Under Pope Francis, American Catholics see the ‘pro-life’ label as broader than abortion

[SWolf]

Your reference to those of us involved in the pro-life ministry as “anti-abortion activists” speaks volumes. This is nothing more than a political issue to you. I can assure you in my years in counseling women at a CPC that the “death penalty” never came up-not once. You denigrate those who are dedicated to this ministry because they are not pure enough for you. At least that is what you say. Your comments and the vocabulary you use in your posts is not indicative of any pro-life adherent I know of You use the same arguments and vocabulary as Democrat Catholics who come here and assure us that those of us in the ministry are at the least dupes and the most hypocrites(or both).

We are not a “mess” We who are involved in the ministry have made great strides in liming this evil and educating the public as to how evil abortion is. Meanwhile other so called “supporters” stand on the sidelines denigrating our efforts while hiding behind semantics and questioning our morals.

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[Mystical_Seeker]

Your reference to those of us involved in the pro-life ministry as “anti-abortion activists” speaks volumes.

The fact that you didn’t even notice I referred to so-called “pro-choicers” as “pro-aborts” speaks volumes to me.

This is nothing more than a political issue to you.

You are wrong. But as a political issue, it’s one we will never win going at it the way “we” are now.

I can assure you in my years in counseling women at a CPC that the “death penalty” never came up-not once.

Why would it? How does that connect in with anything?

You denigrate those who are dedicated to this ministry because they are not pure enough for you.

No. I denigrate people who say “all human life is sacred” and therefore we have no right to kill them, when in fact they mean “only certain human life” meets that criterion.

The question was, is “pro-life” bigger than just abortion. Are you saying the answer is “no?” That all “pro-life” actually means to you is a political movement against abortion? I think you’re looking in a mirror or something here.

We are not a “mess” We who are involved in the ministry have made great strides in liming this evil and educating the public as to how evil abortion is. Meanwhile other so called “supporters” stand on the sidelines denigrating our efforts while hiding behind semantics and questioning our morals.

You may be right.

 

[zz912]

Your reference to those of us involved in the pro-life ministry as “anti-abortion activists” speaks volumes. This is nothing more than a political issue to you. I can assure you in my years in counseling women at a CPC that the “death penalty” never came up-not once. You denigrate those who are dedicated to this ministry because they are not pure enough for you. At least that is what you say. Your comments and the vocabulary you use in your posts is not indicative of any pro-life adherent I know of You use the same arguments and vocabulary as Democrat Catholics who come here and assure us that those of us in the ministry are at the least dupes and the most hypocrites(or both).

We are not a “mess” We who are involved in the ministry have made great strides in liming this evil and educating the public as to how evil abortion is. Meanwhile other so called “supporters” stand on the sidelines denigrating our efforts while hiding behind semantics and questioning our morals.

 

[zz912]

In Aus. a priest talking political parties rather than moral issues would be censured. That surely doesn’t seem appropriate behaviour for a Cardinal.

So there is no moral evil that a political party supports that a priest, bishop or pope should speak out about? Are there ANY political parties that you can think of that should be or should have been condemned by a priest, bishop or pope?

What happens when politcal parties and topics deal with moral issues?

 

[estesbob]

The fact that you didn’t even notice I referred to so-called “pro-choicers” as “pro-aborts” speaks volumes to me.

You are wrong. But as a political issue, it’s one we will never win going at it the way “we” are now.

Why would it? How does that connect in with anything?

No. I denigrate people who say “all human life is sacred” and therefore we have no right to kill them, when in fact they mean “only certain human life” meets that criterion.

The question was, is “pro-life” bigger than just abortion. Are you saying the answer is “no?” That all “pro-life” actually means to you is a political movement against abortion? I think you’re looking in a mirror or something here.

You may be right.

In my 35 plus years active in the pro-life ministry it has always amazed me that more venom has been directed at me by people who claim to be pro-life than those who support abortion. It is always amazing that people who have no involvement in the ministry are so quick to tell those of us who are what we are doing wrong and how much better we would do if we would only listened to those who are not involved.

 

[Suudy]

Is there even a single poster who identifies as “pro-lifer” on this thread, and who thinks “all human life is sacred” but still supports the death penalty?

Ender already answered this. All lives are sacred, but not all lives are inviolate. This is explored more in this article by Avery Cardinal Dulles.

Further, the pro-life discussion is about innocent human life, which is very different from those convicted of capital offenses. The Catechism points again to this (emphasis mine):

CCC 2258 “Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: **no one can under any circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being.”

The sacred nature of human life is not the primary argument against abortion and other pro-life positions. It is the fact that innocent human is to be held inviolate. It an unspoken tenet, but the innocence of the victims of abortion is primary.

