of the death penalty is a matter of prudential judgment

 

[LongingSoul]

The Church does now and always has in its 2000 year history allowed for the death penalty. As the Pope main crystal-clear support of the death penalty is a matter of prudential judgment

The prudential judgement of the Church has more weight to a Catholic than the prudential judgement of Mrs Jones over the back fence and that is the evident belief of the Popes who have urgently, consistently and forcefully called through their own appeals, through the local Bishops conferences and through every Priest I know, to oppose the death penalty. If the papacy were not a living institution of Apostolic succession, ministering Gods will to the people of each age, there would be absolutely no point in continuing to maintain the role. We could just refer back to the Bible alone for our edification.

The position of the Catholic Church for our mission here to do Gods will… is to oppose the death penalty as cruel, unworthy and unnecessary in todays world.

 

[SWolf]

The prudential judgement of the Church has more weight to a Catholic than the prudential judgement of Mrs Jones over the back fence and that is the evident belief of the Popes who have urgently, consistently and forcefully called through their own appeals, through the local Bishops conferences and through every Priest I know, to oppose the death penalty. If the papacy were not a living institution of Apostolic succession, ministering Gods will to the people of each age, there would be absolutely no point in continuing to maintain the role. We could just refer back to the Bible alone for our edification.

The position of the Catholic Church for our mission here to do Gods will… is to oppose the death penalty as cruel, unworthy and unnecessary in todays world.

It is not a sin to support the death penalty.

It is a mortal sin to support abortion.

The Church has made herself abundantly clear the level of moral necessity in the two issues.

 

[estesbob]

The prudential judgement of the Church has more weight to a Catholic than the prudential judgement of Mrs Jones over the back fence and that is the evident belief of the Popes who have urgently, consistently and forcefully called through their own appeals, through the local Bishops conferences and through every Priest I know, to oppose the death penalty. If the papacy were not a living institution of Apostolic succession, ministering Gods will to the people of each age, there would be absolutely no point in continuing to maintain the role. We could just refer back to the Bible alone for our edification.

The position of the Catholic Church for our mission here to do Gods will… is to oppose the death penalty as cruel, unworthy and unnecessary in todays world.

None of which has any bearing on the fact a Catholic can, in good concience, support the death penalty.

 

[LongingSoul]

None of which has any bearing on the fact a Catholic can, in good concience, support the death penalty.

That taken in conjunction with the clear, consistent, forceful urgings of the Church to oppose the death penalty around the world, indicate a path to growth in a mentality of rejecting the death penalty as anti-life. There is a clear call to gradual transformation to abolition of the death penalty.

 

[estesbob]

Ou

That taken in conjunction with the clear, consistent, forceful urgings of the Church to oppose the death penalty around the world, indicate a path to growth in a mentality of rejecting the death penalty as anti-life. There is a clear call to gradual transformation to abolition of the death penalty.

you are preaching to the choir. My concern is we dont misrepresent Church teaching

 

[LongingSoul]

Ou

you are preaching to the choir. My concern is we dont misrepresent Church teaching

That misinterpretation of the Churchs position on the death penalty goes both ways. Some believe it to be equivalent to a divine command rather than a divine permission to be used to serve the common good through human justice.

This was discussed as an issue around the time Australia began rejecting the death penalty in the 1910s and 1920’s. This was an interesting article written for the Catholic paper of the time in 1924 when some believed that human beings had no right to abolish the death penalty.

**"Is the Catholic Church opposed to capital punishment?

This question, thus generally put, must be answered by a decided no. Among the words spoken by God to Noe we find also the following: ‘Whosoever shall shed man’s blood, his blood shall be shed; for man was made to the image of God’ (Gen. ix., 6). In former centuries this was almost considered a divine law. Capital punishment was practised by all Catholic Governments, including the temporal Government of the Popes., when they still had the Papal States. On the other hand, the Church has never opposed the abolition of capital punishment, because she leaves it entirely to the secular authorities to see what penalties shall be inflicted on evil-doers. If in times past the death penalty was resorted to far more frequently than now, we think this was greatly caused by the inefficiency of the police system. Since it was difficult to arrest highway robbers, firebugs, etc., those that were actually caught were punished the more drastically. Whether fewer, such criminals now escape arrest and full punishment than formerly, especially if they are rich, may be questioned. But the fact remains that what we now call the police system was extremely primitive in the days of old. Robbery on a grand scale, formerly conducted by a liberal use of physical violence, is now carried on in a more refined manner, though the effect is the same. It is left to the secular authorities to determine whether capital punishment is to be extended to other crimes beside actual murder, or is to be abolished altogether. So much seems to be sure, that the number of those has not died out who will be deterred from committing great crimes by nothing short of death."**