 

[estesbob]

So there is no moral evil that a political party supports that a priest, bishop or pope should speak out about? Are there ANY political parties that you can think of that should be or should have been condemned by a priest, bishop or pope?

What happens when politcal parties and topics deal with moral issues?

I would hate t see stating the obvious become illegal. Reminds me of a sermon our Polish pastor gave a few years back. he roundly condemned abortion and those who support it. After Mass a parishioner told him that him being from Poland meant he didn’t understand the extent of free speech we have in this Country. He replied “and you are also free to go to hell”.

 

[LongingSoul]

Your reference to those of us involved in the pro-life ministry as “anti-abortion activists” speaks volumes. This is nothing more than a political issue to you. I can assure you in my years in counseling women at a CPC that the “death penalty” never came up-not once. You denigrate those who are dedicated to this ministry because they are not pure enough for you. At least that is what you say. Your comments and the vocabulary you use in your posts is not indicative of any pro-life adherent I know of You use the same arguments and vocabulary as Democrat Catholics who come here and assure us that those of us in the ministry are at the least dupes and the most hypocrites(or both).

We are not a “mess” We who are involved in the ministry have made great strides in liming this evil and educating the public as to how evil abortion is. Meanwhile other so called “supporters” stand on the sidelines denigrating our efforts while hiding behind semantics and questioning our morals.

What does saying “anti-abortion activist” speak volumes of? The distinction in this thread has to be made because it doesn’t reflect what the Church means by saying “pro life” if you are pro death penalty.

The new evangelization calls for followers of Christ who are unconditionally pro-life: who will proclaim, celebrate and serve the Gospel of life in every situation. A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. . . . I renew the appeal I made . . . for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary.
—Pope John Paul II January 27, 1999

 

[LongingSoul]

Since you have already said that you would kill someone in a heartbeat under the right circumstances, your argument no longer holds. Your criticism of hypocrite, liar or ignorant fool applies to you as well, according to your own logic.

Even if a human life is sacred, death indeed is sometimes the answer. There are times when even you would impose the death sentence on somebody- in a heart beat.

Technically Mystical Seeker said he/she would ‘shoot’ someone in a heartbeat… not kill them. It isn’t permitted to kill someone in self defense. You are permitted to protect yourself with proportionate force and if that results in the aggressors death you are not culpable of murder. This is a uniquely American conundrum where your laws permit you to carry weapons designed to kill, around in your pockets which leads you to feel that you are indeed entitled to kill in self defense.

 

[LongingSoul]

So there is no moral evil that a political party supports that a priest, bishop or pope should speak out about? Are there ANY political parties that you can think of that should be or should have been condemned by a priest, bishop or pope?

What happens when politcal parties and topics deal with moral issues?

They are obliged to talk about moral issues and the Catholic perspective and even encourage activism… but to effectively endorse or dis-endorse particular political parties is not within the purview of Catholic mission.

 

[estesbob]

What does saying “anti-abortion activist” speak volumes of? The distinction in this thread has to be made because it doesn’t reflect what the Church means by saying “pro life” if you are pro death penalty.

The new evangelization calls for followers of Christ who are unconditionally pro-life: who will proclaim, celebrate and serve the Gospel of life in every situation. A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. . . . I renew the appeal I made . . . for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary.
—Pope John Paul II January 27, 1999

So do you believe that there is moral equivalence between supporting the death penalty and supporting abortion? Our Church doesn’t.

 

[LongingSoul]

So do you believe that there is moral equivalence between supporting the death penalty and supporting abortion? Our Church doesn’t.

Of course not. But do you not believe that the Church has specifically called opposition to the death penalty a pro-life stance?

 

[estesbob]

Of course not. But do you not believe that the Church has specifically called opposition to the death penalty a pro-life stance?

And what is the problem with someone active in the pro-life ministry supporting the Death penalty?

 

[LongingSoul]

In my 35 plus years active in the pro-life ministry it has always amazed me that more venom has been directed at me by people who claim to be pro-life than those who support abortion. It is always amazing that people who have no involvement in the ministry are so quick to tell those of us who are what we are doing wrong and how much better we would do if we would only listened to those who are not involved.

I’m really not seeing Mystical Seekers position as venomous towards you?? What it appears from reading post after post from this string… is that you don’t want to accept the Churchs clear position that opposing the death penalty is a justifiable pro life position. It’s like you aren’t coming out and just saying that you disagree with the Church on that… but are doing some damage control in order to safeguard the American institution of the death penalty.

 

[LongingSoul]

And what is the problem with someone active in the pro-life ministry supporting the Death penalty?