Freeman’s Journal (Sydney, NSW : 1850 – 1932) (Later to become the Catholic Weekly still being printed today)
trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/123253640

Australia opposed the death penalty as cruel and biased and not serving humanitarian goals. That is the most important consideration for determining its value to human justice.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Swift executions have been done throughout history. Just because our current practitioners can’t get it right doesn’t discount their use.

Like I said, the Death Penalty is prudential, Abortion is not. Being pro-life does not require opposition to the death penalty.

Also, to be clear, I am against the Death Penalty in the US. However, in no way do I think a person who supports the Death Penalty to be less Pro-Life. Clumping the two together dilutes the message.

Clumping the two together, exposes the fact that “all human life” is NOT sacred to an ostensible “pro-lifer” who uses that as their battle cry.

The difference is, in the case of abortion, the baby is “inconvenient.” In the case of the death penalty, the criminal is not only “inconvenient,” but we have deemed them no longer worthy of life even though we go to great expense to kill them compared to feeding and housing them. Society spends much more time, effort, and tons more money trying to kill criminals than the ones not given the death penalty. So society actually bleeds money, so that it can see its bloody revenge. That’s really what’s happening here. We don’t believe the teachings of Jesus not to repay evil with evil.

Because it “feels so good” when somebody “really bad” gets executed. Like society has just flushed the toilet on another bit of human waste.

It all feeds the sickness Jesus tried to teach us how to avoid.

 

[Darryl1958]

If refraining from supporting the death penalty would have American Catholics refrain from voting for the Party of Death that supports abortion, that is a change in policy that most Catholic supporters of the death penalty would make in a heart beat.

When it comes to a choice between the two, the life of the unborn is more important than supporting the death penalty for murderers.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

None of which has any bearing on the fact a Catholic can, in good concience, support the death penalty.

True. A Catholic can, and in fact a Catholic can even decide to take “rather lightly” the conditions described within the CCC for such an execution takes place.

My whole point, though, is that being against all abortion, and simultaneously in favor of the death penalty is inconsistent by my personal standards, which no longer echo the pro-death penalty mentality of the mainstream pro-lifers. I learned this from one of the greatest and best known pro-lifers around who was a rep in our state, and even visited the most infamous abortion clinics when invited. He was also a fellow parishioner so I got to talk to him at meetings, and when I was elected as a pro-life conservative I got a chance to work with him. Out of all the pro-lifers I knew of, he had the greatest integrity and he was the one who helped change my mind because I was staunchly pro-death penalty when I was first elected in 1994 and worked grass roots to help the Reps take over Congress that year under Newt Gingrich and the “Contract with America.”

So yes, there is a way to believe that in good conscience. BUT …

If someone’s reason for being pro-life is that “all human life is sacred” and yet they support routing use of the death penalty, then I say they are confused at best, and a liar at worst. Because clearly whether “all human life” is sacred, then becomes a matter of human interpretation and even using the word “sacred” in that context makes me cringe. Because we are making human decisions and attributing them to God, which is just as dangerous to me than a pack of animals with no “divine” leader, because at least the animals are not operating under the pretense that what they are doing is for a “greater good.”

If refraining from supporting the death penalty would have American Catholics refrain from voting for the Party of Death that supports abortion, that is a change in policy that most Catholic supporters of the death penalty would make in a heart beat.

When it comes to a choice between the two, the life of the unborn is more important than supporting the death penalty for murderers.

I have never heard of a case when there had to be a decision made between taking the life of a convicted murderer, or for someone to have an abortion. What would that be like, a pregnant woman on death row?

That taken in conjunction with the clear, consistent, forceful urgings of the Church to oppose the death penalty around the world, indicate a path to growth in a mentality of rejecting the death penalty as anti-life. There is a clear call to gradual transformation to abolition of the death penalty.

 

[Darryl1958]

I have never heard of a case when there had to be a decision made between taking the life of a convicted murderer, or for someone to have an abortion. What would that be like, a pregnant woman on death row?

The post was about political stances, lest there be any doubt of the priorities between the two.