Thats a logical fallacy. The attack position here is that opposing the death penalty should not be considered a pro-life issue. The defense position is that the Church has called it that because of how the culture of death is fed by justification for the death penalty, leading to a numbing of the horror of taking life in abortion.

 

[zz912]

They are obliged to talk about moral issues and the Catholic perspective and even encourage activism… but to effectively endorse or dis-endorse particular political parties is not within the purview of Catholic mission.

So you would have condemned a priest, bishop or the pope for dis-endorsing or condemning the Nazi party, or the Communist Party?

Do you also oppose the encyclicals Quod Apostolici Muneris and Rerum Novarum?

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

In my 35 plus years active in the pro-life ministry it has always amazed me that more venom has been directed at me by people who claim to be pro-life than those who support abortion. It is always amazing that people who have no involvement in the ministry are so quick to tell those of us who are what we are doing wrong and how much better we would do if we would only listened to those who are not involved.

No involvement in the ministry. I was elected in 1994 by the people in my precinct, to represent the pro-life, conservative faction of the Republican party in my county. We “conservatives” held on by a vote of around 118 to 114 to keep the “moderates” (aka liberals) from taking over our district. I walked the precinct, knocking on doors of registered Republicans, to get them to vote for the conservative pro-life candidates in the primaries. I gave them literature. I heard their stories both for and against abortion. We took over Congress that year, and I had the delight to celebrate at our new US Congressman’s victory party – a staunchly pro-life candidate.

I don’t need to insult your intelligence; you insult your own intelligence with your assumptions about me and your refusal to deal with the questions I’m asking you on a meaningful basis. I’m not impressed by how long you’ve been in service when you can’t even deal with the OP issue of whether pro-life expands beyond “anti-abortion legislation.” And apparently that’s all you think pro-life is, even though you insulted me (incorrectly) for supposedly saying just that.

It’s amazing to me how people are so identified with a particular group and the “common themes” the group states, that if you ask them a question there isn’t an answer for, they get hostile and call upon how many years they’ve been doing this to distract from the fact that they are inconsistent on what they claim is sacred and what that implies. Go ahead and follow the wide path and say what hasn’t changed Roe v Wade in more years than you say you have been working the problem.

We did get rid of one really infamous elective late-term abortionist in our state. Some “nutcase” blew his head off because he thought that he was killing a murderer – his personal form of “capital punishment” for the abortion provider. Of course all the “pro-lifers” had to say how tragic that was and how it isn’t justified. Pullleeze… behind the scenes they were overjoyed.

 

[SWolf]

We did get rid of one really infamous elective late-term abortionist in our state. Some “nutcase” blew his head off because he thought tihat he was killing a murderer – his personal form of “capital punishment” for the abortion provider. Of course all the “pro-lifers” had to say how tragic that was and how it isn’t justified. Pullleeze… behind the scenes they were overjoyed.

Keep talking. These posts only reinforce the point of estesbob about the venom being thrown at the pro-life movement.

 

[Darryl1958]

I do not disagree with your reasoning, because you make sense. I’m not the one saying “all human life is sacred.” At least if that means I can never “remove” the life from a human without sinning.

I’m calling out people who abuse that slogan by applying it to abortion but not death penalty.

This has been a problem between the Eastern and Western Catholic Churches that really showed up during the Crusades. When Crusaders arrived in Constantinople from the West, people were quite aghast at how there could be men holding a Bible under one arm, and a battle axe in the other. It is not as if people in the East were not violent-they were- but they had developed a special class of holiness in which the saints were expected to be unstained by the necessity of spilling blood and other unsavory activity.
It is a very difficult concept to grasp, how our whole society and existence is founded in sin, and how even the holiest of men cannot exist apart from a society that ensures even their existence through blood.
Original sin hints at such a state, where over and above our own personal shortcoming, sin lies at the core of our existence, at the core of our being able to exist even. It is not just a metaphoric truth that we live on the blood of the slain lamb.
To kill is evil, because all life is sacred. To not kill however, can sometimes be the greater evil, We know that intuitively when we protect those who will do harm to the ones that we love.

 

[LongingSoul]

So you would have condemned a priest, bishop or the pope for dis-endorsing or condemning the Nazi party, or the Communist Party?

Firstly, I said ‘censured’ not condemned and secondly, it is right and proper to theologically examine political philosophies like socialism, fascism, capitalism for error or evil… without endorsing/dis-endorsing particular parties.

Do you also oppose the encyclicals Quod Apostolici Muneris and Rerum Novarum?

If you could just cut and paste the parts you are referring to regarding endorsing or otherwise, particular parties.